Best cantrip for Wayfinder Resonance Tinkerer feat?


Advice


Wayfinder Res Tinkerer Thank you for stopping by!

So this archetype feat allows you to get more benefit out of a wayfinder. In specific you can choose one cantrip fo get with a wayfindier.

Now as near as I can tell you make this choice when you pick up the feat... and thats it. You can never change it (Well.. I guess you could untrain the feat. then take it again techicnally?).

So what cantrip do you think is the best bang for your buck?

Also.. I do note it doesn't seem to restrict common or uncommon.. So I guess you can take any cantrip? Which I guess makes sense given the flavor text and source. But does anyone know a reason why you couldn't take any since it says choose one cantrip from the lists, and not "choose one common cantrip" etc?
Could this in theory be used to obtain uncommon ones? Like Inspire Competence or Protective Ward?
Given the power level of other "get a cantrip" feats that don't require 2 costly items in specific (Much less said item in your hand) it seems entirely reasonable to assume it isn't a mistake and you can get any cantrip that exist on the lists.

Any recommendations on what Stone to use in a wayfinder ? Off hand the lv 7 stone that gives you 1/day Heal and saves you from death once (Before breaking basically) seems like the most useful choice of hand. But I'd love other's thoughts!

Wayfinders and stones are painful costly though sadly.
I personally am picking up the Pathfinder Agent on my Alchemist to suppliment their support abiltiies. But a general idea on cantrips you think are good is great.


Zwordsman wrote:
Could this in theory be used to obtain uncommon ones? Like Inspire Competence or Protective Ward?

No. The feat says you pick a cantrip from one of the four spell lists. The bard's composition cantrips are not part of any spell list. The same is true for Protective Ward and that one is not even a cantrip.

As for which cantrip to choose, I'd probably avoid anything with an attack roll or saving throw. Shield is always nice if you don't wield a physical shield already. Detect Magic is also always useful.

Other than that, any utility cantrip will probably serve you best. Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Read Aura, Dancing Lights, Message, Prestidigitation.


Ah good point thanks!

hm. speaking of that.. If you're getting an at will cantrip from this feat. That means that it uses your Charisma as the casting stat? and.. you have no profiencies in it right?

hm I also need to go read up on the "heightened" thing and see if it would for this sort of thing. I was assuming it would but I really know little about casting so far.

---
Guidance was somewhat tempting, because in theory I could use it at the start of exploration mode on myself or the allies. Since one roll occurs for the whole activity it would provide a long term mini bonus.. I think?

but it is limited by need to roll soon and cooldown of an hour.


Zwordsman wrote:

Also.. I do note it doesn't seem to restrict common or uncommon.. So I guess you can take any cantrip? Which I guess makes sense given the flavor text and source. But does anyone know a reason why you couldn't take any since it says choose one cantrip from the lists, and not "choose one common cantrip" etc?

Could this in theory be used to obtain uncommon ones?

No. Read up on Rarity & Access on page 488. Having a widely-available item that automatically, without GM say-so, let you pick any uncommmon cantrip would lose the point of the rarity system---especially since by the same "it doesn't say common only" logic you could pick a rare or even unique cantrip!

Everything is restricted to common, only, unless a rules element or the GM explicitly says "you get access."

Ambiguous Rules, page 444 wrote:
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is.


Zwordsman wrote:
That means that it uses your Charisma as the casting stat? and.. you have no profiencies in it right?

Charisma is the default casting stat for innate spells. The Wayfinder feat unfortunately doesn't specify that the cantrip you cast is an innate spell (and it probably shouldn't be because it comes from an item). Defaulting to charisma is probably a good choice, but as written, it's utterly unclear which ability score to use.

This lack of clarity is the main reason why I wouldn't take anything with an attack roll or save.

You can add your spellcasting proficiency if you have the one matching the cantrip's tradition. So a Wizard coulduse his Arcane spell proficiency for any Arcane Cantrip cast via this feat. If you aren't proficient with the cantrip's tradition, you would get no proficiency bonus whatsoever. Again, it's probably a good idea to default to the innate spell rule that you're always at least considered trained.

Quote:
hm I also need to go read up on the "heightened" thing and see if it would for this sort of thing. I was assuming it would but I really know little about casting so far.

All cantrips are automatically heightened unless something explicitely states otherwise. I don't think there is someting like that in the game right now.

Quote:
Guidance was somewhat tempting, because in theory I could use it at the start of exploration mode on myself or the allies. Since one roll occurs for the whole activity it would provide a long term mini bonus.. I think?

That's something many GMs would probably not allow. You might roll the check at the start of exploration but its effect can last for hours, which should be beyond the ability of Guidance.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Blave wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:
Could this in theory be used to obtain uncommon ones? Like Inspire Competence or Protective Ward?

No. The feat says you pick a cantrip from one of the four spell lists. The bard's composition cantrips are not part of any spell list. The same is true for Protective Ward and that one is not even a cantrip.

As for which cantrip to choose, I'd probably avoid anything with an attack roll or saving throw. Shield is always nice if you don't wield a physical shield already. Detect Magic is also always useful.

Other than that, any utility cantrip will probably serve you best. Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Read Aura, Dancing Lights, Message, Prestidigitation.

I'd stay away from Shield or other cantrips that are most useful in combat; I'm pretty sure you need to have your wayfinder in hand to cast the spell. Any of the utility cantrips you listed are good choices since you don't really mind pulling the wayfinder out of your pocket to send a message to a party member and putting it back during exploration mode.


Hm.
Light, message, prestidigitation, Mage hand seem like the best choices. Requiring the Wayfinder in hand certainly causes some problems with other things. Shame you can't keep up with attack. I would really love if it could pull of Tanglefoot.

I had been thinking that Stablize would be good, but I dont think one would have the Wayfinder "in hand" at the time.

Speaking of the activation situation. ". Additionally, you can Activate your wayfinder with a Single Action (envision) activation to transform it into a nondescript pin or brooch to hide your affiliation with the Pathfinder Society. This transformation lasts for 1 hour."

If you had it as a pin or brooch--attached on your coller or maybe sleeve, would that let you have access to it without having to interact to draw it?

If so, then Stablize could be a potential one. Would work well with the resournace stone that gives heal and the dying level avoidance.
---

Overall I'm having a hard time seeing this choice compete with the other posible Pathfinder Agent choices.
----
I really have problems thinking of when Guidance would really be used much. (On a normal caster even). If the duration was longer, or if the 1hr wasn't so long, then I could see its use. But as it stands it feels difficult to compete.


Guidance has a time limit for the check as well.

You can't apply it to checks that take more than the duration of the spell.


shroudb wrote:

Guidance has a time limit for the check as well.

You can't apply it to checks that take more than the duration of the spell.

Nothing in the spell says that.

Only the Imperial Bloodline's Acestral Memory focus power does have such a caveat.


Blave wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Guidance has a time limit for the check as well.

You can't apply it to checks that take more than the duration of the spell.

Nothing in the spell says that.

Only the Imperial Bloodline's Acestral Memory focus power does have such a caveat.

"Duration: until the start of your next turn"


shroudb wrote:
"Duration: until the start of your next turn"

It also says "You ask for divine guidance, granting the target a +1 status bonus to one attack roll, Perception check, saving throw, or skill check the target attempts before the duration ends."

I read that only as "you must roll the check before the end of your next turn". The activity you're using the check for could still go beyond the duration, i.e. you don't need to actually finish the activity during the duration.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Blave wrote:
shroudb wrote:
"Duration: until the start of your next turn"

It also says "You ask for divine guidance, granting the target a +1 status bonus to one attack roll, Perception check, saving throw, or skill check the target attempts before the duration ends."

I read that only as "you must roll the check before the end of your next turn". The activity you're using the check for could still go beyond the duration, i.e. you don't need to actually finish the activity during the duration.

i would never allow a "1 turn check" to be an 8hour+ long duration activity.

a check that is supposed to span an activity repeated over multiple of hours is not done in mere 6 seconds of time. It is done in all this time combined. (regardless if it's just 1 roll)

That's like saying "here, for the next 6 seconds you're a bit better in Perception. So you should use those 6 seconds to scout for 4hours ahead".

(Plus, in *most* exploration activities, you don't even "pre-roll", but you roll only when something appropriate for said roll occurs)


I'm not talking about exploration activities. I even said most GMs would not allow Guidance to cover an hour(s) long activity. That includes myself as a GM.

I was more thinking about stuff that takes a minute or two. Maybe an Intimidation check for Coercion or something like that. By RAW, you make the check at the end of that minute which would make Guidance awkward to use. I'd just let a character cast it before that minute starts.


Blave wrote:

I'm not talking about exploration activities. I even said most GMs would not allow Guidance to cover an hour(s) long activity. That includes myself as a GM.

I was more thinking about stuff that takes a minute or two. Maybe an Intimidation check for Coercion or something like that. By RAW, you make the check at the end of that minute which would make Guidance awkward to use. I'd just let a character cast it before that minute starts.

ah i thought you were talking about exploration, sorry.

For long duration activities, i would personally rule case by case.

Regardless of "when" you make the roll (which by definition of a game, you will have to make once and not like a dozen of times), there are some activities that actually rely on continuously trying to achieve success throughtout the duration of the activity, so it still seems sketchy to me to allow a "last second cast to augment" those checks.

but in some (few) occasions, i may houserule something like a "sustained casting of the spell" to cover the whole activity.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
CRB > Game Mastering > Downtime > Checks wrote:
Some downtime activities require rolls, typically skill checks. Because these rolls represent the culmination of a series of tasks over a long period, players can’t use most abilities or spells that manipulate die rolls, such as activating a magic item to gain a bonus or casting a fortune spell to roll twice. Constant benefits still apply, though, so someone might invest a magic item that gives them a bonus without requiring activation. You might make specific exceptions to this rule. If something could apply constantly, or so often that it might as well be constant, it’s more likely to be used for downtime checks.

So guidance is useless in downtime mode. While I can't find equivalent text for exploration mode{*}, I'm personally inclined to extend the downtime logic there by disallowing use of any die-munging effect whose duration doesn't cover the entire activity it's munging. YMMV.

{*} While Coerce isn't an "Exploration Activity (TM)" that you engage in for hours, it is something you can only do in exploration mode.


I don't think the wayfinder would need to be in hand as it says "You can activate your wayfinder to cast that cantrip at will." and the activation is command.

"Command
This component is a specific utterance you must make in a loud and strong voice. Activate an Item gains the auditory and concentrate traits. You must be able to speak to provide this component."

Between that and it being a worn magic item, I can't see a reason it'd need a hand. "Usage worn" Now an Archaic Wayfinder has to be held.


How do you wear what is basically a compass? Is it on a string?


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
How do you wear what is basically a compass? Is it on a string?

My guess, like a pocket watch. So on a belt, around the neck, worn like a broach.


Hm. That would open it up a bit if you could wear it and its command not activation. I could see that with the "at will" plus it would make sense given the context of its own ability to "hide" itself.

That would probably make Stablize a fairly useful cantrip no?
Other strong options to me are mage hand, and message.
Light and other choices can be replicated through physical work (throwing torches around or sun rods. THough not exactly great). Stablize wouls require successfull medicine checks or the dying player flat checks.

So not readily applicable all the time but seemingly when it would be used, it would be quite useful.

That seem like a fair assessment to folks?


Obviously, I think that we can agree the only real choice here is Know Direction.


Zwordsman wrote:

Hm. That would open it up a bit if you could wear it and its command not activation. I could see that with the "at will" plus it would make sense given the context of its own ability to "hide" itself.

That would probably make Stablize a fairly useful cantrip no?
Other strong options to me are mage hand, and message.
Light and other choices can be replicated through physical work (throwing torches around or sun rods. THough not exactly great). Stablize wouls require successfull medicine checks or the dying player flat checks.

So not readily applicable all the time but seemingly when it would be used, it would be quite useful.

That seem like a fair assessment to folks?

No need for light as the basic wayfinder already gives you that. Other than that, it's seems like a good assessment.

Myself, I have a soft spot for Prestidigitation: IMO it's a great quality of life spell. For practical uses Tidy [Color, clean, or soil] can help with conceal/hide/stealth by helping to blend in and the clean function can help with perception checks to find things normally covered in dirt/filth/grime and is great to lessen the chances of disease if you take a 'dip' in something nasty like a sewer. You might even be able to sweet talk your DM into a bonus in craft when making food/drink by using Cook [Cool, warm, or flavor].

Shield is still a solid option IMO. Even if you normally have a shield/buckler it gives you the shield block option that scales as you level. Taking 5-25 damage off an attack once per fight isn't bad.

Message is fairly niche IMO. Myself, I've never really had a lot of need for secret communication in an average game.

Mage Hand is interesting: as you level it maxes at 60' and 2 bulk and that's a lot of possibilities. Even at base, it's 30' and L bulk. Both a grappling hook and rope are L so you can use it to set the hook then send up a rope with loop tied in it and drop the loop in the hook. After that you just climb the rope with a much lower DC.

Dancing Lights/Ghost Sounds can be used for distractions but throwing a temporary object from Prestidigitation [make] can do the same IMO.

Guidance is a fine spell too: for instance, if you have thievery you can Guidance every round [one action] before you Pick Lock or Disable Device [2 actions]. Or you can attack, use guidance and Demoralize. Or find some writing on a wall and cast the spell before you read through it for a bonus on the Recall check. Really, if you are using 1 or 2 action skill uses it's a free bonus on them all.


Thanks!

Prestidigitation is interesting, but most of the funnier effects are only until sustain so some fun things are harder to do (weird hair colour was fun character flavor~). I hadn't thought of the cleaning effect-though it seems to take a while? but that isn't really an issue.
------
I don't think you can guidance every round and ssuch. Since it has a 1hr cool down. " Either way, the target is then temporarily immune for 1 hour."
You do get a great small boost every hour though. Which I like. But it also sounds a bit granularly annoying. Having to ask "how much time has passed" in some cases can be a pain for some stuff.
Though P2 does time sequences better to me now.

I like it, but the 1hr makes it harder to consider when to use it, I wish the cooldown lowered as it heightneend--actually it has no heightning effects I know of. Which seems a bit odd to me. but I also haven't exactly a ton of knowledge on magic yet.(I'm an Alch lover)

---
Wait can you do fine work with a mage hand? I thought it could only levitate something, it can set a hook, or tie a rope to it?
I was mostly thinking flavor, or for dropping poisoned foods into an area like Tenchu games. Also using it to fling a an emerency item to an ally. (either interact+mage hand, or quick alchemy +mage hand)
but if it can properly take some kind of action, then in theory it could apply contact poisons too.


Prestidigitation: All the listed abilities are permanent. "Any actual change to an object (beyond what is noted above) persists only as long as you Sustain the Spell." The sustain seems to be for the Lift, cool and warm functions. As to Tidy, it's 3 min for a small person and 6 for a medium person. [Bulk of Creatures, page #272] As for areas, it seems they didn't bring that over from PF1 sadly, so it looks to be up to the DM. [PF1 had 1-foot cube cleaned each round]

Guidance: you are 1000% correct. Had a senior moment as my brain went back to the PF1 version. Yeah with the 1 hour limit I give it a pass.

Mage hand: no fine work/manipulation [IMO] so that why you have to do the work before hand: make the loop in the rope first and have a grappling hook with an open hook where you attach instead of a closed loop. That way you're just dropping the loop on the hook instead of anything fine/fancy work like tying rope. As to setting the hook, it's pretty much lowering the hook to the surface and dragging it across until it catches on something, like a tree, rock, ect.

In the end, it can manipulate an object with a single hand: "You create a single magical hand, either invisible or ghostlike, that grasps the target object". So it could use chalk write on the wall but it couldn't use a rope to untie itself.

Quick alchemy: you can do that but it's your entire round with a 20' range. That's fine with a single item but as you level you'll be able to make multiple items and you wouldn't be able to use that ability as they go bad at the start of your turn.

Poison: I think you'd be good using it. "Applying alchemical poisons uses Interact actions. A poison typically requires one hand to pour into food or scatter in the air." Pour and scatter aren't fine manipulation IMO.


Thanks for the answers!


Zwordsman wrote:
Thanks for the answers!

No problem, happy to help. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Message is a cantrip that is always useful for group communication. If having to select one without any knowledge of your character, that is what I would choose. Otherwise if you are a dandy or a face, I would select prestidigitation so that you can always arrive with clean clothes.

Hmm

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Advice / Best cantrip for Wayfinder Resonance Tinkerer feat? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.