To Arms!


Rules Questions


My Bolt Ace 5 is happy with her Minotaur double crossbow now that she gets dex to damage. Loading is a non-action with Shadowshooting.

Efforts to repeat the trick using a hand crossbow have failed as the double crossbow requires two hands and the hand crossbow group lacks dex to damage until level 9.

I think I need three hands to fire a double crossbow and a hand crossbow in the same turn. I think I need four hands to fire two double crossbows. Open to correction. In this scenario I am not reloading these crossbows because of Shadowshooting. I'm not sure how the rules would change were I going through the full reload sequence. Without Shadowshooting it's a move action to replace each bolt.

My character sports an 8 Int, 8 Charisma and 18 Wisdom. That eliminates the obvious like Alchemist Discovery or Witch. Alter Self into a 4-armed Gargoyle might do if objections are minimal. Is there another 4+ armed humanoid that I'm overlooking?

There's probably some other class feature that would allow this polymorphic affect. One where there is no doubt that creature could fire dual double crossbows.

Dipping to War Priest, one of the only casters that does not get Alter Self, is going to make things harder. A Greater Hat of Disguise seems optimal for those with 12,000 GP lying around, but that 12,000 is competing for the purchase of the requisite +2 Weapon and miscellaneous Dex upgrades.

All I want to do is fire dual double crossbows with my Human every round. What are the ways to do it? What problems will I inevitably run into at the PFS table?


foggy1 wrote:
Alter Self into a 4-armed Gargoyle might do if objections are minimal. Is there another 4+ armed humanoid that I'm overlooking?

Gargoyles are monstrous humanoids, that is a separate type from humanoids. Alter Self won't work. You'd need Monstrous Physique.

Kasatha are four-armed humanoids, but as a GM I would limit access to this form, are kasatha are reclusive and unknown to most people on Golarion.

As for monstrous humanoids there's also Four-Armed Sahuagin Mutant.


PFS allows only monsters from the Bestiaries as forms for polymorphing.

This FAQ says "you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks." - expect GMs to apply that to two-handed ranged weapons as well.

Multi-armed PCs aren't really covered by the rules, so at the very least, expect large table variation. If I were a fellow player at a PFS table, or a GM, I would certainly groan at you bringing such a character to the table). Also, expect people making jokes about you compensating for something, because that's certainly what it looks like.

@Adjoint: Since "Both the four-armed sahuagin and the malenti use the stats presented on page 239 of the Bestiary as their foundations, with (...) alterations" the Four-Armed Mutant falls under "advanced version of a creature" and is thus not a valid polymorph form.


I'm doing a thought experiment. Trying to stretch the bounds to see how far they will go. As you point out I too would groan at such a creature sitting down at my table. Not at first because I've had a good time playing opposite an ooze. It's made me more willing to accept the absurd. Alchemists don't hesitate to take advantage of multiple arms and rarely do so without a plan. That said, as soon as the first volley was released and the boss vaporized I would be disappointed. I know this too because I played alongside two zen-archers and combat rarely lasted long enough for me to un-flat my feet. It wasn't fun and I sincerely thank you for reminding me of that.

But back to the experiment.

Had to split the post. I couldn't get the formatting to work right.


Kasathas:

Upon reaching adulthood, many kasathas leave their clans to search the world for adventure or treasure.

As a Pathfinder I'm sure I've heard of the more famous among them.

Derklord wrote:
PFS allows only monsters from the Bestiaries as forms for polymorphing.

PFS Additional Resources guide does not include the word 'only' when choosing what can be polymorphed into. Found in Advanced Race Guide and Bestiary 4 make me confident Kasathas is a valid polymorph option. Being classified as a humanoid alter self seems perfectly viable. Where are you getting "advanced version of a creature" are not a valid polymorph option?

Armor Spikes:

Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?

No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.

I believe you are reading this wrong. No mention of multiple hands was in the question so I see no option but to assume two. Wielding a Great Sword with a spiked gauntlet would clearly prohibit any standard action with the off-hand, but it wouldn't prevent me from kicking you. In this case I'm reasonably sure I can do anything I'd like with the third-hand provided it's a move action. If I can perform a move action I'm reasonably sure I can also make use of two-weapon fighting. I expect I could find some alchemist threads to back that up. Do you have any other sources?

That's all fine and dandy for a spiked gauntlet but in point of fact I don't understand why an off-hand attack with spiked armor would be prohibited. Or a Dwarven Bolder Helmet. Now I'm questioning if I would even be allowed to kick you. Doesn't make sense to me.

No PFS DM would be happy with a hasted four armed character shooting a pair of self-loading Minotaur double crossbow through multiple iterations and greater two-weapon fighting at ranged touch AC using 1 grit at 19-20x3 (or worse). Don't quote me but assuming all hit and no-crit that would allow counting my static bonuses, including dex-to-damage, something like 14 times. I think it's legal, but I won't be playing it.


foggy1 wrote:
PFS Additional Resources guide does not include the word 'only' when choosing what can be polymorphed into.

PFS works on an allowance-system - you can only use material that's explicitly allowed (apart from the CRB, which is why the page is called "additional recources"). In this case, only the Bestiaries say that their monsters are valid polymorph forms.

And yes, Kasatha is in B4, and thus a valid form. I was referring to the four-armed gargoyle and the four-armed sahuagin.

foggy1 wrote:
Where are you getting "advanced version of a creature" are not a valid polymorph option?

Basic polymorph rules. "Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature." CRB pg. 212

foggy1 wrote:
Wielding a Great Sword with a spiked gauntlet would clearly prohibit any standard action with the off-hand, but it wouldn't prevent me from kicking you.

No, that's the point of the FAQ - wielding a two-handed weapon prevents you from using any kind of "off-hand" attack, even if it is not made with an actual hand.

As a regular two-handed PC, at least - like I said, multi-armed PCs aren't really covered by the rules.

foggy1 wrote:
That's all fine and dandy for a spiked gauntlet but in point of fact I don't understand why an off-hand attack with spiked armor would be prohibited. Or a Dwarven Bolder Helmet. Now I'm questioning if I would even be allowed to kick you. Doesn't make sense to me.

And now you know why everyone hates that "methaphorical hands" thing, exactly because it doesn't really make sense. Basically, it's a pure mechanical ruling for balance reasons.


Thanks. I think I'm clear now.

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