Basic Starting Equipment

[Dragonchess Player]

Since I didn't see this mentioned, the SDF (being a military organization) would probably issue each PC a uniform (Clothing, Uniform)* after finishing basic training and "highly encourage" that all SDF personnel obtain the following items in addition to their weapons and armor:
Knife, Survival (as a basic tool as well as a weapon)**
Comm Unit, Personal
Backpack, Consumer or Backpack, Industrial
Canteen
Gear Maintenance Kit or Engineering Toolkit (if not a mechanic with a Custom Rig)
Hygiene Kit (basic disease prevention in field conditions)
Mess Kit

Also, if someone has a Datapad (or a more customized tier 1 computer), then they will probably be given a chance to load a Map, Survey on it before the start of their patrol.

*- at 5 cr each, it's not a tremendous expense compared to the training costs; if you're feeling nice, you could issue them Environmental (Cold Climate) Uniforms (30 cr each), although they might not be in sufficient supply
**- races with natural equivalents (such as uplifted bears) can probably get by without

[Metaphysician]

Honestly, professional soldiers should probably have considerably more than that as basic equipment. At the very least: rations, basic first aid gear, and binoculars or the equivalent.

[Dragonchess Player]

R2Es are pretty obvious and only 1 cr each. A Medpatch is fairly expensive (for a 1st level character) at 50 cr for a single-use item; a Medkit, Basic is 100 cr. At least one character should have a skill rank in Medicine and a Medkit, but probably not all of them. Binoculars are 50 cr, which makes for a tough choice; by the time the character has invested in a weapon (or possibly two or three), possibly physical ammunition and/or a spare battery (or two), and armor, there usually isn't much left of the 1,000 cr. One character might want to have a Fire Extiguisher, if they can afford it.

From a narrative perspective, being on the losing end of a war that's been going on for a while, the PCs (as fresh out of basic training) aren't likely to be lavishly equipped for their first patrol.

As far as weapons/armor go, a four person team should probably consist of:
1) One PC with a heavy weapon. A Subzero Hailcannon (275 cr) is probably a decent choice; an Ember Agitator (330 cr) or a Light Reaction Cannon (250 cr) are also options. An Azimuth Artillery Laser (425 cr) is pricey and, at 2 charges per shot, probably not the best idea for sustained operations without a ready source of batteries; a Static Arc Caster (375 cr, 2 charges per shot, Unwieldy), Exhorter Shout Projector (420 cr, 2 charges per shot, Nonlethal, Unwieldy), and a Red Star Conqueror (430 cr, 4 charges per shot, Unwieldy) are as bad or even worse. A Merc NIL Grenade Launcher (280 cr), because of the cost of grenades, is a bad idea except for a soldier with Bombard style.
2) One PC with a sniper weapon. A Tactical Diasporan Rifle (350 cr) or Precision Coil Rifle (390 cr) are probably the best choices available for a 1st level character; a Tactical Shobhad Horizon Striker (440 cr) may also be an option, but is less flexible in combat (two shots before reloading).
3) The other PCs should have Longarms Proficiency (either through their class or a feat). A Needler Rifle (110 cr) is probably the most cost-efficient option, but a Hunting Rifle (240 cr) can also work. A Tactical Numbing Beam (370 cr, Nonlethal) a Pulscaster (100 cr, Nonlethal), or a Shout Rifle (450 cr) are not good choices for this situation. A Gulchgun (90 cr) is cheap, but the short range increment (20 ft) makes it better as a backup instead of a primary; similarly, a Utility Scattergun (235 cr) isn't a good primary in this situation. A Flame Rifle (490 cr, 5 petrol charges per shot) or a Tremor Boomer Rifle (520 cr), like some of the heavy weapons, are not the best idea for sustained operations. A Dazzler Flare Rifle (445 cr) is a pricey, but decent option for a teamwork-minded character. Likewise, an Azimuth Laser Rifle (425 cr) is a pricey, but decent option. A Tactical Plasma Bolter (260 cr, 4 charges per shot) is fairly inexpensive and does good damage, but will go through charges quickly. An Acid Dart Rifle (485 cr) is a sub-optimal choice against the swarm (many of them have acid resistance).
4) Some good small arm choices include: Needler Pistol (105 cr), Subzero Hail Pistol (120 cr), Electrocellular Plasma Claw (280 cr, 2 charges per shot, Living; if you can handle the aesthetics), and Tactical Semi-Auto Pistol (260 cr). A Bruiser Decoupler (420 cr), Flame Pistol (470 cr), Azimuth Laser Pistol (350 cr), or Harmonic Dirge Pistol are probably too expensive to be worth starting with. An Illuminator Mercy Pistol (275 cr, Nonlethal) or Pulsecaster Pistol (250 cr) are not good choices for this situation.
5) Armor will probably be Second Skin (250 cr), Troop Ceremonial Plate (110 cr; watch out for the -10 ft speed penalty, though), Golemforged Plating I (250 cr; the -10 ft speed penalty and Max Dex Bonus of 0 sucks, however), Lashunta Ringwear I (415 cr), Hidden Soldier Armor (465 cr), or possibly Worker Formian Plate (480 cr; the Max Dex Bonus of 1 gives it a worse EAC, though).

[Ixal]

Better not think too much about what people should have, otherwise you might start to wonder why military troops would only ever be equipped with lvl 1-2 gear except for metagame reasons that can't be explained in game.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

Actually, there's a really easy explanation, you're just willfully not seeing it

[Pantshandshake]

Ixal, have you considered that maybe, just maybe, that just because there's a post in this forum that mentions equipment, it doesn't mean you have to come in and let everyone know, AGAIN, that you can't wrap your head around item levels?

Like, we get it, you've repeated it enough. We've also tried using our imaginations for you, and it didn't work. So I'll try something else.

Seriously. Stop it. Go make your own thread to discuss your issues.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

R2Es are pretty obvious and only 1 cr each. A Medpatch is fairly expensive (for a 1st level character) at 50 cr for a single-use item; a Medkit, Basic is 100 cr. At least one character should have a skill rank in Medicine and a Medkit, but probably not all of them. Binoculars are 50 cr, which makes for a tough choice; by the time the character has invested in a weapon (or possibly two or three), possibly physical ammunition and/or a spare battery (or two), and armor, there usually isn't much left of the 1,000 cr. One character might want to have a Fire Extiguisher, if they can afford it.

From a narrative perspective, being on the losing end of a war that's been going on for a while, the PCs (as fresh out of basic training) aren't likely to be lavishly equipped for their first patrol.

I would suggest considering adding something like specialist equipment packages. Maybe another 200 credits of non-weapon or armor equipment meant to supplement each character's presumed role in the squad. One of the great things about item level in Starfinder is that as long as you remain within the level guidelines, it is a bit difficult to break the game no matter how much gear you have.

[Metaphysician]

You know, I'd actually see this as a good reason for why an army wouldn't want to outfit its basic infantry with vastly more expensive gear. Lets say you have grunts with Azimuth Laser Rifles as their standard ( lvl 1 ). You *could* pay to get each grunt a Corona Laser Rifle instead ( lvl 6 ), which would give them moderately higher damage ( 2d6 vs 1d8 ), and double the shots per clip. However, it would cost more than 4000 credits extra per soldier. And if you have that much budget per soldier, which would actually increase the utility of your army more? Those upgraded laser rifles. . . or an extra 4000 credits of miscellaneous gear per soldier? Hell, even cut that in half, and you'd still probably be better off requisitioning an extra 2000 credits worth of supplemental gear ( survival equipment, medical equipment, extra ammo, sensors, cyberware ), versus the upgraded laser rifles.

Now, granted, this still begs questions of realism, involving how much soldiers cost to recruit and train versus the cost of their equipment. However, I am more than willing to handwave that with the simple explanation: the kind of soldiers, produced by a good quality training program, who'd logically have the equipment funding to easily afford higher level weapons/armor as their baseline? Are not actually level 1 NPCs in the first place, but higher level. . . more or less in line with the level requirement for their gear. A first rate army doesn't produce or field vast hoards of Level 1 Soldiers under normal circumstances, but highly trained and disciplined Level 5 Soldiers. Level 1 Soldiers are either recruits not yet finished with their training, soldiers for second rate armies with lesser standards of training, or conscripts inducted en mass during desperate situations; all of which serve as good reasons for them not having first rate gear.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

I think the answer here is actually perfectly demonstrated by this AP. A lot of nations today and what you're referring to as a 'first-rate army' ascribe to a philosophy that be described as an inverted pyramid. Essentially, a single soldier represents a massive investment of training, support, and supply meant to maximize the effectiveness of that single soldier. This model works very well for the modern combat paradigm which is mostly defined by asymmetrical conflicts in urban settings against enemies without that edge.

However, this paradigm is very new, borne of an age of rapid transportation, manufacture and communication and the end of the Total War philosophy. The idea of war crimes probably also helped.

For most of history the paradigm was the inverse. Wars were won by fielding the largest number of combatants and slamming your formations into each other. Everything from the Battle of Agincourt to Gettysburg to WW1 were fought this way. Supply lines were weak and regularly targeted, disease ran rampant in the ranks, professional soldiers were rare or non-existent. Hell even after the advent of repeating rifles, most militaries clung to their single-shot weapons since there were strictly more of them and they were effective for the sorts of maneuvers infantry were being used for.

The Swarm, however, can afford to still fight by fielding massive numbers and slamming into enemy formations. They don't have to worry about morale or casualties, those that die are recycled and new troops fed on their remains. A 'modern' military would be outnumbered and overrun. What Suskillion needs is every able body that can send hot death downrange of the trenches if the system does not want to end up as bug-chow.

And this is just one enemy faction. How many others out there operate with the same mindset? Maintaining a cheap and expendable group of soldiers in your army to fill in gaps and pour bullets on a problem is a sound investment in the setting.

[Ixal]

Master Han Del of the Web wrote:

I think the answer here is actually perfectly demonstrated by this AP. A lot of nations today and what you're referring to as a 'first-rate army' ascribe to a philosophy that be described as an inverted pyramid. Essentially, a single soldier represents a massive investment of training, support, and supply meant to maximize the effectiveness of that single soldier. This model works very well for the modern combat paradigm which is mostly defined by asymmetrical conflicts in urban settings against enemies without that edge.

However, this paradigm is very new, borne of an age of rapid transportation, manufacture and communication and the end of the Total War philosophy. The idea of war crimes probably also helped.

For most of history the paradigm was the inverse. Wars were won by fielding the largest number of combatants and slamming your formations into each other. Everything from the Battle of Agincourt to Gettysburg to WW1 were fought this way. Supply lines were weak and regularly targeted, disease ran rampant in the ranks, professional soldiers were rare or non-existent. Hell even after the advent of repeating rifles, most militaries clung to their single-shot weapons since there were strictly more of them and they were effective for the sorts of maneuvers infantry were being used for.

The Swarm, however, can afford to still fight by fielding massive numbers and slamming into enemy formations. They don't have to worry about morale or casualties, those that die are recycled and new troops fed on their remains. A 'modern' military would be outnumbered and overrun. What Suskillion needs is every able body that can send hot death downrange of the trenches if the system does not want to end up as bug-chow.

And this is just one enemy faction. How many others out there operate with the same mindset? Maintaining a cheap and expendable group of soldiers in your army to fill in gaps and pour bullets on a problem is a sound investment in the setting.

Thats not correct at all. Even in ancient times quality often trumped quantity. From Greek phalanxes, Roman legionaires, European knights (Longbowmen were also highly trained and expensively equipped btw.), Ottoman Jannisary to Spanish Tercios.

In fact, only the population boom in modern times allowed for quantity tactics and that was just a very short phase in time.
Starfinder too favours quality over quantity with the way things scale.

Also all armies realized the advantages of standardization by now. No incompability between equipment, no cross training required and you do not need to monitor which of your troops has what equipment to avoid having half of a unit not being able to engage an enemy as they have shirter range weapons.
With modern mass production it does not make sense to have production lines for several types if weapons (with the same role) just because some soldiers haven't "proven themselves" yet instead of having several lines for the same weapon. This is also more efficient as you can produce as many weapons as you need once while under the leveled weapon approach you end up with a lot of unused weapons people either have outleveled or are not high enough yet (Same for other equipment).

But in the end it depends on the industrial capacity and manpower reserves you have. With Suskillion basically being a single major city their industry should be relatively untouched but they lack manpower.
So it only makes sense to equip their soldiers with better gear.
Filtered Rebreather, corona laser (range) or static arc rifles (Arc property) with several red star plasma cannons mixed in (range+explosive).
A jetpack, especially when combined with a rebreather, can negate a lot of swarm creatures as they are melee only or have low range with acid weapons. But with only 20 rounds of flying you are probably better off to sit in a police cruiser, null-space transport or hover pod and rain down fire (lasers or plasma because of range) from there.

[Dragonchess Player]

Master Han Del of the Web wrote:

Dragonchess Player wrote:

R2Es are pretty obvious and only 1 cr each. A Medpatch is fairly expensive (for a 1st level character) at 50 cr for a single-use item; a Medkit, Basic is 100 cr. At least one character should have a skill rank in Medicine and a Medkit, but probably not all of them. Binoculars are 50 cr, which makes for a tough choice; by the time the character has invested in a weapon (or possibly two or three), possibly physical ammunition and/or a spare battery (or two), and armor, there usually isn't much left of the 1,000 cr. One character might want to have a Fire Extiguisher, if they can afford it.

From a narrative perspective, being on the losing end of a war that's been going on for a while, the PCs (as fresh out of basic training) aren't likely to be lavishly equipped for their first patrol.

I would suggest considering adding something like specialist equipment packages. Maybe another 200 credits of non-weapon or armor equipment meant to supplement each character's presumed role in the squad. One of the great things about item level in Starfinder is that as long as you remain within the level guidelines, it is a bit difficult to break the game no matter how much gear you have.

It just so happens that I came up with a possible "standard" gear selection for the fresh out of basic training* SDF grunt: Survival Knife (95 cr), Subzero Hail Pistol (120 cr), Tactical Plasma Bolter (280 cr)**, 2 Standard Batteries (120 cr), Second Skin (250 cr), Datapad (55 cr), Personal Comm Unit (7 cr), Consumer Backpack (3 cr), Bedroll (15 cr), Canteen (1 cr), Clothing/SDF Uniform (issued or 5 cr), Gear Maintenance Kit (5 cr), Hygiene Kit (3 cr), Mess Kit (2 cr), Sleeping Bag (10 cr), +34 cr (or +29 cr) of other equipment and items (including a Fire Extinguisher or Tool Kit, plus some R2Es). Note that a battle medic (with or without the theme) will probably replace the hail pistol, datapad, and one battery (235 cr) with a Needler Pistol (105 cr), 25 Darts (20 cr), and a Basic Medkit (100 cr); possibly adding a 4 person Mass Produced Tent (4 cr). A heavy-weapon SDF trooper will probably replace the plasma bolter (280 cr) with a Subzero Hail Cannon (275 cr); they may also (especially if a race with natural weapons) consider replacing the knife, second skin, and datapad (400 cr) with Lashunta Ringwear I (415 cr). A sniper SDF trooper will probably replace the plasma bolter, batteries, and datapad (455 cr) with a Precision Coil Rifle (390 cr) and 25 Sniper Rounds (75 cr).

Other configurations are possible, but may need more changes.

*- the PCs are explicitly a handful of bodies that just finished basic training, not an elite special forces squad (which would probably have better equipment)
**- it doesn't last as long in a firefight as an Azimuth Laser Rifle, but it's cheaper to mass-produce and "good enough" (Tactical Plasma Bolter + 2 Batteries = 15 shots at 1d10 damage for 400 cr; Azimuth Laser Rifle = 20 shots at 1d8 damage for 425 cr)

[Dragonchess Player]

Ixal wrote:

But in the end it depends on the industrial capacity and manpower reserves you have. With Suskillion basically being a single major city their industry should be relatively untouched but they lack manpower.

So it only makes sense to equip their soldiers with better gear.

The issue is "can Suskillion afford to equip everyone in the vastly expanded military with all the bells and whistles?"

You may also want to read up on WWI and WWII. The U.S. weapons (and, to be honest, average leadership/tactics/strategy) were not as good as the Germans'. The main reason the U.S. helped win those wars was that the U.S. military could replace losses faster than the German military. If your loss ratio is 2 to 1, but you can replace the losses three times as fast as your opponent, you will win the war even if you lose most of the battles (see also "Pyrrhic victory").

Suskillion seems to be in the shoes of Epirus/Germany against the Swarm...

[Master Han Del of the Web]

Ixal wrote:

Thats not correct at all. Even in ancient times quality often trumped quantity. From Greek phalanxes, Roman legionaires, European knights (Longbowmen were also highly trained and expensively equipped btw.), Ottoman Jannisary to Spanish Tercios.

In fact, only the population boom in modern times allowed for quantity tactics and that was just a very short phase in time.
Starfinder too favours quality over quantity with the way things scale.
Also all armies realized the advantages of standardization by now. No incompability between equipment, no cross training required and you do not need to monitor which of your troops has what equipment to avoid having half of a unit not being able to engage an enemy as they have shirter range weapons.
With modern mass production it does not make sense to have production lines for several types if weapons (with the same role) just because some soldiers haven't "proven themselves" yet instead of having several lines for the same weapon. This is also more efficient as you can produce as many weapons as you need once while under the leveled weapon approach you end up with a lot of unused weapons people either have outleveled or are not high enough yet (Same for other equipment).

But in the end it depends on the industrial capacity and manpower reserves you have. With Suskillion basically being a single major city their industry should be relatively untouched but they lack manpower.
So it only makes sense to equip their soldiers with better gear....

Okay, Ixal... I'm not going to pick over your gear choices or your digs at the system since you refuse to grasp the stuff that has been thrown your way about equipment levels time and again.

As for the core of your rebuttal. I was not saying that elite soldiers and tactics did not have a place in the old paradigm, just that the core philosophy behind how soldiers were fielded is inherently different to the kinds of military conflicts we often see with our current model.

The way the Hundred Years War and the Battle at Marathon were fought were vastly different from today, not just in terms of equipment and tactics but with how the generals conceptualized conflict. Knights were heavily trained, well equipped, and commanded the battlefield, but they were defeated by barely trained peasants with pikes and later muskets.

[Ixal]

Master Han Del of the Web wrote:

Okay, Ixal... I'm not going to pick over your gear choices or your digs at the system since you refuse to grasp the stuff that has been thrown your way about equipment levels time and again.

As for the core of your rebuttal. I was not saying that elite soldiers and tactics did not have a place in the old paradigm, just that the core philosophy behind how soldiers were fielded is inherently different to the kinds of military conflicts we often see with our current model.

The way the Hundred Years War and the Battle at Marathon were fought were vastly different from today, not just in terms of equipment and tactics but with how the generals conceptualized conflict. Knights were heavily trained, well equipped, and commanded the battlefield, but they were defeated by barely trained peasants with pikes and later muskets.

Wow, you really need to learn some history so you stop posting nonsense. Pikeman were not "barely trained peseants" but highly trained mercenaries. The kind of mercenaries which made up the bulk of medieval and rennaissance armies as rulers quickly realized that drafting peseants only lead to famin and added nothing to the army (unless you forced to train them every week like the English did). Same for muskets which quickly started an arms race about who had the best drilled and equipped soldiers.

Do you really think some random peseants dominated european warfare for a century?

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Ixal wrote:

But in the end it depends on the industrial capacity and manpower reserves you have. With Suskillion basically being a single major city their industry should be relatively untouched but they lack manpower.

So it only makes sense to equip their soldiers with better gear.

The issue is "can Suskillion afford to equip everyone in the vastly expanded military with all the bells and whistles?"

You may also want to read up on WWI and WWII. The U.S. weapons (and, to be honest, average leadership/tactics/strategy) were not as good as the Germans'. The main reason the U.S. helped win those wars was that the U.S. military could replace losses faster than the German military. If your loss ratio is 2 to 1, but you can replace the losses three times as fast as your opponent, you will win the war even if you lose most of the battles (see also "Pyrrhic victory").

Suskillion seems to be in the shoes of Epirus/Germany against the Swarm...

Except for the very end of the war Germanies problems were manpower, not equipment (although they did ran out of rare earths, too). So it was not an issue of US equipment being faster to produce because it was cheap (the different sizes of the economies alone lead to the US outproducing Germany), but that Germany did not have enough people to even field whatever they could produce. Also, the US air force was superior to Germanies and they used that to full effect.

If Suskillion would indeed be Germany, they would have highly effective equipment but no one to use it. But in SF there is a solution for that (if the setting was logical). Robots. Lots and lots of small flying robots with a gun. The swarm can recycle their dead? Well, so can Suskillion. If you pump out robots instead of equiping soldiers then you can cheap out and win by mass. But when you field soldiers which are a limited resource you need to spend a bit on equipment to keep them safe and effective.

As for can Suskillion afford it, we are talking about planetary governments. Even poor ones would have budgets in the billions and faced with a total war scenario against an genocidal enemy money usually is not an issue.

[Master Han Del of the Web]

Ixal wrote:

Master Han Del of the Web wrote:

Okay, Ixal... I'm not going to pick over your gear choices or your digs at the system since you refuse to grasp the stuff that has been thrown your way about equipment levels time and again.

As for the core of your rebuttal. I was not saying that elite soldiers and tactics did not have a place in the old paradigm, just that the core philosophy behind how soldiers were fielded is inherently different to the kinds of military conflicts we often see with our current model.

The way the Hundred Years War and the Battle at Marathon were fought were vastly different from today, not just in terms of equipment and tactics but with how the generals conceptualized conflict. Knights were heavily trained, well equipped, and commanded the battlefield, but they were defeated by barely trained peasants with pikes and later muskets.

Wow, you really need to learn some history so you stop posting nonsense. Pikeman were not "barely trained peseants" but highly trained mercenaries. The kind of mercenaries which made up the bulk of medieval and rennaissance armies as rulers quickly realized that drafting peseants only lead to famin and added nothing to the army (unless you forced to train them every week like the English did). Same for muskets which quickly started an arms race about who had the best drilled and equipped soldiers.

Do you really think some random peseants dominated european warfare for a century?

Alright, fine, congrats, you've derailed another thread and somehow are still failing to engage with the core of my argument. All my previous statement is really missing is a few instances of the word 'comparatively'. Those mercenaries were still cheaper to produce and maintain than the knights. The muskets were still something that could be picked up and made effective quickly which is why they replaced bows. The arms race was still very much a matter of raw production. A high quality product meant nothing unless it could be easily translated into something that could be produced in bulk. All those incremental steps you mentioned were all still about turning vast quantities of bodies into effective fighting forces. My argument stands, the concept of armed conflict was inherently different back then.

[Ixal]

Master Han Del of the Web wrote:

Alright, fine, congrats, you've derailed another thread and somehow are still failing to engage with the core of my argument. All my previous statement is really missing is a few instances of the word 'comparatively'. Those mercenaries were still cheaper to produce and maintain than the knights. The muskets were still something that could be picked up and made effective quickly which is why they replaced bows. The arms race was still very much a matter of raw production. A high quality product meant nothing unless it could be easily...

Of course the combat/war was different back then compared to now but that was because of the technology available. Even back then gathering a large mass of men and smashing them headlong into the enemy was a recipy for disaster.

And sure you had to find a balance between economy and quality (muskets versus bows), but when you fought an equal enemy quality often was the deciding factor. A good example of that is the war between Austria and Prussia which the latter won mainly because of their more modern guns which could be reloaded while lieing down.
There are not many conflicts in history someone won by cheapen out on equipment to field the highest number of men possible or where you had to earn a better weapon first (do you have any examples?)

And if you want to write something on topic, how about you post a list of basic equipment you think a soldier should get (and why exactly that equipmez, without referencing metagame concepts like wealth per level and item levels).

Ignoring weapons and armor for now I think a medic should not only get a medkit but also several MK I serums.
One might even consider combat medics not having a medkit at all in favour for more serums and leave the mundane healing to the hospitals behind the frontline.

[Noven]

I think SF has an issue with moving mass amounts to troops around because the currently published ships carry relatively small amounts to troops. To me that shows a huge weak point in resupply. I can imagine small ships being loaded to the brim with UPBs dropping them like the Berlin Airlift.

[Captain Marbles]

Thermal regulator armor upgrade. Best 150 credits one can spend on book 1.

[Noven]

My group is getting ready to run this and we all are going Soldier, just different types. I am going to be a stellifera guard soldier, power armor jockey archetype. Besides weapons and armor (with a thermal regulator upgrade) he has the following:

Hygiene Kit
Backpack, Industrial
Oxygen Candle
10x R2E

Image

[Zwordsman]

R2E?

as a random sidenote. I always liked the idea of a needler+mercy fusion for my intro biohacker.

[Noven]

Ready 2 Eat.