Bespell Weapon feat plus Shifting rune Staff on Fighter / "Wizard"?


Advice


I've been playing around with building an Elven Fighter with Wizard dedication feat, aiming to use wizard spells for combat buffs, with a stash of scrolls/wands for utility.

I was looking specifically at the Bespell Weapon feat (Wizard 4) to see if I could get some additional synergy in the mid-levels, and trying to figure out how to get a significant number of single action cost spells to actually make it worth while to take the feat. Most spells cost 2 actions, limiting the number of attacks you benefit from it in a round.

So assuming 8th level, and the basic wizard spell casting feat you have a base 3 slots (1 1st, 1 2nd, and 1 3rd). 1d6 three times per day doesn't really seem worth a feat. So I looked for ways to increase that daily usage by the time I can take the feat.

Ring of Wizardy I was the obvious first option which adds two 1st level slots and is technically in level range (level 7 and 360 gp).

Three True Strikes, Enlarge and a Haste, for 5d6 to 8d6 extra damage a day is starting to sound better, although still not sure if its worth it.

However, looking through things I came across staves, and was wondering if I am correct in understanding, "cast a non-cantrip spell" also includes using scrolls, wands and staves?

At which point a +1 Striking Shifting Staff of Divination sounds potentially interesting. If I understand the shifting rune properly, that lets the staff become any 1-handed weapon, such as a whip, bastard sword or short sword.

At 8th level, a staff would have 3 base charges (max 3rd level casting), and I could trade my level 2 spell in for 2 more charges, giving a total of 5 charges, plus my other 1st level slot plus a 3rd level slot, for 7 total spells, applying the bonus 1d6 damage to 7 to 12 attacks per day. The rune and staff themselves are 6th level (total cost of 35+65+230+225=555), and thus within reason for an 8th level character to aim for I think.

By 9th you could probably get the Ring of Wizardry as well, putting you at 8 castings of True Strike plus the casting of Haste in the 3rd level slot. That is potentially applying 1d6 mental damage 8 to 16 times every day. Plus those True Strikes are providing double rolls to see if you hit, certainly increasing your odds of a critical.

Or is trying to leverage this just not worth it, and taking a more straight forward +1 striking bastard sword with thundering (or other 1d6 elemental damage) going to be better while grabbing a more traditional level 8 fighter feat?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Due to the way probability works, the higher your crit chance, the greater the benefit from True Strike. Since the fighter already has above-average accuracy, you should be getting a lot of mileage out of the spell, and likely critting pretty often. I think it sounds like a fun and potentially pretty powerful build.


I think the best routine is True Strike into Power Attack to leverage the better to-hit and thus crit with a single attack. Since true strike is verbal only you can usr a two-handed weapon for maximum effect (even if unfortunatly compared to the playtest bespell weapon does not scale anymore with the weapon dice)


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Hiruma Kai wrote:
However, looking through things I came across staves, and was wondering if I am correct in understanding, "cast a non-cantrip spell" also includes using scrolls, wands and staves?

It should, as the Cast a Spell activity is how you use any of them.


In addition to True Strike, 1-action Magic Missile isn't the worst thing if you need a quick guaranteed tap against an enemy who's near death.

Also if you're Hasted or already in melee using True Strike to augment a 2-action attack like Power Attack or Swipe can be really good, frontloading to capitalize on the True Strike effect. Swipe with a Battleaxe or other Sweep weapon gets even better. Add the axe crit specialization effect and eventually a Grievous Rune and you can have some sweet cleaving attacks.


Remember that focus spells also count and are generally single action affairs (to help pad out your bonus damage each fight)

And yup, you have it right. Anything that isn't a cantrip and is cast by you is fair game :)


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

Remember that focus spells also count and are generally single action affairs (to help pad out your bonus damage each fight)

And yup, you have it right. Anything that isn't a cantrip and is cast by you is fair game :)

Only issue I see with that is that to grab a focus spell requires another wizard archetype feat.

As it stands, class feats for the build go like:

1) Power Attack (or other 1st level fighter feat)
2) Wizard Dedication
4) Basic Wizard spellcasting
6) Basic Arcana (Cantrip Expansion? - don't see any good options here)
8) Advanced Aracana to grab Bespell Weapon

At some point I'd like to take a second fighter feat. I suppose at 9th I get the flexible fighter feat, but still.

I'm still debating with myself whether the two Arcana feats are worth the 1d6 after casting a spell plus whatever minor 1st or 2nd wizard feat I pick.

As it was, the idea was to be a sort of old school Elven fighter/mage/thief. Grabbing Nimble Elf at 1st and Fleet at 3rd for a 40 foot move, combined with an 18 Str and 16 Dex for switch hitting ranged to melee. So highly mobile melee or move, move, shoot options.

By taking Elven weapon familiarity at 9th and then Elven Weapon Expertise at 13th, I can have legendary proficiency with bows and melee weapons at the same time (along with advanced Elven weapons, not that any exist). Probably would pick a different 9th level feat and then retrain at 13th though.

14 Int means you start with 7 skills + 1 lore skill. Grab stealth and thievery with 2 of those 7 and you've got a decent dip into thief like behavior. At 5th level, combining 18 Dex, Ageless patience, and expert thievery gets you a +15 check to disarm that doesn't critical fail on a 1 in exchange for taking 4 actions instead of 2.

I'll also note 40 foot speed plus Ageless patience combines quite nicely in exploration mode to basically get a +2 bonus to any skill while moving as if you had a 20 foot speed.

Lastly, starting at 2nd you get wizard cantrips, and access to using scrolls and wands. At 4th you start getting real spells (with True Strike being one of the better arcane combat buffs). Its too bad wizards don't seem to get a status bonus to attack rolls spell like heroism.


I've built exactly a character like this:

Fighter/wizard miner.

He has his divination staff shifted to a pick, and goes crit fishing like crazy.

Access to heroism, even if limited times per day, helps keeping the pick crits consistent even against boss AC.

I was debating Bespell, but feats are kinda tight to pick it up as a mc feat.

True strike+Pick is <3

Don't forget that you can sacrifice a spell slot at daily prep for extra True Strikes.

And a Power attack crit from a Pick... Well, let's say it hurts.


shroudb wrote:

I've built exactly a character like this:

Fighter/wizard miner.

He has his divination staff shifted to a pick, and goes crit fishing like crazy.

Access to heroism, even if limited times per day, helps keeping the pick crits consistent even against boss AC.

I was debating Bespell, but feats are kinda tight to pick it up as a mc feat.

True strike+Pick is <3

Don't forget that you can sacrifice a spell slot at daily prep for extra True Strikes.

And a Power attack crit from a Pick... Well, let's say it hurts.

Does the wiz gets something that a sorc doesn't get for teh build?

I am planing to play a fighter/sorc.


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puksone wrote:
shroudb wrote:

I've built exactly a character like this:

Fighter/wizard miner.

He has his divination staff shifted to a pick, and goes crit fishing like crazy.

Access to heroism, even if limited times per day, helps keeping the pick crits consistent even against boss AC.

I was debating Bespell, but feats are kinda tight to pick it up as a mc feat.

True strike+Pick is <3

Don't forget that you can sacrifice a spell slot at daily prep for extra True Strikes.

And a Power attack crit from a Pick... Well, let's say it hurts.

Does the wiz gets something that a sorc doesn't get for teh build?

I am planing to play a fighter/sorc.

double charges on his Staff compared to sorc.

plus, better spellcasting for MC.

as written, spontaneous MC you only get 1 spell (per level) that you can cast. While with prepared MC you still cast only the one/two spells (per level), but you can switch them daily from all within your collection.


shroudb wrote:
puksone wrote:
shroudb wrote:

I've built exactly a character like this:

Fighter/wizard miner.

He has his divination staff shifted to a pick, and goes crit fishing like crazy.

Access to heroism, even if limited times per day, helps keeping the pick crits consistent even against boss AC.

I was debating Bespell, but feats are kinda tight to pick it up as a mc feat.

True strike+Pick is <3

Don't forget that you can sacrifice a spell slot at daily prep for extra True Strikes.

And a Power attack crit from a Pick... Well, let's say it hurts.

Does the wiz gets something that a sorc doesn't get for teh build?

I am planing to play a fighter/sorc.

double charges on his Staff compared to sorc.

plus, better spellcasting for MC.

as written, spontaneous MC you only get 1 spell (per level) that you can cast. While with prepared MC you still cast only the one/two spells (per level), but you can switch them daily from all within your collection.

from arcane bond? but you don't get that from mc?


puksone wrote:
shroudb wrote:
puksone wrote:
shroudb wrote:

I've built exactly a character like this:

Fighter/wizard miner.

He has his divination staff shifted to a pick, and goes crit fishing like crazy.

Access to heroism, even if limited times per day, helps keeping the pick crits consistent even against boss AC.

I was debating Bespell, but feats are kinda tight to pick it up as a mc feat.

True strike+Pick is <3

Don't forget that you can sacrifice a spell slot at daily prep for extra True Strikes.

And a Power attack crit from a Pick... Well, let's say it hurts.

Does the wiz gets something that a sorc doesn't get for teh build?

I am planing to play a fighter/sorc.

double charges on his Staff compared to sorc.

plus, better spellcasting for MC.

as written, spontaneous MC you only get 1 spell (per level) that you can cast. While with prepared MC you still cast only the one/two spells (per level), but you can switch them daily from all within your collection.

from arcane bond? but you don't get that from mc?

Prepared and Spontaneous casters get slightly different benefits from preparing staves. When a prepared caster prepares a staff they can expend a spell slot and gain that many additional charges in the staff for the day. If OP is looking for mostly True Strike spam then on average he’ll be able to use it with the staff 6 times. A spontaneous caster would not get this benefit.


shroudb wrote:

True strike+Pick is <3

Don't forget that you can sacrifice a spell slot at daily prep for extra True Strikes.

And a Power attack crit from a Pick... Well, let's say it hurts.

I admit those pick critical hits are scary.

I'd probably do something like a bastard sword (or dwarven waraxe if I could find a good way to get the max proficiency with it) myself.

At 8th, assuming a striking rune, true strike + bespell, basic power attack (no crit) on the two handed bastard sword, is 3d12+1d6+7 (30 average) versus 3d6+1d6+7 (21). Or even just a normal strike is 2d12+1d6+7 (23.5) versus 2d6+1d6+7 (17.5). So a 6 to 9 point swing in favor of the bastard sword.

The crit version is 6d12+2d6+14 (60 plus flat-footed for allies) versus 7d10+2d6+28 (73.5), so the pick clearly wins in the critical case by 13.5 points, and is certainly a lot of burst.

I guess the question for me is, even with the true strike, whats your ratio of critical hits to normal hits in a typical combat?

shroudb wrote:
I was debating Bespell, but feats are kinda tight to pick it up as a mc feat.

Yeah, its kinda hard to justify the 2 extra feats for just 1d6 occasionally. If it scaled with striking runes, then yeah its probably worth two feats, but as it is I'm having a hard time justifying both Basic and Advanced Arcana feats for it. Another martial wizard feat in the level 1 to 2 range, or perhaps some more martial themed cantrips might also help. If you could cast shield and block for every time you prepared it - i.e. preparing shield 4 times would let you cast and block with it 4 times per fight might make the cantrip expansion feat worth it to a fighter/wizard.

shroudb wrote:
Access to heroism, even if limited times per day, helps keeping the pick crits consistent even against boss AC.

Out of curiosity whats your source of heroism? Ally caster in the party? Trick Magic Device and some Occultism or Religion?

puksone wrote:


Does the wiz gets something that a sorc doesn't get for teh build?

I am planing to play a fighter/sorc.

I happen to like the benefits of a 14 intelligence more than a 14 charisma (plus I'm already playing with a 16 charisma champion and a 18 charisma Sorcerer). As noted, prepared spellcasting gets me more 1st level spells from the staff, and there's a lot more flexibility in choosing my daily spells, while getting exactly the same number of castings per day as the sorcerer.

On the other hand, Sorcerers can pick any spell list, as well as have some interesting focus spell options. A focus spell for flight at 12th level while a little late is still useful for a melee build.


Hiruma Kai wrote:


Only issue I see with that is that to grab a focus spell requires another wizard archetype feat.

As it stands, class feats for the build go like:

1) Power Attack (or other 1st level fighter feat)
2) Wizard Dedication
4) Basic Wizard spellcasting
6) Basic Arcana (Cantrip Expansion? - don't see any good options here)
8) Advanced Aracana to grab Bespell Weapon

Just saying - for Basic Arcana, instead of cantrip expansion, you could take the Hand of the Apprentice feat, which gives you the Hand of the Apprentice focus spell. That gives you both a focus spell and a ranged attack option with your primary weapon, just in case.


Hiruma Kai wrote:
shroudb wrote:

True strike+Pick is <3

Don't forget that you can sacrifice a spell slot at daily prep for extra True Strikes.

And a Power attack crit from a Pick... Well, let's say it hurts.

I admit those pick critical hits are scary.

I'd probably do something like a bastard sword (or dwarven waraxe if I could find a good way to get the max proficiency with it) myself.

shroudb wrote:
Access to heroism, even if limited times per day, helps keeping the pick crits consistent even against boss AC.

Out of curiosity whats your source of heroism? Ally caster in the party? Trick Magic Device and some Occultism or Religion?

The pick allows a shield though, as opposed to two handing a bastard sword, so there's this upside. I generally really like shields.

As for heroism... That's brainfart on my part forgetting that it's not in the Arcane list.

Nevertheless, haste is almost as good, since it allows a power attack+true strike even on rounds you have to move around.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I will be stealing this build for my own games in the near future. :D


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Phntm888 wrote:
Hiruma Kai wrote:


Only issue I see with that is that to grab a focus spell requires another wizard archetype feat.

As it stands, class feats for the build go like:

1) Power Attack (or other 1st level fighter feat)
2) Wizard Dedication
4) Basic Wizard spellcasting
6) Basic Arcana (Cantrip Expansion? - don't see any good options here)
8) Advanced Aracana to grab Bespell Weapon

Just saying - for Basic Arcana, instead of cantrip expansion, you could take the Hand of the Apprentice feat, which gives you the Hand of the Apprentice focus spell. That gives you both a focus spell and a ranged attack option with your primary weapon, just in case.

I don't think you can take Hand of the Apprentice. Hand of the Apprentice has "Universalist Wizard" as a prerequisite, which is a function of the "Arcane School" wizard class feature, which you do not get from the wizard dedication. Therefore, without starting as wizard, you can't satisfy the prerequisite.


Phntm888 wrote:


Just saying - for Basic Arcana, instead of cantrip expansion, you could take the Hand of the Apprentice feat, which gives you the Hand of the Apprentice focus spell. That gives you both a focus spell and a ranged attack option with your primary weapon, just in case.

Hand of the Apprentice requires Universalist Wizard, which sadly a multiclass fighter doesn't qualify for. Otherwise, I'd agree it'd be a cool option.

There's a possibility that some more martial oriented low level wizard feats might come out in later books. Something that let you cast shield a significantly expanded number of times a fight would be cool for example.

shroudb wrote:
The pick allows a shield though, as opposed to two handing a bastard sword, so there's this upside. I generally really like shields.

Gotcha. I agree shields are really good. Of course, a turn of True Strike + Power Attack is eating all 3 actions, which precludes raising a shield normally (even with haste). I suppose Reactive shield + Quick Shield Block would work, but it definitely rules out Bespell weapon as an option in the mid-levels.

1) Power Attack
2) Wizard Dedication
4) Basic Spellcasting
6) Reactive Shield
8) Quick Shield Block

is totally doable. And on turns where you don't True Strike, you can power attack + raise shield and shield block twice. That is actually a lot of damage mitigation for as long as your shield holds out. On the other hand, that complicates switching to a 1-handed plus something wizard-y in the other hand.

Consider 2-handed grip switching to 1-handed grip is free (let go with other hand), interact to pull out an item is 1 action, and then generally most spells are 2 interactions (such as a wand of haste).

The same thing while holding a weapon and shield becomes, 1 action to stow the shield, 1 action to pull out the item, and only 1 action left to cast - which usually isn't enough.

I do plan on using the shield spell as long as it lasts, as that works with a 2-handed weapon until you use it to block. So I can pick between +1 AC for the rest of the fight or 10 less damage now.

shroudb wrote:
Nevertheless, haste is almost as good, since it allows a power attack+true strike even on rounds you have to move around.

Agreed, haste was my plan as well for the 3rd level spell slot.


Probably want to grab a familiar, as they'll give you more spell slots as well. It's unclear to me whether you can select the same ability twice, so you're either getting 1 or 2 spell slots (3 below maximum) from this.

Not the best ability, but I don't know of anything that I'd think was particularly better... Plus, PET!

EDIT: As another suggestion, consider Dual-Handed Assault if you're going the Bastard Sword route... It effectively lets you not need to change your grip, bumps your damage die to 1d12 for the attack, and then adds an addition +1 per damage die to the attack. It's what I was planning if going this route. Plus it bumps your defense if you go Dueling Parry. Power Attack is definitely more damage overall, but the other benefits of Dual-Handed assualt (also only one action...) might outweigh that.


Also, thank you so much for this suggestion! I had been trying to figure out a way to make Fighter/Caster work, but the lack of spell slots seemed like a big barrier. I think you found the solution here :).


If you shift the Staff of Divination into a Pick, can you still cast spells with it, or do you have to shift it back first?


SpaceWhale42 wrote:
If you shift the Staff of Divination into a Pick, can you still cast spells with it, or do you have to shift it back first?

I don't see any reason why you can't cast spells through it while its in a different weapon form. The base object that the magical staff is made from, namely the staff from the weapon table, doesn't have any special rules associated with it that lets it cast spells through it any more than the pick from the weapon table does.

Similarly, the Shifting rune has the rules:
"The weapon takes the shape of another melee weapon that requires the same number of hands to wield. The weapon’s runes and any precious material it’s made of apply to the weapon’s new shape. Any property runes that can’t apply to the new form are suppressed until the item takes a shape to which they can apply."

It doesn't say magical effects of the weapon are suppressed - only property runes which can't apply to the new form are suppressed.

So I don't see any issue with this particular combination.


Hiruma Kai wrote:

Similarly, the Shifting rune has the rules:

"The weapon takes the shape of another melee weapon that requires the same number of hands to wield. The weapon’s runes and any precious material it’s made of apply to the weapon’s new shape. Any property runes that can’t apply to the new form are suppressed until the item takes a shape to which they can apply."

It doesn't say magical effects of the weapon are suppressed - only property runes which can't apply to the new form are suppressed.

So I don't see any issue with this particular combination.

The only thing I worry about here is there's a list of things that *do* apply, so the argument could be made that that list is permissive, and therefor anything that's not on that list doesn't work.

I'd agree though, merely "taking the shape" of a new weapon shouldn't affect its abilities, and even things that aren't listed, such as talismans, I'd guess would still transfer over.


Attacking with a Staff page 592 Core Rulebook wrote:
Staves are also staff weapons (page 280), included in their Price. They can be etched with runes as normal for a staff. This doesn’t alter any of their spellcasting abilities.

I believe this would prove that it wouldn’t suppress or hinder their Spellcasting ability even when shifted.


Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Attacking with a Staff page 592 Core Rulebook wrote:
Staves are also staff weapons (page 280), included in their Price. They can be etched with runes as normal for a staff. This doesn’t alter any of their spellcasting abilities.
I believe this would prove that it wouldn’t suppress or hinder their Spellcasting ability even when shifted.

I'm not sure it "proves", but it helps the case of. Etching them with runes wouldn't suppress or hinder their spellcasting ability, but the effects of individual runes might. For example, there may be a berserker rune that lets you rage when you activate it, and I think we'd all agree that that *would* suppress their spellcasting ability.

We're talking specifically about the Shifting rune here, and nothing in that rune says it suppresses other abilities of the weapons, but it also doesn't indicate they *are* allowed either. To me, this could use some developer clarification, but I'd lean heavily towards the intent indicating this is possible, even if RAW doesn't spell it out either way.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Haha. If you guys get that combo banned you'll be seeing me shortly.


tivadar27 wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Attacking with a Staff page 592 Core Rulebook wrote:
Staves are also staff weapons (page 280), included in their Price. They can be etched with runes as normal for a staff. This doesn’t alter any of their spellcasting abilities.
I believe this would prove that it wouldn’t suppress or hinder their Spellcasting ability even when shifted.

I'm not sure it "proves", but it helps the case of. Etching them with runes wouldn't suppress or hinder their spellcasting ability, but the effects of individual runes might. For example, there may be a berserker rune that lets you rage when you activate it, and I think we'd all agree that that *would* suppress their spellcasting ability.

We're talking specifically about the Shifting rune here, and nothing in that rune says it suppresses other abilities of the weapons, but it also doesn't indicate they *are* allowed either. To me, this could use some developer clarification, but I'd lean heavily towards the intent indicating this is possible, even if RAW doesn't spell it out either way.

Specific magic Weapons are able to cast spells and there’s even a Spell Storing Rune. If there’s somewhere it says other weapon types can’t cast spells i don’t see why Shifting would randomly suppress a Staff. The wording in Shifting is clearly meant for contradictions like Shifting a Longsword with Keen, Wounding or Vorpal into a Warhammer; where the effects would be suppressed.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Hiruma Kai wrote:


At 8th level, a staff would have 3 base charges (max 3rd level casting)

Shouldn't you have 4 charges? Since cantrips and focus spells heighten automatically.


HotSauceAssassin wrote:
Hiruma Kai wrote:


At 8th level, a staff would have 3 base charges (max 3rd level casting)
Shouldn't you have 4 charges? Since cantrips and focus spells heighten automatically.

Oh god.... this is actually a really good question. Do auto-heightening spells count? My guess is RAI is no, but "highest level of spell you are able to cast" makes me think that RAW it might. Still, something I'd advise against exploiting, because even if this is RAW I can't see it staying that way.


HotSauceAssassin wrote:
Hiruma Kai wrote:


At 8th level, a staff would have 3 base charges (max 3rd level casting)
Shouldn't you have 4 charges? Since cantrips and focus spells heighten automatically.

It wouldn’t. Cantrips and Focus Spells are described as ‘a Special Type’ of spell. If they intended it to work off of Auto-Heightening they would word it with ‘Half your level rounded up.’


Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
HotSauceAssassin wrote:
Hiruma Kai wrote:


At 8th level, a staff would have 3 base charges (max 3rd level casting)
Shouldn't you have 4 charges? Since cantrips and focus spells heighten automatically.
It wouldn’t. Cantrips and Focus Spells are described as ‘a Special Type’ of spell. If they intended it to work off of Auto-Heightening they would word it with ‘Half your level rounded up.’

... but they are spells, explicitly. I don't disagree that this is RAI as I said, but to say "it wouldn't" you're implying RAW.

I end up playing a lot of PFS, so RAI gets effectively thrown out the window. My responses are what I think the rules as written actually are, and I'm finding it hard not to read this as anything but "I'm able to cast an 8th level spell (heightened cantrip" therefor I get 8 slots". Note that the spells actual level no longer really matters for these purposes.


tivadar27 wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
HotSauceAssassin wrote:
Hiruma Kai wrote:


At 8th level, a staff would have 3 base charges (max 3rd level casting)
Shouldn't you have 4 charges? Since cantrips and focus spells heighten automatically.
It wouldn’t. Cantrips and Focus Spells are described as ‘a Special Type’ of spell. If they intended it to work off of Auto-Heightening they would word it with ‘Half your level rounded up.’

... but they are spells, explicitly. I don't disagree that this is RAI as I said, but to say "it wouldn't" you're implying RAW.

I end up playing a lot of PFS, so RAI gets effectively thrown out the window. My responses are what I think the rules as written actually are, and I'm finding it hard not to read this as anything but "I'm able to cast an 8th level spell (heightened cantrip" therefor I get 8 slots". Note that the spells actual level no longer really matters for these purposes.

I’m going off of RAW where it describes them as ‘a Special Type’ of spell in the Chapter of Spells. When you look at spell descriptions it also lists spells as Cantrip; Focus; and Spell. With Cantrip and Focus Spells it also says they heighten to ‘half you level rounded up’, but Staves say, ‘the highest spell level you can cast.’

Feel free to try it in PFS, i just don’t think it works RAW.


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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:

I’m going off of RAW where it describes them as ‘a Special Type’ of spell in the Chapter of Spells. When you look at spell descriptions it also lists spells as Cantrip; Focus; and Spell. With Cantrip and Focus Spells it also says they heighten to ‘half you level rounded up’, but Staves say, ‘the highest spell level you can cast.’

Feel free to try it in PFS, i just don’t think it works RAW.

Looking at the spel section, you'll note that it's 'spell slots, cantrips, focus and innate... there is no generic 'spells' so it's not really relevant to differentiate any one as a spell and the others not. Note the staff section about prepared/spontaneous casters: prepared gets you extra charges based on the SPELL SLOT you expend, while a spontaneous can spend a charge and a SPELL SLOT. If "gains charges when someone prepares it for the day" meant spells only from one of your spell slots it should have said "spell slots", as that's the spell you get from your Spellcasting class feature as per the spell/magic section. With the wording, cantrips qualify for a staff charge as they are "a special type of spell that doesn’t use spell slots." They are spells but not spell slot ones: The preparing staff section only asked about spell which covers every type and not limited to spell slot ones.


graystone wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:

I’m going off of RAW where it describes them as ‘a Special Type’ of spell in the Chapter of Spells. When you look at spell descriptions it also lists spells as Cantrip; Focus; and Spell. With Cantrip and Focus Spells it also says they heighten to ‘half you level rounded up’, but Staves say, ‘the highest spell level you can cast.’

Feel free to try it in PFS, i just don’t think it works RAW.

Looking at the spel section, you'll note that it's 'spell slots, cantrips, focus and innate... there is no generic 'spells' so it's not really relevant to differentiate any one as a spell and the others not. Note the staff section about prepared/spontaneous casters: prepared gets you extra charges based on the SPELL SLOT you expend, while a spontaneous can spend a charge and a SPELL SLOT. If "gains charges when someone prepares it for the day" meant spells only from one of your spell slots it should have said "spell slots", as that's the spell you get from your Spellcasting class feature as per the spell/magic section. With the wording, cantrips qualify for a staff charge as they are "a special type of spell that doesn’t use spell slots." They are spells but not spell slot ones: The preparing staff section only asked about spell which covers every type and not limited to spell slot ones.

Cool, let me know how it works in a PFS game. Let me clarify for a second time, in my opinion the RAW doesn’t support it; and even with this info, that i’ve already read, i stand by my statement. If i’m wrong on the ruling i’d be just as eager to know for the implications this means as a whole; and not just with staves. :)


The fact that weapons have specific traits ( and it's not that you choose what weapon to use and how to use it ) is one of the things I don't like about pathfinder.

Probably, when possible ( i.e. weapons with range, like polearms or whips ), I'd like to give the player the possibility to choose just what weapon to use, and a bunch of traits for em.

Or eventually, probably even better, play the game with a specific weapon and describe it as another one (as for greatpick, using it as a greatsword or greataxe, because the only thing which knows is the fatal trait ).


I feel that for a Bespell build, a monk is also worth checking.

Bespell affects ALL attacks on a round. And Monks have both the ability to attack more times per round via Flurry AND proc Bespell 1-2 times per fight for free via Ki strike/other powers.

Plus, they can either go with a stance and hold the staff in one hand and still attack with the other, OR go for monastic weapons and use Shifting rune as above.

Something like:
1: stance/monastic
1: (human, or general 3) Ki strike
2: wizard dedication (or Stunning fist if you allow Ancient Elf heritage)
4: basic spellcasting
6: basic arcana (can't recall if there's a wizard feat giving a focus, else probably something like a familiar)
8: advanced arcana (Bespell)
10: stance maneuver/wind jump
12: Expert spellcasting/meditative focus
14: the one you didn't pick from above

There are a few maneuvers that shine with true strike since they have critical success riders (fatal, bleeds, etc)
Plus, if you go with something like wind stance (at 10) you can proc Bespell and go for the wind stance aoe, adding the d6 vs all the targets.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Cool, let me know how it works in a PFS game.

Don't play PFS so... They have their own houserules anyway so who knows how it'll work there or if it'd match the normal rules.

Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Let me clarify for a second time, in my opinion the RAW doesn’t support it; and even with this info, that i’ve already read, i stand by my statement.

That's cool. I read the sections and it reads differently for me. IMO, if the intent was for it to only work off spells you get from spellcaster levels it should have said spell slots to be clear about it. IMO, spells covers pretty much the whole kit and caboodle. Even if the RAI was for it to require slots, IMO the RAW doesn't require it.

Secondly, I wasn't sure what you'd read [you didn't mention spell slots] so I sited sources for my argument. Just wanted to be clear about my stance: both to you and other posters that read it.

Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
If i’m wrong on the ruling i’d be just as eager to know for the implications this means as a whole; and not just with staves. :)

Oh, they could totally rule against me. Or could just leave it in limbo like the dozens of other 'ask your dm' 'rules. :P If you end up right, I just hope they fix the wording to avoid any further confusion in the future.


Staves, Core Rule Book page 592 wrote:
When you do so, that staff gains a number of charges equal to the highest level of spell you’re able to cast.

I'm pretty sure RAI was they meant charges equal to highest level spell slot. There's also a RAW argument to be made depending on how you read the cantrip section of the wizard class.

There's near identical verbiage in the cantrip section of each class:

Cantrips, Core Rule Book page 204 wrote:
A cantrip is a special type of spell that doesn’t use spell slots. You can cast a cantrip at will, any number of times per day. A cantrip is always automatically heightened to half your level rounded up—this is usually equal to the highest level of spell you can cast as a wizard. For example, as a 1st-level wizard, your cantrips are 1st-level spells, and as a 5th-level wizard, your cantrips are 3rd-level spells.

It doesn't make sense to say "this is usually equal to the highest level of spell you can cast" if the cantrip itself is counts as the highest level of spell you can cast - they clearly intended highest level spell slot you have in that phrasing in the classes. "Usually" would have been swapped with "always" or the line probably would have been left out entirely as a tautology.

Or another way to say it, "usually" implies that there are exceptions, and so there will be exceptions where a cantrip heightened to half your level round up is not equal to the highest level of spell you can cast as a wizard. Such as when you're using a multiclass archetype.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Using the build suggestions in this thread, I put a character together. You can preview her in my Crazy Character Emporium thread.

Ravingdork wrote:

NEW CHARACTER!

Jensen, Battle Oracle (LN female half-elf acolyte fighter 11)

...Jensen is a bastard-sword wielding town guardswoman who, between her wizard spell slots and staff of divination, is capable of casting true strike a dozen times per day. This unique capability grants her unparalleled accuracy on many of her most important attacks and allows for frequent use of her Bespell Weapon feat for even more damage.

She also excels at disrupting opponents' actions and has a variety of additional tricks up her sleeve such as being able to boost her speed all day long, fly, turn invisible, use divine scrolls, and more!

It's not all build though! She comes with an exciting backstory detailing her terrible history as a former cultist of Zon-Kuthon, her unusual social rehabilitation and the ongoing threat to the future that it still represents, and her striving to be a defender of the weak despite having only one arm and a head full of dark knowledge. Unbeknownst to her the Prince of Pain's sinister agents are closing in, and it is only a matter of time before they catch up to their prized acolyte.

Enjoy!


Ravingdork wrote:
Using the build suggestions in this thread, I put a character together. You can preview her in my Crazy Character Emporium thread.

Very cool write up.

I have one minor suggestion. I think a wand of heightened longstrider [2nd] cost the same as the the wand of continuation longstrider [1st], but provide 8 hours duration instead of 1.5 hours, while also only taking 2 actions instead of 3 to activate. I think both are 5th level and cost 160 gold.

Its one of those buff items I was considering for my version of the character build, at least later when low level spell items become relatively cheap. At 8 hours its basically an entire adventuring day buff.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Hiruma Kai wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Using the build suggestions in this thread, I put a character together. You can preview her in my Crazy Character Emporium thread.

Very cool write up.

I have one minor suggestion. I think a wand of heightened longstrider [2nd] cost the same as the the wand of continuation longstrider [1st], but provide 8 hours duration instead of 1.5 hours, while also only taking 2 actions instead of 3 to activate. I think both are 5th level and cost 160 gold.

Its one of those buff items I was considering for my version of the character build, at least later when low level spell items become relatively cheap. At 8 hours its basically an entire adventuring day buff.

I actually paid for a 12 hour wand, and just forgot to write the spell level on the character sheet. Thanks for catching that! It should be fixed now.


Ravingdork wrote:
I actually paid for a 12 hour wand, and just forgot to write the spell level on the character sheet. Thanks for catching that! It should be fixed now.

Getting a bit off topic, but I thought continuation wands required the duration to be between 10 minutes and 1 hour. A wand of continuation longstrider [2nd] I don't think is legal. Check the crafting requirements on page 598.

The alternative is simply 2 wands of Longstrider [2nd], which is only 320 gold pieces, and gets you 16 hours a day of speedy movement.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Hiruma Kai wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I actually paid for a 12 hour wand, and just forgot to write the spell level on the character sheet. Thanks for catching that! It should be fixed now.

Getting a bit off topic, but I thought continuation wands required the duration to be between 10 minutes and 1 hour. A wand of continuation longstrider [2nd] I don't think is legal. Check the crafting requirements on page 598.

The alternative is simply 2 wands of Longstrider [2nd], which is only 320 gold pieces, and gets you 16 hours a day of speedy movement.

Wow. They just kind of snuck it at the very end there didn't they? Something like that should really be at the top of the wand write-up. I read over it four times and still missed it, and nearly missed it again when I double checked ALL the wand rules I could find even after you brought it to my attention!

I've updated the character sheet to have a normal 2nd-level wand of longstrider as well as a wand of darkvision. I figure that will be more useful in the long run than two wands of longstrider (there's always the overcharge option if she really needs another 8 hours).


For comparison, here's what I was considering, raised up to level 11. An old school 2nd edition elven fighter/mage/thief. Middle age, having seen and done more than a typical human will ever get a chance to.

Their fighter class provides their combat contribution, leveraging combat buff spells for some synergy. They're highly mobile, with typically 50 speed and jumping options. When all else fails, there's fly. They are better at melee but still a solid ranged threat.

Out of combat they can use scrolls and wands for utility (fly, invisibility, alarm, etc), as well as being reasonably good at a smattering of skills. They're a good trap spotter/disabler and lock picker, and if they are not rushed, basically can't critically fail against disarming any level appropriate trap or lock.

Trick Magic item plus Ancestral Longevity lets them use nearly any magic item after daily prep.

Anyways, here's an example stat block using the Bespell Weapon option in a build.

Elf Martial Disciple
Cavern Elf Fighter 11
Perception +19 (+21 for initiative), Low-light Vision, Darkvision

Languages: Common (Taldane), Elven, Sylvan, Draconic

Skills: Acrobatics +17, Arcana +19 (Master), Athletics +20 (Expert), Medicine +15, Society +15, Stealth +17, Survival +15, Thievery +21 (Master), Warfare Lore +15
At Daily Preparation pick 1 skill to be trained, pick another to go from trained to expert

Str 20 (+5), Dex 19 (+4), Con 14 (+2), Int 14 (+2), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 10 (+0)

Items: +1 resilient breastplate (508 gp), +2 striking shifting staff of divination (1455 gp), +1 striking composite longbow with 40 arrows (120.4 gp), ring of wizardry (type 1) (360 gp), gloves of storing(360gp), spellbook, wand of Longstrider(2nd)(160 gp), scrolls (fly (70gp), haste (30 gp), enlarge (12 gp), invisibility (12 gp), alarm (4 gp), fleet step (4gp)), adventurer's pack(0.7gp), bandolier (0.1gp), healer's tools (expanded) (50gp), thieves' tools (infiltrator) (50 gp), grappling hook (0.1 gp), writing set (1 gp), 27 silver pieces

AC 31; Fort +19, Ref +19, Will +17
HP 149

Speed: 50 feet (40 feet without longstrider)
Melee: +2 striking shifting bastard sword +24 (two-handed d12), damage 2d8+8 slashing
Ranged: +1 striking composite longbow +20 (deadly d10, range increment 100 feet, volley 30 feet), damage 2d8+4 piercing

Arcane Prepared Spells DC 25, attack +15;3rd (1 slot) haste, 1st (3 slots) true strike (3)
Note: 2nd level slot given to staff of divination at prep

Cantrips (6th): shield, prestidigitation, light, ghost sound

Ancestry Feats and Abilities: Darkvision, Nimble Elf, Ageless Patience, Ancestral Longevity (B), Expert Longevity

Class Feats: Power Attack, Wizard Dedication, Basic Wizard Spellcasting, Basic Arcana (Expanded Cantrip), Advanced Arcana (Bespell Weapon), Disruptive Stance

Class Abilities: attack of opportunity, shield block, bravery, fighter weapon mastery, battlefield surveyor, weapon specialization, combat flexibility (typically Sudden Leap), juggernaut, armor expertise, fighter expertise

General Feats: Fleet, Ancestral Paragon, Toughness

Skill Feats: Quick Jump (B), Cat Fall, Powerful Leap, Assurance (Athletics), Trick Magic Item, Recognize Spell


I like it!

Didn't know about the wand of longstrider lvl2 ( mandatory with any character I guess ).

I was thinking, did you consider about a returning rune on the staff instead of a longbow? Let's say you transform your weapon into another one with thrown range, then you should be able to benefit of the bespell weapon at a low/medium range.


K1 wrote:

I like it!

Didn't know about the wand of longstrider lvl2 ( mandatory with any character I guess ).

I was thinking, did you consider about a returning rune on the staff instead of a longbow? Let's say you transform your weapon into another one with thrown range, then you should be able to benefit of the bespell weapon at a low/medium range.

Well the wand is for any character that either casts primal or arcane spells, or takes trick magic item and arcana or nature trained. Its self only, so its not technically for everyone, but somewhat easy to get access. Either a single class feat (to get an appropriate casting multiclass dedication), or 1 skill choice in arcana/nature and trick magic item but with the possibility of failure for that day until fairly high level.

I prefer the bow for longer range (100 feet vs 10-20 feet for example) plus elven weapon expertise at 13 gets you legendary bows proficiency along with sword.

Basically, if they're within 10-20 feet, its much easier for this character to not spend the action to transform the weapon and simply walk or jump the distance and hit them with the sword form. Assurance + Sudden leap at this level gets you a 25 foot vertical jump guaranteed which will let you swing at people 30 feet high. At longer ranges, the bow can come out.

On the other hand, if you were doing the dwarf version, I could totally see doing that though (especially if it doesn't have the same mobility focus). Plus at 13 you can get legendary picks and legendary axes at the same time. Dwarven axe, pick or hatchet as needed.


Understand.

About trick magic item, is there a list of all CD?


IomedaesRightToe wrote:
Phntm888 wrote:
Hiruma Kai wrote:


Only issue I see with that is that to grab a focus spell requires another wizard archetype feat.

As it stands, class feats for the build go like:

1) Power Attack (or other 1st level fighter feat)
2) Wizard Dedication
4) Basic Wizard spellcasting
6) Basic Arcana (Cantrip Expansion? - don't see any good options here)
8) Advanced Aracana to grab Bespell Weapon

Just saying - for Basic Arcana, instead of cantrip expansion, you could take the Hand of the Apprentice feat, which gives you the Hand of the Apprentice focus spell. That gives you both a focus spell and a ranged attack option with your primary weapon, just in case.
I don't think you can take Hand of the Apprentice. Hand of the Apprentice has "Universalist Wizard" as a prerequisite, which is a function of the "Arcane School" wizard class feature, which you do not get from the wizard dedication. Therefore, without starting as wizard, you can't satisfy the prerequisite.

Well, shoot. So it does. Shows me for not double-checking the rules before posting.

Maybe they'll eventually have a multiclass feat that allows you to have an Arcane School.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
K1 wrote:

Understand.

About trick magic item, is there a list of all CD?

The GameMaster Chapter offers the following DCs.

DCs for magical items that utilize spells (wands, scrolls, and such) should probably be as follows:

Table 10-5: DCs by Level

Spell Level / DC*
1st / 15
2nd / 18
3rd / 20
4th / 23
5th / 26
6th / 28
7th / 31
8th / 34
9th / 36
10th / 39

* If the spell is uncommon or rare, its difficulty should be adjusted accordingly

Magical items that aren't spell based should probably use the item's level to set the DC:

Level / DC
00 / 14
01 / 15
02 / 16
03 / 18
04 / 19
05 / 20
06 / 22
07 / 23
08 / 24
09 / 26
10 / 27
11 / 28
12 / 30
13 / 31
14 / 32
15 / 34
16 / 35
17 / 36
18 / 38
19 / 39
20 / 40
21 / 42
22 / 44
23 / 46
24 / 48
25 / 50

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