Does Metamagic cleric feat "Reach Spell" have to be cast in the same round as the following spell??


Rules Discussion


My question is specifically for the Key Terms Metamagic on page 121 in the 2E core rulebook.

My example would be for my character's 3rd action on the combat round. I would cast my cleric feat "Reach Spell" taking up my last action of the round, for my next action which is next combat round (assuming no free action/reaction/or being hit) after that. Am I able to put reach on a 3 action heal spell the next round?

The reason I ask is I would figure the metamagic tag for use description would mention in the same turn or immediately rather than directly before the spell you want to cast, showing action order and not timing.

Asking this question to see if I want to pick up reach and use with the 3 action heal for AOE undead/party healer, before I build my cleric.

Thank you!!
Krech


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
Krechevskoy wrote:

My question is specifically for the Key Terms Metamagic on page 121 in the 2E core rulebook.

My example would be for my character's 3rd action on the combat round. I would cast my cleric feat "Reach Spell" taking up my last action of the round, for my next action which is next combat round (assuming no free action/reaction/or being hit) after that. Am I able to put reach on a 3 action heal spell the next round?

The reason I ask is I would figure the metamagic tag for use description would mention in the same turn or immediately rather than directly before the spell you want to cast, showing action order and not timing.

Asking this question to see if I want to pick up reach and use with the 3 action heal for AOE undead/party healer, before I build my cleric.

Thank you!!
Krech

I don't think Reach Spell works on emanations (which is what a 3 action Heal is).

However, by RAW I dont see why you couldn't use Reach Spell as your last action the round before you cast the spell you want to apply it to. Just don't take any free actions or reactions between turns or the effect is lost.


You have to do it all in one round. If no one provides the rules citation before tomorrow I’ll look it up.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
Core Rulebook, page 304 wrote:
Many spellcasters can gain access to metamagic actions, typically by selecting metamagic feats. Actions with the metamagic trait tweak the properties of your spells, changing their range, damage, or any number of other properties. You must use a metamagic action directly before the spell you want to alter. If you use any action (including free actions, reactions, and additional metamagic actions) other than Cast a Spell directly after, you waste the benefits of the metamagic action. Any additional effects added by a metamagic action are part of the spell’s effect, not of the metamagic action itself.

Perhaps there's something hiding in the rules elsewhere, but this is the Metamagic sidebar in the spells section.


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As far as I can tell there's nothing that prevents it. It would be rather odd to me if you have spells that have natural cast time greater than one round but can't meta-magic across multiple rounds. It would also create an issue when casting out-of-combat and therefore not even counting in rounds.

Xenocrat wrote:
You have to do it all in one round. If no one provides the rules citation before tomorrow I’ll look it up.

Please do because I can't find anything that says that.


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There is this "You have to spend all the actions of an activity at once to gain its effects. In an encounter, this means you must complete it during your turn." However metamagic makes it clear it's not the same action. "Any additional effects added by a metamagic action are part of the spell’s effect, not of the metamagic action itself." This makes it clear the metamagic it it's own action.

Doing it though prevents any action like reactions or you lose the metamagic: "If you use any action (including free actions, reactions, and additional metamagic actions) other than Cast a Spell directly after, you waste the benefits of the metamagic action." Note you just lose the metmagic, further proving it's not part of the spell action.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm guessing it would not specify reactions if it was not intended to work across rounds.


Campbell wrote:
I'm guessing it would not specify reactions if it was not intended to work across rounds.

Lifelink: your familiar could do something stupid and go to 0 hp in your round. Also any reaction to a readied action like Recognize Spell vs a readied single action magic missile. A Contingency spell.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
graystone wrote:
Campbell wrote:
I'm guessing it would not specify reactions if it was not intended to work across rounds.
Lifelink: your familiar could do something stupid and go to 0 hp in your round. Also any reaction to a readied action like Recognize Spell vs a readied single action magic missile. A Contingency spell.

Those are great examples, and they would void the benefits of the metamagic action if they occured but would not prevent a spellcaster from *attempting* to bridge two rounds in this way.


Wheldrake wrote:
graystone wrote:
Campbell wrote:
I'm guessing it would not specify reactions if it was not intended to work across rounds.
Lifelink: your familiar could do something stupid and go to 0 hp in your round. Also any reaction to a readied action like Recognize Spell vs a readied single action magic missile. A Contingency spell.
Those are great examples, and they would void the benefits of the metamagic action if they occured but would not prevent a spellcaster from *attempting* to bridge two rounds in this way.

*nods* I was just pointing out that what Campbell wasn't right: there WHERE reactions that could happen on your turn. My last post was in no way a judgment on it working across rounds.

On that subject, I see nothing that prevents you from trying it though it's at the risk of losing that metamagic action.


The "directly after" wording was clarified during the playtest as "no, it has to be this turn, not next turn" because "ending your turn" broke "directly after."


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Campbell wrote:
I'm guessing it would not specify reactions if it was not intended to work across rounds.

There are reactions that can happen on your turn, though. It's not a great example for this particular situation, but if you start your turn by casting shield, moved and provoked an attack and got hit, you could use your reaction to shield block. I haven't gone through the entire spell list in a while, but some of those are reactions instead of actions, and I'm betting a lot of magic items grant reactions, too. I would not take specifying reactions as an indication that you can use metamagic across turns.

"You must use a metamagic action *directly* before Casting the Spell you want to alter."
It's not the most crystal clear thing in the world, but I think the word directly indicates that it should happen on your turn. It might not be clear enough to be RAW, but it's clear enough to me that it's RAI, and at the very least, specifying reactions does not indicate anything.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber
Draco18s wrote:
The "directly after" wording was clarified during the playtest as "no, it has to be this turn, not next turn" because "ending your turn" broke "directly after."

Do you have a link to this clarification?

Turn-based combat can create the illusion of significant time lapse between turns when in reality, as soon as one's turn is over, one's next turn begins very soon after. Fractions of a second are what separate turns. So I would rule that Metamagic used in this way follows directly after (provided no aforementioned reactions, free actions, etc. take place).


Applied_People wrote:
Draco18s wrote:
The "directly after" wording was clarified during the playtest as "no, it has to be this turn, not next turn" because "ending your turn" broke "directly after."
Do you have a link to this clarification?

I do not. I'll see if I can dig something up, but the forum search is awful.

Yeah, all I can dig up right now is this thread:
Bespell Weapon Timing (in which I make ridiculous, but not impossible, interpretations of RAW wording and no Paizo staff are involved).


While this doesn't do much to clarify intent for Metamagic, there's places where "next action" almost certainly does *not* mean "immediately after." For example, the Animated Broom's "Dust" ability works pretty poorly if it only works if it's the Broom's last action and the affected creature is next in initiative order.

On the other hand, there are places where the opposite is true - where things make less sense if "next action" is allowed to span turns. For example, the Wall Jump skill feat says " If you’re adjacent to a wall at the end of a jump[...]you don’t fall as long as your next action is another jump." It's hard for me to read that as intending to span multiple turns, as the player doesn't take their next action until everybody else goes first.

That said, neither of those things have the "directly after" wording associated with them.


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I agree that the "directly before casting the spell" very strongly implies that the spell must be cast that same turn.

The only thing not mentioned above that I would add is from the "Starting your turn" language (pg 468)
"The last step of starting your turn is always the same:
Regain your 3 actions and 1 reaction. If you haven’t spent your reaction from your last turn, you lose it—you can’t “save” actions or reactions from one turn to use during the next turn."

So you can't carry Reach Spell (or any metamagic feat) over to the next round because, once you use all 3 actions you don't have a "next action." Once your turn ends you don't have any actions to use as your next action, as there is no "next action" the use of the feat is lost.

Also consider "Ending your Turn"
"End any effects that last until the end of your turn. For example, spells with a sustained duration end at the end of your turn unless you used the Sustain a Spell action during your turn to extend them. Some effects caused by enemies might also last through a certain number of your turns, and you decrease the remaining duration by 1 during this step, ending the effect if its duration is reduced to 0."

As the Reach Spell does not have a duration of 1 round (until beginning of next turn, until end of next turn, etc), it ends at the end of your turn.

TLDR;
RAW- strongly implied that can't use reach spell on one turn and cast spell on next.
RAI- 100% obvious this is not allowed.


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Sorry for necro-ing this thread, but I'm wondering if this has been addressed anywhere by the devs yet? Reading all of the above I still don't see why one would not be able to do this. Either way, the caster is burning a valuable action with the metamagic feat, and it's not exactly game-breaking to allow metamagic to apply to 3-action spells.

This is particularly true since Widen explicitly does not apply to any spells with a duration, which it seems all or nearly all 3-action spells have. So that leaves Reach. Is adding 30 feet of range to a spell such a big deal that it would not be allowed for a 3 action spell at all? Here are some examples of 3-action spells with a range:

Black Tentacles: range 120 ft
Blade Barrier: range 120 ft
Chromatic Wall: range 120 ft
Circle of Protection: range Touch
Cloudkill: range 120ft

So for an action at the end of a round you add 30 ft of range to a spell that has 120ft already.

I think a more common usage would actually be to add 30 ft to a 2-action spell this way, but I still don't see an issue with doing it with a metamagic feat at the end of a round to apply to a spell which will be cast at the beginning of the next round. Caster risks wasting a valuable action if something happens requiring a reaction before her next turn, so it's not exactly a freebie. For that matter, after everyone else has gone it may no longer make sense to cast a spell as the first action of her next turn. So considerable risk for minimal reward.

I'm not of the opinion that every feat should be uber-powerful, but they should get you something.

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