I'm split between this going in homebrew and advice, so I flipped a coin and here we are.
I'm strongly considering converting a Paizo AP (omitted for spoiler and length reasons) to PF2e, but I need a lawful evil champion. I thought about trying some multiclass shenanigans but it felt insincere.
Does anyone have any thoughts on how to do this, keeping as closely as possible to the champion as written? I'm keeping all the proficiencies and whatnot the same, just changing out the cause and any feats that are alignment based. Waiting for a book with evil champions to be published is not a satisfying and likely not a viable option.
For the sake of specificity, I'm creating a LE "tyrant" champion of Asmodeus. I know I could just make a cleric, but the character is supposed to be charismatic not wise (and also the BBEG). I may have said too much here...
If there's a thread that already covers/discusses this, feel free to link me. I've already seen the evil code/anathema thread, which was cool.
I'll potentially update as I come up with my own variant, but any advise or thoughts are welcome.
Feel free to flag this if you think it's in the wrong thread.
These are good ideas. Another possibility is something along the lines of a reactive intimidating glare, but it can actually make enemies flee or whatever.
For a different alignment, a reaction that pulls a minion or ally into the path of harm's way would be hilarious. In this case, I don't think it fits a tyrant.
Maybe they throw down a fear effect and give their allies a +1 bonus to hit the person for 1 round or something?
Another note here is that if the character is allied to Hell or Hellknights, you might allow the champion to choose between evil and lawful damage. Most Hell-aligned creatures and factions hate demons as much as they hate celestials.
Well, looking at the tyranny domain (as we're making a tyrant) the abilities focus around compelling targets to do things against their will. The flavor around devils from the Bestiary focuses on orchestrating complex evil plans and tempting mortals with infernal offers. Pit fiends, if used as a model, have abilities and flavor centered around fire, commanding those beneath you, and bending them to your will (shaping lemures, creating one being out of several souls, seems to be the ultimate in literally bending others to your will).
So the main takeaway from these sources is that a LE champion would probably force their will on enemies and allies alike, using whatever they have at their disposal to achieve their goals.
Another note here is that if the character is allied to Hell or Hellknights, you might allow the champion to choose between evil and lawful damage. Most Hell-aligned creatures and factions hate demons as much as they hate celestials.
According to AoN (bottom of the page, Fiendish Relations) they don't loathe demons, and just see them as obnoxious and maybe pitiful. They are willing to work with them if it furthers the devil's goals.
Another note here is that if the character is allied to Hell or Hellknights, you might allow the champion to choose between evil and lawful damage. Most Hell-aligned creatures and factions hate demons as much as they hate celestials.According to AoN (bottom of the page, Fiendish Relations) they don't loathe demons, and just see them as obnoxious and maybe pitiful. They are willing to work with them if it furthers the devil's goals.
Huh. Seems like they're making an intentional departure in lore from their 3.5 roots and Blood War assumptions.
Another note here is that if the character is allied to Hell or Hellknights, you might allow the champion to choose between evil and lawful damage. Most Hell-aligned creatures and factions hate demons as much as they hate celestials.According to AoN (bottom of the page, Fiendish Relations) they don't loathe demons, and just see them as obnoxious and maybe pitiful. They are willing to work with them if it furthers the devil's goals.
Not that Paizo has ever published contradictory material, but my understanding of the relationship between devils and demons (and daemons) is fairly adversarial, though nothing like the blood war.
I would say that there is a pretty big difference between a hellknight (paragon of law, leaning evil) and a tyrant, paragon of evil and law but evil first.
I think we should save lawful attacks for whatever the lawful champion turns out to be...
PS: will the chaotic neutral champion just be called an adventurer?
Another note here is that if the character is allied to Hell or Hellknights, you might allow the champion to choose between evil and lawful damage. Most Hell-aligned creatures and factions hate demons as much as they hate celestials.According to AoN (bottom of the page, Fiendish Relations) they don't loathe demons, and just see them as obnoxious and maybe pitiful. They are willing to work with them if it furthers the devil's goals.Not that Paizo has ever published contradictory material, but my understanding of the relationship between devils and demons (and daemons) is fairly adversarial, though nothing like the blood war.
I would say that there is a pretty big difference between a hellknight (paragon of law, leaning evil) and a tyrant, paragon of evil and law but evil first.
I think we should save lawful attacks for whatever the lawful champion turns out to be...
PS: will the chaotic neutral champion just be called an adventurer?
Anarchist, maybe? Considering that chaos-aligned weapons are called Anarchic.
I'm sort of wondering if we won't have intersecting subclasses for the champion.
Like we have three subclasses that follow the tenets of good for LG, NG, and CG. But we could have three subclasses for the tenets of evil (LE, NE, CE), but also three subclasses for the tenets of law (LG, LN, LE) and three subclasses for the tenets of chaos (CG, CN, CE).
I'm sort of wondering if we won't have intersecting subclasses for the champion.
Like we have three subclasses that follow the tenets of good for LG, NG, and CG. But we could have three subclasses for the tenets of evil (LE, NE, CE), but also three subclasses for the tenets of law (LG, LN, LE) and three subclasses for the tenets of chaos (CG, CN, CE).
That would actually be fantastic, but my feeling is that we'd just get good champions, evil champions, and a single champion each for LN and CN.
What I'm most hoping to see is variant champions whose tenets aren't tied to aligned deities at all, but rather to faiths, like how clerics are (a class archetype would be a good way to implement this). I can't really see true neutral having any kind of unifying tenet to itself, but a TN holy warrior that smites undead for Pharasma is the sort of thing you should be able to play. In addition it could cover champions who worship pantheons, animist spirits, ancestors, and similar forms of religion that don't correspond to a henotheistic worldview.
The ability to customize smites to do other things other than alignment damage would be highly welcome. It's up there for me along with with variant channeling that do things other than positive and negative energy.
I really hope we get the four tenets of good, evil, lawful, and chaotic. A paladin would work with the CG Liberator but never with the LE. It matter evens more in regards with Neutral gods because before all Neutral gods just accepted evil as a natural state of things.
Now when Neutral Gods like Pharasma don't allow evil but Lawful Gods like Abadar do can a Paladin worship a God no longer forced to accept evil. With Tenets of Lawfulness the Lg/Ln/Le versions can work together against Chaotic forces.
I really hope we get the four tenets of good, evil, lawful, and chaotic. A paladin would work with the CG Liberator but never with the LE. It matter evens more in regards with Neutral gods because before all Neutral gods just accepted evil as a natural state of things.
Now when Neutral Gods like Pharasma don't allow evil but Lawful Gods like Abadar do can a Paladin worship a God no longer forced to accept evil. With Tenets of Lawfulness the Lg/Ln/Le versions can work together against Chaotic forces.
I actually hate how alignment rules became MORE restrictive than in 1e, because edicts and anathema already serve as a far better system to force clerics and champions to adhere to their deity's worldviews than even alignment itself. It feels rather unnecessary and heavy-handed to tack on more restrictions than that, and frankly removes nuance.
Wanting alternative smites (eg. positive energy smites for Pharasma, or fire smites for Sarenrae) is actually part of that. I don't care what the "canon" rules are for PFS, but give us variant options for home games that don't necessarily use the same strictness -- especially since alignment removal is an acknowledged variant way of playing this game.
Although that went rather off topic.
Back on topic for the moment: for a champion of Asmodeus, I can see smites doing evil, lawful, and fire damage (lawful damage in case you have a CN character in the party). Radiant Blade Spirit seems particularly suited in this case.
I can also see a reverse version of Litany of Sacrifice where he forces a creature to take damage or accept a failed saving throw in his stead, with another save if the creature is unwilling. Your choice of whether he uses it against a PC or on a "willing" slave.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think there's a real chance we get lots of subclasses/tenets. On Arcane Mark on Saturday, Mark Seifter mentioned the possibility of a "Tenets of Mortality" for a Champion of Rahadoum. So we could have Champions of the Green, Champions of your People, etc.
For a different alignment, a reaction that pulls a minion or ally into the path of harm's way would be hilarious. In this case, I don't think it fits a tyrant.
Maybe they throw down a fear effect and give their allies a +1 bonus to hit the person for 1 round or something?
It may not usually fit a tyrant but arguably fits the particular “tyrant” you are referring to
And remember that you don’t need necessarily build an enemy NPC as a PC. In fact I would advise you don’t because in addition they will fall behind on expected numbers for the “Level”
As an example there is a level 3 human enemy in plaguestone who I am pretty sure if you tried to build as a fighter you could never get all the numbers and abilities. His attack exceeds a level 3 fighter (albeit by 1) but he also gets rogue level sneak and two other abilities . So it doesn’t all add up
So what you is look for the level you want and find the benchmark numbers and tweak to what you think best fits the enemy theme
For stats I think you probably do use a character build as a basis
Then you give the enemy the special abilities (and spells if necessary) that you want . And as a key villain you don’t need to be strictly confined to the number a PC could take
Which I appreciate may not have been the most helpful answer . But I think most enemies in 2E are going to be differentiated by their special abilities and items rather than the numbers
Tyrant is a big change from the proposed play style of the villain in question
As to the reaction - something that hurts an enemy making the attack rather than taking damage off maybe? But champion reactions are all about assisting allies which I am not sure if fully in the wheelhouse of the character in question ...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, looking at the tyranny domain (as we're making a tyrant) the abilities focus around compelling targets to do things against their will. The flavor around devils from the Bestiary focuses on orchestrating complex evil plans and tempting mortals with infernal offers. Pit fiends, if used as a model, have abilities and flavor centered around fire, commanding those beneath you, and bending them to your will (shaping lemures, creating one being out of several souls, seems to be the ultimate in literally bending others to your will).
So the main takeaway from these sources is that a LE champion would probably force their will on enemies and allies alike, using whatever they have at their disposal to achieve their goals.
Perhaps their reaction can center around foisting effects onto their party members, but with something rewarding them doing so? A minicontract. "Eat this save for me and I'll give you a bonus on damage rolls." Or the like.
Actually,
Infernal Bargain Reaction
Champion
Trigger You are damaged and an ally is within fifteen feet of you.You forge a pact with a willing ally. When you take damage from an attack, your ally may choose to accept half of the damage in your stead. If they do so, you or your ally (your choice) gains resistance to all damage from the triggering attack equal to 2 plus your level. The ally then gains a +1 status bonus on attack and damage to the enemy who triggered Infernal Bargain until the end of your next turn.
Divine Smite Level 9
The ally who accepted damage on your behalf gains bonus evil damage to all of their attacks equal to your charisma modifier against the enemy who triggered the attack until the end of your next turn.Exalt Level 11
Multiple allies may share in your profane gifts. Any number of allies may choose to gain the status bonus to attack and damage rolls, not only the ally you offered your bargain to. Any allies that do so take damage equal to the resistance this reaction grants.
I really like this!
To get very specific, spoilers for a certain AP set in Cheliax...
In PF1e I made him a heartless invincible(M) tyrant antipaladin 16 with fast healing 10. At that level, he needs it if he wants to solo fight a party of five who are over level and over WBL. Plus it reflects his transition to a Genius Loci.
But to the point, I'm making him a 16th level champion (tyrant) with normal WBL plus:
Fast healing 10, Resist Physical (all) 5, Resist all energy 10, +1 status bonus on all saves, 32 temporary hp when reduced to 0 1/day, mythic surge 1d6 5/day, auto-stabilize, greater darkvision, immune fear.
His stats are:
STR 25 +7
DEX 20 +5
CON 22 +6
INT 14 +2
WIS 16 +3
CHA 24 +7
This includes a +4 to all his stats, applied at the end.
His +3 greater striking flaming adamantine mace is also an intelligent evil item, and hellguille will be one of his divine allies (the other will be a blade spirit). He also has +1 striking composite longbow as backup.
I'm worried (as I'm still very new, but looking at the bestiary) that as a primarily melee character he'll lack the damage to face off against a level 13 party? Unlike the AP as written, I want the Barzillai fight to be epic and require isolating him from his allies instead of just ganking him in the big temple brawl.
EDIT: he's also a multclass sorcerer (diabolic). So he's got a few tricks up his sleeve.
I'm really leaning to the idea of him forcing enemy attacks against an ally or minion, but giving them a temporary boost to resistance.
I think if you give him the attack numbers of an average level 16 creature then he will give a level 13 party a hard time
I think level gaps are supposed to much more serious in this edition
He should have +33 to hit
I think someone with expert armour and no shield is AC37. So anyone except the fighter and champion is probably getting crit
And he would go after them first
Give him scare to death as well as intimidation should be a thing
I think if you give him the attack numbers of an average level 16 creature then he will give a level 13 party a hard time
I think level gaps are supposed to much more serious in this edition
He should have +33 to hit
I think someone with expert armour and no shield is AC37. So anyone except the fighter and champion is probably getting crit
And he would go after them first
Give him scare to death as well as intimidation should be a thing
I did in fact him him scare to death as well as a whole set of intimidation and deception feats.
See if there aren other level 16 primary melee characters in the bestiary and see what kind of action economy boosting special abilities they have ...
It has made me interested to look myself now
I assume a Tyrant would still be tanky? It's worth considering what kind of gameplay different champion reactions facilitate.
Good champions currently operate under the paradigm of "Hitting me is a bad idea, because I'm tanky" + "Hitting my friends is a bad idea, I have a reaction". This is what allows them to be effective tanks, instead of every enemy just ignoring them and going for the backline.
I think the idea of flipping the reaction around and having it trigger when you are hit is pretty cool, but the class would probably need some kind of incentive to attack you in that case. Perhaps evil Champions become more powerful if they didn't take damage last round? Or something.
An unrelated random idea I had for a capstone feat (since people were talking about devilish bargains and such) was the ability to give allies an action, but you get to control them during that action. It's up to them if they accept the bargain or not... Basically it'd be the fighter perma-haste capstone, but instead of getting an extra action every turn you get an extra action you can give away.
For those interested, link to my Hell's Rebels 2e Conversion Thread.