Player vs another player ( party member or simply an npc created by the DM )


Rules Discussion


A flaw of this system appears when you are put against a "non monster" NPC, or simply whenever you have to deal in a not peaceful way with a party member.

To make things easier, I am gonna confront lvl 20 characters with no equipment.

Let's say that a caster want to cast a spell on an npc ( same lvl ) or a player ( same lvl ):

His/Her cd will be 20+10+7 ( 22 score ) + 8 ( legendary rank ) = CD 45

The character who has been targeted by the spell will have to roll against it.

1d20 +20 + 4 ( let's suppose that the player have +4 on the needed stat ) + 4/6 ( depends if the target is expert or master ) = BONUS ROLL +28/30

Here comes the problem:

A master TS player will have a 25% chance of success.
An expert TS player will have a 15% chance of success.

Imagine now if the player doesn't have +4 on the TS stat.

PS: I used a SPELL, but an athletics/deception check would have been the same.

Obviously, against a monster the whole game is more or less ok ( monsters seem to be a little underpower to me, but still have to make tries so it could be just a feeling ).

How could this be fixed?
I am looking for suggestions, in order to fix it.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Skills, spells, and other abilities that you specialize in tend to skew in your favor at high levels.

That's by design. If everything was 50/50 from level 1 to 20, there wouldn't be much point in leveling up. There has to be some progression. Therefore, looking only at level 20 isn't going to be terribly representative of the overall game.

All else being the same, it generally comes down to proficiency and ability scores (or as I see it, training and talent) to determine who is better at a given task.

I would suggest revising your observational methods before declaring that you've discovered flaws that need to be fixed.


Ravingdork wrote:

Skills, spells, and other abilities that you specialize in tend to skew in your favor at high levels.

That's by design. If everything was 50/50 from level 1 to 20, there wouldn't be much point in leveling up. There has to be some progression. Therefore, looking only at level 20 isn't going to be terribly representative of the overall game.

All else being the same, it generally comes down to proficiency and ability scores (or as I see it, training and talent) to determine who is better at a given task.

I would suggest revising your observational methods before declaring that you've discovered flaws that need to be fixed.

Well the thing is that at level 1 the difference in between two characters will typically be 4 points at a maximum (both trained, one has an 18 the other a 10 in the stat in question). This means that the 10 stat char needs a 14+ in order to beat the others DC. Thats a 35% chance on a d20 roll, quite high but very well doable.

On level 20 the difference is more likely to be 11 points (4 via proficiency difference, 7 via stat difference) so the 10 stat char can only succeed when he rolls a nat 20, respectively most of the time he only rolls to determine his degree of failure.

So while you might still be able to fend off an enemy caster with a couple of lucky rolls at low level, you can not hope to do so at high level.

I am not a huge fan of this mechanic myself, however the mechanic is inherent to the design and respresents ever increasing specialisation, so I would not call it a flaw.


The fact that is a flaw is clear.
I just underlined it in order to share thoughts with other users.

Asking my players to make a ts with 90% failure against because reasons ( and because reasons mean that you don't have any choice in invest towards that specific goal ) simply sucks.

I will eventually lower the cd, but not following the rules.
And, to be hones, it pisses me off when I have to.

But I concede you that could be just me.

That said,

A 50/50 only occour with a dex player with legendary reflex ( same dex as spellcaster casting stat, and legendary in that ST, as the caster is legendary in his spellcasting ability ).

This is simply perfect.

However, leaving apart the fact that you can't decide to specialize in more than master in ts, this is something which requires you to play a rogue, a ranger or a warrior ( dex based ofc ).

Working towards a 50/50 to a specific TS is not possible, and that's imho the issue.

Being able to deal 50/50 with a caster, without bonuses from items, "IN A SPECIFIC ST" ( which means the caster will have advantages in the others 2 ) seems only legit to me, and won't be terribly representative of the overall game as you wrongly claimed.

@Ubertron X: I call it a flaw because instead it works good vs monsters. So it's something which only concerns interactions between players and other players/NPC ( with a character progression ).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, I'm still not seeing it as a problem. More often than not a legendary caster with a maxed out relevant ability score should be kicking the crap out of people with only expert or master saves and a moderate relevant ability score.

Not a bug so much as it is a feature of the game. As such, I don't think any amount of advice is really going to be all that helpful to you. I'm sorry that it doesn't fit your mental image of what the game should be.


I don't understand if you don't get what I am writing or just misunderstand it.

I am saying that a wizard should be able to kick those who are less proficient in their ST.

Which means:

1- the enemy has a lower stat, meant for the specific ST, if compared to the caster's spellcasting ability

2- the enemy has a lower grade in ST

Which means, if you don't have the same stats as the caster, it is legit that you don't have a 50/50 against it.

That said, we lack options to pursue that goal.

It doesn't matter how hard I train towards will or fortitude, if I can't hit Legendary in one of them.

The best result one could get is a -2, which is a 40% success.

Guess now my point should be clear.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Barbarians, Bards, Monks Rogues, and Rangers can all get Legendary saving throws and, all else being the same, could match the spellcasting DCs for 50/50.

Champions and monks can get legendary training in various armor or unarmored and, all else being equivalent, could match the spellcaster's spell attacks for 50/50.

Others are going to have a hard time of it, as will any who don't boost the relevant stats, but that seems to me to be the intent rather than a flaw.

Sorry if I'm still not understanding you properly. Math is secondary to my artistic mind.

Have you run the numbers for other levels, or just level 20? I think that might reveal some interesting insights.


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You shorted the success rates by 5% (+30 VS DC 45 is a 30% chance, not 25%), and you also didn't include the Resilience rune, which all characters are expected to have and which gives +3 to saves by 20th level (you said no equipment, but characters are always supposed to have this so that isn't a reasonable comparison - there is no equivalent for increasing spell DC, so it is purely a bonus to success rate. (You also gave the caster a +7 ability modifier, which requires an item)). So the actual success rate for a Master character is 45%, 35% for an Expert character.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FowlJ wrote:
You shorted the success rates by 5% (+30 VS DC 45 is a 30% chance, not 25%), and you also didn't include the Resilience rune, which all characters are expected to have and which gives +3 to saves by 20th level (you said no equipment, but characters are always supposed to have this so that isn't a reasonable comparison - there is no equivalent for increasing spell DC, so it is purely a bonus to success rate. (You also gave the caster a +7 ability modifier, which requires an item)). So the actual success rate for a Master character is 45%, 35% for an Expert character.

Yeah, there are a number of issues with how the OP is running the numbers.


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legendary caster:
+7 stat (24)
+28 proficiency
=
+35

so, his DC is 45 (with 24 ability score, not with 22)

Normal level 20 Npc save:
16 stat and Master proficiency:
+3
+26
+3
=
+33

Weak level 20 save:

a level 20 npc with expert is a save and a 14 in an ability score:
+2 stat
+24 proficiency
+3 item
=
+29

Strong level 20 save:
+6 stat
+26-28 proficiency
+3 item
+1 circumstance
=
+36-38

i do not see any issues with those numbers.

I expect a spread of around 35-80% success rate for a caster depending if he targets a Strong save or a Weak save.

seems fine.

Sovereign Court

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K1 wrote:
To make things easier, I am gonna confront lvl 20 characters with no equipment.

Having no equipment is extremely unusual. So by using that in your calculations, you're just calculating how a spellcaster does in an a completely abnormal situation. It doesn't really tell you anything about a normal game situation.


No equipment makes it easier for the caster to land a spell and much easier for the martial to land a hit.


Ascalaphus wrote:
K1 wrote:
To make things easier, I am gonna confront lvl 20 characters with no equipment.
Having no equipment is extremely unusual. So by using that in your calculations, you're just calculating how a spellcaster does in an a completely abnormal situation. It doesn't really tell you anything about a normal game situation.

Unless, of course, you set your games in the mythical, unclothed empire of Nudar.

Another thing we may be seeing, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, is that PF2 may be using some of the same math from Starfinder, which made monsters able to hit harder, and more often, giving them somewhat tanked defenses, while doing the opposite for the PCs so that, in the event your soldier gets brainjacked by some enemy he doesn't auto-destroy the squishier technos, mystics and envoys in your party.


shroudb's math is correct. You're making a flawed argument because there's no equipment as Ascalaphus observed.

There is the obvious way to get a save bonus from armor runes. You can also get situational bonuses from good tactics. Saves tend to outpace spellcasting skill by a mile. A barbarian is a master of Fortitude saves at lvl 7 and legendary with them at 13th. Bards are masters of spellcasting at 15th and legendary at 19th. That's a lot of levels where if you guess wrong about what you're facing as a caster you can really get hurt.

Unless I am missing something there are no items that directly add to save DC. Only Wizards get spell penetration, and even there it only works on things that get bonuses to save vs. spells.

If you don't have the right spells prepared casters can be hosed when facing certain classes. A bunch of fireballs and lightning bolts won't do much to high leveled rogues and monks. That's a good thing in that it makes a caster diversify selection. Semper Paratus.


I'll also add that the math is asymmetrical and that player characters aren't supposed to fight other player characters. They're math isn't balanced around it.

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