5-Headed Dragon Stats?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So, I'm in a pickle!

I started this campaign out in 5th edition, swapped over to the PF playtest....and now we are in PF2e...which is amazing, and my players are having so much fun.

One problem.

The Big Bad is gonna take the form of a 5-headed dragon. Aaaaand, well. 5-headed dragons do not seem to be in Pathfinder. So, I need some help starting out a 5-headed dragon. It's gonna be taken on by 4 20th level players. I'm still very new to PF having never played its first edition so I'm not sure how to even start. Any advice would be super, super awesome!

Thanks!


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I'd start with a high level dragon for general stats and abilities, and poach some hydra special moves - besides giving it different breath weapon options of course.


Yotebeth wrote:

So, I'm in a pickle!

I started this campaign out in 5th edition, swapped over to the PF playtest....and now we are in PF2e...which is amazing, and my players are having so much fun.

One problem.

The Big Bad is gonna take the form of a 5-headed dragon. Aaaaand, well. 5-headed dragons do not seem to be in Pathfinder. So, I need some help starting out a 5-headed dragon. It's gonna be taken on by 4 20th level players. I'm still very new to PF having never played its first edition so I'm not sure how to even start. Any advice would be super, super awesome!

Thanks!

You can start with the Ancient Red Dragon (level 19) and add some abilities from the Hydra (only a level 6 creature but it has five heads). That should get you pretty far. Take a peek at some other level 20 creatures to make sure it's numbers are relatively close.

New to Pathfinder and running four level 20's? That's brave! Jumping into the deep end there. Good luck!


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Basically first you need to decide what you want the flavor of the fight to be. That's one of the design aspects that designers have mentioned several times -- decide what's the iconic aspect of the creature and make sure that's supported, don't add too much extra secondary stuff.

When I think 5-headed dragon, generally the different breath weapons is what I see as the defining ability. (You already have draconic frenzy for a full-attack option, adding extra heads there seems OK, aligned with hydra or marlith actions)

So I'd probably focus on the
2-action breath attack -- probably make it use two heads, maybe reduce the damage dice by a couple for each, but still use the high DC for each save. Puts all heads on the usual 1d4 round cooldown
3-action breath attack -- use all five heads, reduce damage dice by 1/2, still uses high dc. Puts all heads on cooldown for 2+1d4 rounds.

This still has very dangerous synergy with Draconic Frenzy/Draconic Momentum. (Ie alternate rounds of 3-action breath attack, draconic frenzy with all the heads crit fishing to recharge early)


What they said...unless it's Tiamat. Then pile on even more, and don't do Hydra Regeneration.

Easy bits:
Add 4 more Reactions for Attacks of Opportunity. At that Level, AoOs should interrupt the action.
2-Action: Attack up to 5 opponents within reach w/ bite attack.
2-Action: Attack one person w/ all 5 heads. Do normal bite damage +1d8 +2d6 (various energies) per other head. Do normal bite damage (+one type of energy) on a normal failure.
If she uses her claws (which not all versions of her do) then maybe have both together as a 1-action attack. I could also see her pinning a PC with a claw on a crit (grabbed & prone, maybe even restrained), as that's something at least one version of her could do. She wouldn't use claw while pinning somebody.
If she uses her wings, then have them knock back like a Roc's, possibly for 1/2 damage, but as a free action if not flying.
If she uses her tail too, we're now overloading the system (if we haven't already). Work it into a combo attack somewhere.
All around vision
+1 Status to all saves vs. magic

Moderate bits:
How do you do multiple breath weapon(s)?
I'd make them 1-action w/ a max of 1/round or even a free action once per round, but that head cannot bite that round. Head needs 1d4 rounds to recharge, though other heads can bite.
And a 3-action holocaust breath which blasts them all in different directions. Each person in radius is subject to two breath attacks.
These shouldn't be at level since they're effectively quickened.

If Tiamat, one might think about her being immune to fire, cold, electricity, poison, & acid (as per her breaths). That's really extreme though for PF2, a system which would balance those by tanking her hit points, which you don't want. So 15 each perhaps (or 1/2 whatever her stats had in D&D).
And you have to decide if she has resistance to weapons, which she probably should, but w/ no DR/epic maybe a 5 or 10 all?

Hard bits:
Adjust to match Level of threat you want. Her bite shouldn't do as much damage as a normal attack her level because she can use it as an AoE & has a damage boost, so about 2/3 of that of monsters with straightforward attacks of her same level.
Hit points are hard because they have to balance w/ the AC you want as well as her resistances & vulnerabilities (though she shouldn't have the latter.) Look at Linnorms, though they and she have such different defenses it'll be close enough to start with.

Remember monsters aren't built upward unless based on a PC class. You want target numbers, then work your way back to get stats that simulate that. Strength is the most likely to be off. Hopefully the Gamemaster's Guide will come out before the finale so you can fine tune your numbers, but feel free to wing it, taxing your players to their utmost. Probably better to undershoot and make her resilient if needed than to overkill and all too obviously pull back because you erred.

Have at it
Cheers

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

They are likely talking about Tiamat O_o; Who was something like CR 30 in D&D 5e so uh, that might be a problem unless players got some major big super duper anti Tiamat artifacts to even out the stuff. I mean besides level 25 being current max in 2e, level 30 npc would math wise always crit party with each attack

Verdant Wheel

Another route:

1) Choose 5 dragons of appropriate combined CR
2) Treat as a single dragon that acts on 3 different initiative counts per round, with up to 3 reactions per round, randomly determined round-by-round
3) Players must target one "head" per attack/effect - head is "severed" when it's HP total is exceeded

This method requires the least prep-work as you essentially run 5 creatures as if they were 3 at a time.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Funny thing, it's not Tiamat.
It's just based on teh amazing Tiamat 'miniature' from the reaper bones line. :)
So I don't have to have it be the mother of dragons or anything like that.

It's actually an evil dragon who has consumed the souls of four other elder dragons to become one horror. :)

And yeah, jumping in to lvl 20 is gonna be tough, but we've been playing this game for coming on 14 years, so we'll figure it out. This arc alone has gone from 5th/PF Playtest/PF2e...haha.

I'm running some one shots between sessions to get ready for this final arc. :)


Building off of what rainzax said:
Have all 5 dragons embodied in one monster. Determine what Level of the encounter would be if the party fought all five dragons together.

Then run it somewhat like the Ettin, w/ 5 turns!! but space out the initiatives so they're not too close together. And perhaps have the subordinate dragons ("dragon heads") only able to use their bite, spells, breath, & Reactions (though as a group with only one per trigger). (Trade in Draconic Frenzy on the "minion" dragons to gain spells.)

Have single-target spells & effects only effect one dragon (especially slow & stun!), while AoEs only effect the whole pool of h.p. once. This is an advantage, but it's offset by maybe subtracting a dragon every 1/5 of the pool the party chews through. Or start w/ the weakest dragon's h.p. so that last head has the most h.p. & best stats, keeps the fight tense. Heck, as the "dragon taking damage" switches, the boss dragon's AC could go up as the fight progresses, which tends to scare PCs. :)
The party is automatically focusing fire, which is pretty strong. Maybe have excess damage from a kill not carry on to the next dragon.
Of course, the PCs may wish to focus on a specific head (like Green if they dislike poison), so that would shift the "target dragon" to that dragon.

You can add the weak or strong template to some as needed to get the target Level & threat you'd like.
It may sound uber-brutal, but most of the dragons are under 20th level, so it'll only be brutal. :)

Verdant Wheel

Agreed. One stipulation though: Consider having only 3 heads active at a time, randomly determined.

Because 5 seems like overkill. Unless you absolutely must have overkill. What more, 3 randomly active heads may be more "interesting" than 5 always-active heads. It'll keep your characters on their toes ("Oh no, I hope the Acid head doesn't get to go again"). Unpredictability is SCARY. Much better at demonstrating variety, too.

You can always power-up their attacks accordingly, and 3 stronger heads (at a time) seems more elegant to me than 5 weaker heads.

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