So my session just ended. Two of the players purchased 'mules' to carry their gear. I cannot find rules for this so I just figured an 18 str humanoid can carry 9 bulk and doubled it to 18. I used the stats for a riding horse but added a line about being stubborn and is easier to handle in underground environments.
Now I just told everyone to note on their sheet carried by 'bill the mule'. Do we have an rules regarding a player having an animal companion to carry their stuff or did I miss it?
Thanks!
You'll need to apply the rules for Bulk Conversions For Different Sizes on page 295. Simply by virtue of being Large a horse can carry a lot! OTOH if you want its carry capacity to increase for being a quadruped (as it should, really) you'll have to do that by hand; in PF1 it was a x1.5 increase IIRC.
Looking at old pf1 animal tables for purchasable animals, donkeys apparently just have pony stats.
Edit:found some pf2 pony stats. +3 str mod. Couldn't tell size, but lets say medium. So maybe 8 bulk?
I would petsonally make them dirt cheap at around 1 gp. Pack horses are already valued at 1/4 of the price of a riding horse, appartently. So let them get these for cheap, and make upbfor the bulk with sheer numbers.
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per pg 295 of the CRB, a "Pack Animal" can be rented for 2cp per day, or purchased for 2gp.
horses are Large size, so they double their bulk limit. a Riding Horse has STR +4, so that means they can carry (5+4)*2 = 18 Bulk unencumbered, or 36 Bulk max. (having the Encumbered condition isn't a big deal for a pack animal that won't be involved in combat.)
donkeys are pretty small irl, i'd make them Medium size in game terms, with stats similar to a Riding Pony. that would give them STR +3, which would let them carry 8 Bulk unencumbered, or 16 Bulk max.
mules are the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse, and they tend to be halfway between donkeys and horses in terms of size, strength, and temperament. personally i'd lean toward calling them Large size, but with the stats of a Riding Pony. that would give them Bulk limits of 16 unencumbered, 32 max.
horses are Large size, so they double their bulk limit.
While this is true, it's more complicated than that. Per page 295 on bulk conversions for different sizes, a Large creature also treats 10 Bulk as 1 Bulk, treats 1 Bulk as Light, and treats Light as Negligible. That means a Large creature carries a total of twenty times what a Medium creature with the same Str does (while being equally encumbered).
If you look at larger sizes you'll see that it's usually a total factor of four at each upsizing, not twenty, but the Bulk system apparently doesn't allow them to write "2L" in the "treats as Light" column, so they put 1 Bulk instead. Good news for Medium mounted PCs!
(BTW, if somebody can show that this is mistaken I'll be thrilled. A warhorse (Str +5, Large) shouldn't really be able to carry 200 Bulk unencumbered IMHO.)
(BTW, if somebody can show that this is mistaken I'll be thrilled. A warhorse (Str +5, Large) shouldn't really be able to carry 200 Bulk unencumbered IMHO.)
LOL What seems wrong? Does it seem strange that you can pile 16 other warhorses on it's back and have a medium rider while being unencumbered? ;)
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(BTW, if somebody can show that this is mistaken I'll be thrilled. A warhorse (Str +5, Large) shouldn't really be able to carry 200 Bulk unencumbered IMHO.)LOL What seems wrong? Does it seem strange that you can pile 16 other warhorses on it's back and have a medium rider while being unencumbered? ;)
Ah, I knew when I wrote that I'd be casting summon graystone. But how do you sense Bulk-weirdness posts so quickly?
Thanks for all the helpful replies. Ill use the horse templete and set it a bit lower on stats and call it medium.
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Ah, I knew when I wrote that I'd be casting summon graystone. But how do you sense Bulk-weirdness posts so quickly?(BTW, if somebody can show that this is mistaken I'll be thrilled. A warhorse (Str +5, Large) shouldn't really be able to carry 200 Bulk unencumbered IMHO.)LOL What seems wrong? Does it seem strange that you can pile 16 other warhorses on it's back and have a medium rider while being unencumbered? ;)
The same way Jedi's sense the force. ;)
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The same way Jedi's sense the force. ;)Ah, I knew when I wrote that I'd be casting summon graystone. But how do you sense Bulk-weirdness posts so quickly?(BTW, if somebody can show that this is mistaken I'll be thrilled. A warhorse (Str +5, Large) shouldn't really be able to carry 200 Bulk unencumbered IMHO.)LOL What seems wrong? Does it seem strange that you can pile 16 other warhorses on it's back and have a medium rider while being unencumbered? ;)
Bulkichlorians confirmed
They do run into the issue of how the bulk is carried - the equipment section seems to imply that you need to account for how each unit of bulk is carried, with bandoliers, backpacks, and saddlebags having specific capacities.
I would argue that a donkey can technically wear one set of saddlebags, meaning it can carry 6 bulk of items in the bags (the largest item it can carry in a single saddle bag is 3 bulk, so you can carry 2 bull 3 items but not a bulk 6 item this way), and carry maybe the rest of its bulk if you strap larger items to its back with ropes (though this won't work for small items as those can't be realistically carried outside a bag).
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Saddlebags are meant to work in tandem with a riding saddle (and rider). Pack animals are loaded differently-- typically with very large bags called panniers, hung on a special pack-saddle. see this video for an example.
Saddlebags are meant to work in tandem with a riding saddle (and rider). Pack animals are loaded differently-- typically with very large bags called panniers, hung on a special pack-saddle. see this video for an example.
Saddlebags are what we have however, though maybe we will get rules for pack versions with greater capacity down the track.
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Saddlebags are what we have however, though maybe we will get rules for pack versions with greater capacity down the track.
if your GM can't/won't handwave up some reasonably-sized containers for your pack horse even though they're not specifically listed in the book, then you've got bigger problems than Bulk limits...
Saddlebags are what we have however, though maybe we will get rules for pack versions with greater capacity down the track.if your GM can't/won't handwave up some reasonably-sized containers for your pack horse even though they're not specifically listed in the book, then you've got bigger problems than Bulk limits...
Oh of course, I'm just pointing out that handwaving is required (and that the existence of container bulk limits gives you design space to limit how much a pack animal can carry to avoid situations like carrying 16 warhorses at once)
Oh of course, I'm just pointing out that handwaving is required (and that the existence of container bulk limits gives you design space to limit how much a pack animal can carry to avoid situations like carrying 16 warhorses at once)Saddlebags are what we have however, though maybe we will get rules for pack versions with greater capacity down the track.if your GM can't/won't handwave up some reasonably-sized containers for your pack horse even though they're not specifically listed in the book, then you've got bigger problems than Bulk limits...
Who needs handwaving? I have rope. Nothing requires a container: for instance, a sword/club can be tucked into belt as easily as a sheath. And remember that bulk is meant to account for both weight AND unwieldiness so a warhorse being 1/16th another warhorses limit it would seem to be saying that it s quite easy to stack them like jenga block as 1 horse in LESS unwieldy to another horse than a 10' pole is to a 10 str human. It's the fun thing with bulk in that it doesn't care about packing: 20 loose shortswords held in your arms have the same bulk as those carefully packed into a backpack.
Now if you really want to blow your mind, 66 halflings can pile on to a warhorse WITHOUT encumbering it: It must look clowns coming out of a clown car...
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per pg 295 of the CRB, a "Pack Animal" can be rented for 2cp per day, or purchased for 2gp.
horses are Large size, so they double their bulk limit. a Riding Horse has STR +4, so that means they can carry (5+4)*2 = 18 Bulk unencumbered, or 36 Bulk max. (having the Encumbered condition isn't a big deal for a pack animal that won't be involved in combat.)
donkeys are pretty small irl, i'd make them Medium size in game terms, with stats similar to a Riding Pony. that would give them STR +3, which would let them carry 8 Bulk unencumbered, or 16 Bulk max.
mules are the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse, and they tend to be halfway between donkeys and horses in terms of size, strength, and temperament. personally i'd lean toward calling them Large size, but with the stats of a Riding Pony. that would give them Bulk limits of 16 unencumbered, 32 max.
How does a large animal have such a high max bulk limit? Am I missing something? I know in PF1 quadrupeds had a scaling factor for having 4 legs, but I have not seen anything like that in PF2 yet.
The bulk limits (CRB pg 272) lists the maximum Bulk as 10 + Str Mod. Adding the multiplier for Large creatures (i.e. x2) would bring the riding horse to a max of (10+4)*2 = 28 Bulk. Granted: this is a lot, but short of the 36 you mention which makes me think I am missing some part of this.
Thanks for the help clarifying this for my feeble brain.
Nifty