Lifting objects


Rules Discussion


Is there any standards of how much a character can lift? I know there are the bulk rules for carrying and dragging is half, but I am just thinking about getting something up. Like the stereotypical heavy beam or rock that is pinning somebody or something under it. I was thinking maybe a straight strength check, but not sure about setting a DC. Athletics seems odd, as anyone trained gets to add their level. That means a 10 strength level 10 character would be better than a 20 strength level 1 character at raw lifting, if both were trained. I was more hoping to find a straight amount you can lift with each strength sore, similar to carrying capacity.


The few examples available suggest that the game thinks that Athletics is the check for this, but there's no table that ties particular weights to particular DCs, unless the thing being lifted is specifically a portcullis - and even then, it just has DCs for different materials, rather than for different sizes. The Belt of Giant Strength equipment item refers to "athletics checks to lift a heavy object," but the athletics skill itself doesn't mention this.


You could resort to using the PF1 rules for lifting, as those are written in terms of "maximum load" not specific weights.

Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character's maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character's Strength in the heavy load column of Table: Carrying Capacity.

A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).

So you could lift (10 + Str mod) Bulk over your head, or lift double that off the ground and stagger around. Change 10 to 12 if you have Hefty Hauler.

Why PF2 omitted a simple lifting rule I don't know, esp. when they did include a dragging rule.


I am of the opinion that the only reason you're even looking for a weight suggestion is because that's how other d20 games handled "can you move this object?" challenges.

Setting a DC to the challenge is a way to set the odds to something that will feel worth a die roll - you can scale the DC to the party level if you want to minimize the impact of proficiency level on the roll. PF2 doesn't seem to do many non-skill-related ability checks though, so a strength-only check might be trickier to pick a DC for.

As for level 10 10 strength character vs. 20 strength character... the rules are not the laws of physics, and are not a simulation of the in-game world. As such they are only meant to be applied when their application actually makes sense - in this case, the lifting "contest" being resolved by saying "The 20 strength character clearly wins" instead of trying to roll athletics is a viable option. As is whichever one is a PC rolling against a DC to try and best their opponent, if you want there to be a chance that the opponent could actually win the contest at least.

Why PF2 "omitted" a lifting rule likely comes down to A) bulk including the awkwardness of a thing's size and shape doesn't mesh well with lifting because a large object often only needs to be tipped rather than completely lifted off the ground and B) coming up with a rule for just picking something up would likely end up being a waste of space for most groups because published adventures are going to list DCs to lift important to lift heavy objects (like portcullis or debris), not calculate how much force you need to apply to produce the appropriate height of lifting for a particular thing.

Even if they said something like how much a statue weighs or how much bulk the statue counts as, if said statue falls over and pins a character it doesn't have to be 100% of that measure counteracted in order for the character to get unpinned.


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

You could resort to using the PF1 rules for lifting, as those are written in terms of "maximum load" not specific weights.

Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character's maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character's Strength in the heavy load column of Table: Carrying Capacity.

A character can lift as much as double his maximum load off the ground, but he or she can only stagger around with it. While overloaded in this way, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC and can move only 5 feet per round (as a full-round action).

So you could lift (10 + Str mod) Bulk over your head, or lift double that off the ground and stagger around. Change 10 to 12 if you have Hefty Hauler.

Why PF2 omitted a simple lifting rule I don't know, esp. when they did include a dragging rule.

This is probably what I will go with. Thanks for the advice.

thenobledrake wrote:

I am of the opinion that the only reason you're even looking for a weight suggestion is because that's how other d20 games handled "can you move this object?" challenges.

Setting a DC to the challenge is a way to set the odds to something that will feel worth a die roll - you can scale the DC to the party level if you want to minimize the impact of proficiency level on the roll. PF2 doesn't seem to do many non-skill-related ability checks though, so a strength-only check might be trickier to pick a DC for.

As for level 10 10 strength character vs. 20 strength character... the rules are not the laws of physics, and are not a simulation of the in-game world. As such they are only meant to be applied when their application actually makes sense - in this case, the lifting "contest" being resolved by saying "The 20 strength character clearly wins" instead of trying to roll athletics is a viable option. As is whichever one is a PC rolling against a DC to try and best their opponent, if you want there to be a chance that the opponent could actually win the contest at least.

Why PF2 "omitted" a lifting rule likely comes down to A) bulk including the awkwardness of a thing's size and shape doesn't mesh well with lifting because a large object often only needs to be tipped rather than completely lifted off the ground and B) coming up with a rule for just picking something up would likely end up being a waste of space for most groups because published adventures are going to list DCs to lift important to lift heavy objects (like portcullis or debris), not calculate how much force you need to apply to produce the appropriate height of lifting for a particular thing.

Even if they said something like how much a statue weighs or how much bulk the statue counts as, if said statue falls over and pins a character it doesn't have to be 100% of that measure counteracted in order for the character to get unpinned.

Other games, including PF1, had this because it comes up fairly often. It is especially useful for if you want to try to block doors.

Grand Lodge

Nah, lifting a heavy object is definitely an athletics check.

You really think weightlifting doesn't use athletics? c'mon.


Mellack wrote:
Other games, including PF1, had this because it comes up fairly often. It is especially useful for if you want to try to block doors.

The frequency of this kind of thing coming up has nothing to do with it.

The majority of games out there on the market have solutions just like can be used with PF2 where the point of the rule can be put into place (read: "how difficult is it to move this object?" being answered) without bringing a specific weight value into the mix.

In fact, whenever you aren't just saying "if you have at least X strength you succeed, otherwise you fail" having a weight measurement doesn't actually help; a die result that determines success will still have to be devised.

So why not just skip to that step?


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thenobledrake wrote:
Mellack wrote:
Other games, including PF1, had this because it comes up fairly often. It is especially useful for if you want to try to block doors.

The frequency of this kind of thing coming up has nothing to do with it.

The majority of games out there on the market have solutions just like can be used with PF2 where the point of the rule can be put into place (read: "how difficult is it to move this object?" being answered) without bringing a specific weight value into the mix.

In fact, whenever you aren't just saying "if you have at least X strength you succeed, otherwise you fail" having a weight measurement doesn't actually help; a die result that determines success will still have to be devised.

So why not just skip to that step?

That is great if you only use premade adventures. Some of us make our own so would like some sort of guidance on how much a character of certain strength should be expected to lift.

Syries wrote:

Nah, lifting a heavy object is definitely an athletics check.

You really think weightlifting doesn't use athletics? c'mon.

As to it being an athletics check, since level adds more than stats or training, that produces the odd effect that a high level weak character with even just basic athletics training can lift much more than a max strength expert 1st level. (Extreme example, level 20 with trained athletics and str 8 = +21. Level 1 with expert athletics and a 20 str = +9)


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Syries wrote:

Nah, lifting a heavy object is definitely an athletics check.

You really think weightlifting doesn't use athletics? c'mon.

So you have a big rock. Can a guy with 10 strength left it better than a guy with 18 strength because he has more experience?

Obviously it is an athletic activity, just not necessarily an Athletics roll.


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mrspaghetti wrote:
Syries wrote:

Nah, lifting a heavy object is definitely an athletics check.

You really think weightlifting doesn't use athletics? c'mon.

So you have a big rock. Can a guy with 10 strength left it better than a guy with 18 strength because he has more experience?

Obviously it is an athletic activity, just not necessarily an Athletics roll.

Well, experience does count.

My cousin is not a frail girl, but I'm definitely stronger than her. Yet, thanks to her firefighter training, she can put an 80kg dummy on her shoulders with little effort, while the one time I tried I absolutely could not do that.


Megistone wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
Syries wrote:

Nah, lifting a heavy object is definitely an athletics check.

You really think weightlifting doesn't use athletics? c'mon.

So you have a big rock. Can a guy with 10 strength left it better than a guy with 18 strength because he has more experience?

Obviously it is an athletic activity, just not necessarily an Athletics roll.

Well, experience does count.

My cousin is not a frail girl, but I'm definitely stronger than her. Yet, thanks to her firefighter training, she can put an 80kg dummy on her shoulders with little effort, while the one time I tried I absolutely could not do that.

But if you were deadlifting her training wouldn't matter. I think that's the scenario that goes sideways if you must include level in a roll - or if you have to roll at all.

There are some things that should be a flat check.


Should a LvL 5 fighter be able to military press a cave bear?

I'm generally fine with bulk, but I kinda wish we still had hard numbers, maybe in Gamemastery.


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Levi wrote:
Should a LvL 5 fighter be able to military press a cave bear?

Most anyone can lift a bear. Heck you can put one in a backpack and have room left over. [animal companion bears start small (3 bulk)]. Even an adult bear is only 6 bulk and that cave bear is 12 bulk, so anyone with a 14+ str can pick up, toss it over their shoulder and carry one around and just be encumbered.

Core Rulebook pg. 272: bulk of creatures chart.


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Lifting a bear while beary possible may not be recommended. It may seem easy but can be very grizzly work. Even if you meet the koalafication.

Also they will straight up eat you.


Un-Bear-able Puns wrote:

Lifting a bear while beary possible may not be recommended. It may seem easy but can be very grizzly work. Even if you meet the koalafication.

Also they will straight up eat you.

Bears prefer honey, for the same reason that sharks prefer seals. People are too boney.


mrspaghetti wrote:
Un-Bear-able Puns wrote:

Lifting a bear while beary possible may not be recommended. It may seem easy but can be very grizzly work. Even if you meet the koalafication.

Also they will straight up eat you.

Bears prefer honey, for the same reason that sharks prefer seals. People are too boney.

What does a manbearpig prefer?


graystone wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
Un-Bear-able Puns wrote:

Lifting a bear while beary possible may not be recommended. It may seem easy but can be very grizzly work. Even if you meet the koalafication.

Also they will straight up eat you.

Bears prefer honey, for the same reason that sharks prefer seals. People are too boney.
What does a manbearpig prefer?

When in doubt, order pizza


Mellack wrote:
Some of us make our own so would like some sort of guidance on how much a character of certain strength should be expected to lift.

See my earlier comment about "you can lift X pounds" being irrelevant unless the GM's goal is to say "if you have strength X or higher, you automatically succeed, otherwise you automatically fail."

And a GM doesn't actually need any chart in the book interfering in that determination - much quicker to just decide what strength score is good enough and move on, and with no chance of the GM wanting an 18+ to be good enough but some chart says otherwise so now they've got a rule to complain about not making sense and house-rule or hand-waive back out of their way.


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Friendly reminder that the table on pg. 272 is accompanied by the text "The table that follows lists the typical Bulk of a creature based on its size, but the GM might adjust this number."

Exo-Guardians

thenobledrake wrote:
Friendly reminder that the table on pg. 272 is accompanied by the text "The table that follows lists the typical Bulk of a creature based on its size, but the GM might adjust this number."

Shhh, you're ruining graystone's hobbyhorse narrative about how bad the Bulk system is...


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thenobledrake wrote:
Friendly reminder that the table on pg. 272 is accompanied by the text "The table that follows lists the typical Bulk of a creature based on its size, but the GM might adjust this number."

LOL The Gm 'might adjust ANY number', so I'm not seeing that quote as having any meaning [saying typical already indicates exceptions]. Typical Bulks are just that: typical. If those Bulks are often not applicable, then they aren't typical are they? ;)

Saros Palanthios wrote:
Shhh, you're ruining graystone's hobbyhorse narrative about how bad the Bulk system is...

How so? It 100% works with a "typical" cave bear. The DM's ability to make an atypical cave bear of unusual size doesn't change much. In fact it might make my position better as a a starving cave bear might be LESS bulk... A str 10 character might be able to lift the runt of the litter. :P


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Well this whole thing is good news for cave bears, because I feel pretty confident now that, with the right training at least, a firefighter could rescue one from a fire in their cave.

Exo-Guardians

graystone wrote:
LOL The Gm 'might adjust ANY number', so I'm not seeing that quote as having any meaning [saying typical already indicates exceptions]. Typical Bulks are just that: typical. If those Bulks are often not applicable, then they aren't typical are they? ;)

If that line is meaningless, why did Paizo waste wordcount on including it in the CRB? Choosing to ignore rules that don't fit your narrative is a classic example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

graystone wrote:
How so? It 100% works with a "typical" cave bear. The DM's ability to make an atypical cave bear of unusual size doesn't change much. In fact it might make my position better as a a starving cave bear might be LESS bulk... A str 10 character might be able to lift the runt of the litter. :P

The table gives the typical bulk of Large creatures in general, not the typical bulk of any particular species. For example, Giant Bats and Frost Giants are both size Large-- but per the Bestiary, a Giant Bat weighs "well over 100 pounds" while a typical Frost Giant weighs "approximately 2,800 pounds". Should both be 12 Bulk, simply because the table says that's a typical bulk for a Large creature? No-- as the accompanying text makes clear.


As I said, I'm fine with bulk normally, if anything I think it's a bit too punishing in regards to normal gear if you're anything below average in STR.

My players have taken to it though, which should have been a warning.

This came up after they fought a cave bear and the fighter explains how he non-nonchalantly picks up and tosses the dead cave bear away from their campsite.

I quickly corrected it, but I was taken aback as the application of bulk to that situation hadn't occurred to me.


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Saros Palanthios wrote:
If that line is meaningless, why did Paizo waste wordcount on including it in the CRB?

SO you in fact disagree that a DM can change what they want in the game?

SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES [page# 492]
"The player characters in your group will at times attempt tasks that should be easier or harder than the rules or adventure would otherwise lead you to expect, such as a PC Gathering Information in their hometown. In these cases, you can just apply a circumstance bonus or penalty."

Saros Palanthios wrote:
Choosing to ignore rules that don't fit your narrative is a classic example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

LOL Your reading comprehension is off here: I didn't say the rule should be ignored, I said it was irrelevant to the debate as it's something that can happen with anything in the game. It literally added nothing to the debate. For instance, a DM could rule that there are no cave bears in his game or they can fly: you can't debate theoretical undefined changes a dm COULD impose. None of that alters the base/typical Bulks totals.

Saros Palanthios wrote:
The table gives the typical bulk of Large creatures in general, not the typical bulk of any particular species. For example, Giant Bats and Frost Giants are both size Large-- but per the Bestiary, a Giant Bat weighs "well over 100 pounds" while a typical Frost Giant weighs "approximately 2,800 pounds". Should both be 12 Bulk, simply because the table says that's a typical bulk for a Large creature? No-- as the accompanying text makes clear.

You seem to be reading into the rule. Nothing says anything but that it's the typical bulk for that size. Nothing indicates that a "particular species" would be atypical: a Dm could say that but that's FM fiat and is outside of a debate really. As to "as the accompanying text makes clear"... Not so much IMO. Let me ask a question then? What are the bulks of those creatures? Is the bat a lower bulk? The giant higher? Both are atypical? Nothing seems clear if we aren't looking at the typical numbers.

Weight: If you are looking at pounds, then things get WAY off too. A adamantine golem’s body is made of more than 4,000 pounds. An ankhrav 4,200 pounds. An annis hag weighs 300 pounds. A balor weighs 4,500 pounds. Chuul is 600 pounds. A crocodile weighs 1,400 pounds. Or is you wish, look up weights form items vs bulk: you'll see lots are WELL off the suggested weight totals.

IMO, cave bear looks like it's in the middle. And that's the thing: If you're relying on 'but the DM can alter things', it might not be in favor of your argument. When the category includes weights up to 4500 pounds, 2800 can look on the average or even lighter side while those in the hundreds seem much lighter. This is why I didn't put any 'weight' in the 'dm's can change things' text as it already told up it's the typical.

PS: "graystone's hobbyhorse narrative". If you think this is a thing, the best way to NOT see my talk about it is to NOT post snarky posts when I do. Bulk is something I don't mind debating whenever I see it.

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