Dragon Ancestry and Archetype


Homebrew and House Rules


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I've started work on it so far, haven't gotten everything planned out, but I need to sleep.

a few things I'm worried about, Is dragon scale armor too good, or should it not have a prerequisite?

should the ancestry feats gained from the archetype only allow you stuff from half your level ago

should I maybe have level 17 feats?

is the Draconic element system to hard to understand?

what's the easiest way to give them the dragon trait and explain that they can still be slept and paralyzed?

Breath weapon? i feel like it should either be on the archetype or a 5th level ancestry feat. If i move all the crazy activatable abilities over to the archetype I can give the "class DC" to that thing and remove it from dragon's racially.

So far I only see breath weapon and frightful presence as candidates for using a DC, any other things?

I plan on size feats to give 1 size, and then additional natural attacks and traits on those natural attacks, such as reach. then also a slowly increasing status bonus to melee damage.

where the hell do i fit in the elemental damage on jaw attacks? i'm thinking a 9th level feat with primal dragons gaining it on all natural attacks. I want more feats that behave slightly differently for the different heritages.

what should possibly go into the flavor text at the top?


You had me at the tittle.


I think i'm more or less done with my first pass, now it just needs balancing pass and maybe a grammar pass.


Phrasing tweak:

Quote:
Your dextrous form also allows you to carry items in your claws unimpeded and with all 4 of your claws

Remove "and"

I'm not sure what Energized Font actually does.

Quote:
You gain a +2 status bonus to melee damage.

Not sure this is a good idea. But I don't know what to change it to, either.

Sovereign Court

Someone already created a Dragonborn Ancestry for PF2: Dire Kobold/ Dragonborn

It was created by KyronValfor. I like the idea that it is a Dire Kobold, and the format is very nice (5E style)!


Draco18s wrote:

Phrasing tweak:

Quote:
Your dextrous form also allows you to carry items in your claws unimpeded and with all 4 of your claws

Remove "and"

I'm not sure what Energized Font actually does.

Quote:
You gain a +2 status bonus to melee damage.
Not sure this is a good idea. But I don't know what to change it to, either.

1. I changed the formatting to make it cleared what the form actually does. is it easier to understand now? Eastern dragons are often depicted wielding objects in all 4 claws.

2. Energized font is word for word the same as the gnome ancestry under the same name, except the prerequisite is instead changed to dragon from gnome and no heritage gives a feat.

3. I made it a status bonus so it doesn't stack with abilities that change your form or increase your size, such as enlarge. i only found 2 spells that arguably should stack with your size increase, but I'd rather not have it stack with enlarge.

Samurai wrote:

Someone already created a Dragonborn Ancestry for PF2: Dire Kobold/ Dragonborn

It was created by KyronValfor. I like the idea that it is a Dire Kobold, and the format is very nice (5E style)!

if it wasn't clear, this is not a dragonborn ancestry but a true dragon ancestry. While dragons are quadrupeds they can manipulate things with their fore claws.

Thank you both for your comments.

Onwards, I'm considering removing chromatic and Metallic and instead replacing them with esoteric dragons, like dream or astral dragons, but i think their abilities are usually too far afield from other dragons to compete well. chromatic and metallic are just so similar from all perspectives except alignment.


Quote:
3. I made it a status bonus so it doesn't stack with abilities that change your form or increase your size, such as enlarge. i only found 2 spells that arguably should stack with your size increase, but I'd rather not have it stack with enlarge.

Ah, gotcha. No that makes sense. I was worried you were creating a new bonus type and it would stack.

Quote:
Energized font is word for word the same as the gnome ancestry under the same name, except the prerequisite is instead changed to dragon from gnome and no heritage gives a feat.

In which case I'll complain about the gnome. I still have no idea what the feat actually does. If its just an extra focus point that's fine, I just thought that stuff that gave you a focus point also gave you something you could do with it (even if you already had a focus power).


Draco18s wrote:


Quote:
Energized font is word for word the same as the gnome ancestry under the same name, except the prerequisite is instead changed to dragon from gnome and no heritage gives a feat.
In which case I'll complain about the gnome. I still have no idea what the feat actually does. If its just an extra focus point that's fine, I just thought that stuff that gave you a focus point also gave you something you could do with it (even if you already had a focus power).

it has a prerequisite that you already have a focus pool. it gives you the ability to spend 1action to regain 1 focus point immediately instead of waiting 10 minutes, however it can only be done once per day.

basically, you could be an imperial dragon with ki abilities tuned to divine magic. this lets you use 2 action to ki blast, and then 1 to regain the focus point you just used.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

1. Speed. Why did you decide to go with a 30ft speed? Seems like it would be fairer to go with the standard 25ft for other races besides elf.

2. Dragon Trait. While I was looking through other monsters with the Dragon tag on AoN, some said they were immune to "Unconscious" rather than "Paralyze", do you know what that's about?

In any case, I think it might be best to standardize this kind of nerfing. Maybe new traits like "Susceptible: Sleep" which overwrite the Dragon immunities? Would be useful in custom monster design anyway.

3. Draconic Form. I see this may be why you went with the 30ft base speed. I really like that it's a significant penalty for trying to do non-dragon fighting styles, however I do think it would be more consistent with the rest of the rules to do a flat -10 speed penalty. If you switch to 25ft base speed, you wind up at 15ft anyway. Most other sources of speed penalties and boosts are flat, not %, right?

I like that it's somewhat balanced. It's hard for me to point at the bite and fall reaction and say they're OP when there's that hefty move speed penalty for wielding non-bites.

4. Dragon Heritages. I almost feel that bringing these down to specific dragon types and reducing the options to chromatic/metallic would be better. However, I don't see anything wrong with your approach.

5. "As a dwarf" was left in the ancestry feat description.

6. Ancestral Longevity. Interestingly, I don't think any major dragons are still small by the time they reach 100 years old as per 1E age categories. This might be better to reskin as Genetic Memory. Since dragons (at least in prior editions) inherit some measure of knowledge from their parents.

7. Draconic Senses. Seems to be pretty good.

8. Draconic Defense. Immunity to an energy type at level 1... I'm finding this a tough balance point. Maybe it could further increase your weakness to the opposing element? The bonus AC being an item bonus is means it delays the need for +1 explorer's clothing for several levels, which might be a decent enough effect.

9. Dragon Magic. Good and in line with others.

10. Dragon Lore. Good and in line with others.

11. Medium Build. Level 1, 60 ft flight plus more natural attack options? This should probably be 5th at the earliest, right? Also, tying flight into size increase feels wrong somehow.

12. Dragon Scale Armor. Sweet flavor, but needs something to clarify that it doesn't count as unarmored, otherwise monk mountain stance would stack with it.

13. Humanoid Shape. Is this a Focus Spell or an at-will innate? I think the utility of this can't be underestimated, so limiting it in some way might be appropriate.

14. Energized Font. This is a really neat idea.

15. Dragon Magic Adept. Seems good except for the automatic heightening to 2nd level. Is that a typical effect? I'd prefer if this followed the multiclassing casting approach, just with further delayed progression.

16. Large build. It seems pretty decent, but I still question if flight and flight speed should be so strongly tied to size. I'm wondering if we need the status bonus to damage.

17. Huge Build. Same as Large Build.

18. Natural Weapon Expertise. Seems like a good feat.


Bandw2 wrote:
it has a prerequisite that you already have a focus pool. it gives you the ability to spend 1action to regain 1 focus point immediately instead of waiting 10 minutes, however it can only be done once per day.

Oh geeze, I read that like six times and didn't get that out of it. Yeesh.


WatersLethe wrote:

1. Speed. Why did you decide to go with a 30ft speed? Seems like it would be fairer to go with the standard 25ft for other races besides elf.

2. Dragon Trait. While I was looking through other monsters with the Dragon tag on AoN, some said they were immune to "Unconscious" rather than "Paralyze", do you know what that's about?

In any case, I think it might be best to standardize this kind of nerfing. Maybe new traits like "Susceptible: Sleep" which overwrite the Dragon immunities? Would be useful in custom monster design anyway.

3. Draconic Form. I see this may be why you went with the 30ft base speed. I really like that it's a significant penalty for trying to do non-dragon fighting styles, however I do think it would be more consistent with the rest of the rules to do a flat -10 speed penalty. If you switch to 25ft base speed, you wind up at 15ft anyway. Most other sources of speed penalties and boosts are flat, not %, right?

I like that it's somewhat balanced. It's hard for me to point at the bite and fall reaction and say they're OP when there's that hefty move speed penalty for wielding non-bites.

4. Dragon Heritages. I almost feel that bringing these down to specific dragon types and reducing the options to chromatic/metallic would be better. However, I don't see anything wrong with your approach.

5. "As a dwarf" was left in the ancestry feat description.

6. Ancestral Longevity. Interestingly, I don't think any major dragons are still small by the time they reach 100 years old as per 1E age categories. This might be better to reskin as Genetic Memory. Since dragons (at least in prior editions) inherit some measure of knowledge from their parents.

7. Draconic Senses. Seems to be pretty good.

8. Draconic Defense. Immunity to an energy type at level 1... I'm finding this a tough balance point. Maybe it could further increase your weakness to the opposing element? The bonus AC being an item bonus is means it delays the need for +1 explorer's clothing for several levels, which might...

1. yeah you see why i went with 30, I DID have it as 25 for a bit, even with a -10, but as you get bigger the penalty would become more and more negligible.

2. they're immune to sleep and paralyzed however it isn't clear if this is given by the trait

Quote:
Dragons are reptilian creatures, often winged or with the power of flight. Most are able to use a breath weapon and are immune to sleep and the paralyzed condition.

so i left the bit up above more as to get people to hopefully clarify.

3. yeah, i mostly just want it to still hurt a higher levels since you can get normal movement speed of a dragon at higher levels. the reason it isn't 25 halved, is 10 feet is sooooooo much of a penalty.

4. i understand why most people would have wanted the 10 or so heritages for each dragon, but even then they're all so different it's impossible to really outline all their differences in a simple heritage, and i don't want feats to have 10 different ways of interacting, so i decided to leave it up to the player to try to make a red dragon with the tools available, rather than force them to fit a specific chromatic mold.

5. oh! thank you

6. I'm kind of throwing age categories out the window, the idea is that some kinds of dragons simply don't grow as big as a Red dragon, etc.

8. yeah, the idea is more along the lines of "all dragons are immune to their element" and i don't want to make a feat chain just to get immunity, and I also don't want to throw a ton of basic dragon things at level 5. their weaknesses are inline with the true dragons that have weaknesses, so it'd be weird if you became weaker than a normal true dragon. I decided to keep defensive stuff on the ancestry feats. I really don't think level 5 is a much better spot, as i don't want to push deep back into the levels. I'll think over this more

11. I actually think i agree, a 30 feet fly speed would be better. All of this is tied to one feat because i really don't want to force a player to frankenstein a dragon together over multiple feats. small->medium does nothing, it's more of just a way to use your first level feat to be a bigger badder dragon than a whelp.

12. OH WOW, I thought it was an item bonus, its a good thing you mentioned this, I doubt i'd ever have checked.

13. Yeah, i actually pulled it back a bit from what it was before

Quote:
Change Shape [one-action] (arcane, concentrate, polymorph, transmutation); The dragon takes on the appearance of any Small or Medium humanoid. This doesn’t change its Speed or attack and damage modifiers with its Strikes, but might change the damage type its Strikes deal (typically to bludgeoning).

14. also just a gnome feat. :P

15. ALSO just a gnome feat, except they get 2 specific spells of first and 2nd level, instead I let you choose 1. I decided to have it heighten to 2nd level so people might still choose 1st level spells. otherwise no it's not used elsewhere, I might remove it for simplicity honestly.

16. the damage dice for dragon attacks doesn't seem to get larger as they get larger, so the status bonus was to mimic the enlarge spell. It would be a bit weird if you didn't get better at stomping on people as you got bigger, but the tiny bonus isn't amazing either. as earlier, I don't really want to separate the movement types from size just because there are a lot of dragon abilities to mimic and I don't want to spread them out, i especially don't want a feat that just gives natural weapons or flight speed, they should always have a bit more than a singular effect.

18. feats of it's kind are normally 5th level but i had too many 5th level feats. :P


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Now to look over the Archetype

A. Dragon Paragon Dedication. Boom. Immunity to sleep and paralysis. Immunities are so hard to balance, I don't know what to recommend. Could we make them immune to effects from lower level enemies only, then let it automatically upgrade to full immunity at X level?

B. Basic Dragon Training. This is the good stuff. If we've balanced the ancestry feats reasonably enough, this is guaranteed to be balanced.

C. Draconic Reaction. Both Champions and Barbarians can gain an attack of opportunity at level 6. I feel that this should align with them or we'll have a mutiny.

D. Dragon Movement. Maybe this is a better place to put flight? I know you didn't want to chop up basic dragon stuff too much, but I'm really concerned about level 1 flight.

E. Advanced Dragon Training. Yup yup good stuff.

F. Breath Weapon. I was wondering where this got placed. I like it. The flat check simulating the recharge time is great.

G. Elemental Assault. I'm wondering about the balance around the damage benefiting from Striking runes. My instinct is that it should rather improve automatically at X level, but not as high as striking.

H. Draconic Frenzy. This is where I'm a bit out of my depth. I don't know precisely the math behind damage and attacks, but this seems okay. You can't use your strong bite+elemental damage for you -5 attack in exchange for being able to make a claw at -10 and still move.

I. Long Body. Just to mimic the reach of large dragons, right? I'm okay with this. It's nice that it's providing reach to known weapons, so we don't get unexpected interactions.

J. Frightful Presence. Okay, this seems too strong. I wonder if we could tweak it down. Maybe make it a toggle but uses a Focus point? Maybe let it only affect lower level creatures?

K. Elemental Aura. Another aura. It's hard to balance these because against enemies, they have it for one combat. As allies, they have it every combat all day. I'd like to find ways to comfortably nerf these.

L. Gargantuan Build. This is a good spot for this. I would almost want to have Huge in the archetype as well.

M. Elemental Devastation. 20th level feat, seems okay to me.


WatersLethe wrote:

Now to look over the Archetype

A. Dragon Paragon Dedication. Boom. Immunity to sleep and paralysis. Immunities are so hard to balance, I don't know what to recommend. Could we make them immune to effects from lower level enemies only, then let it automatically upgrade to full immunity at X level?

B. Basic Dragon Training. This is the good stuff. If we've balanced the ancestry feats reasonably enough, this is guaranteed to be balanced.

C. Draconic Reaction. Both Champions and Barbarians can gain an attack of opportunity at level 6. I feel that this should align with them or we'll have a mutiny.

D. Dragon Movement. Maybe this is a better place to put flight? I know you didn't want to chop up basic dragon stuff too much, but I'm really concerned about level 1 flight.

E. Advanced Dragon Training. Yup yup good stuff.

F. Breath Weapon. I was wondering where this got placed. I like it. The flat check simulating the recharge time is great.

G. Elemental Assault. I'm wondering about the balance around the damage benefiting from Striking runes. My instinct is that it should rather improve automatically at X level, but not as high as striking.

H. Draconic Frenzy. This is where I'm a bit out of my depth. I don't know precisely the math behind damage and attacks, but this seems okay. You can't use your strong bite+elemental damage for you -5 attack in exchange for being able to make a claw at -10 and still move.

I. Long Body. Just to mimic the reach of large dragons, right? I'm okay with this. It's nice that it's providing reach to known weapons, so we don't get unexpected interactions.

J. Frightful Presence. Okay, this seems too strong. I wonder if we could tweak it down. Maybe make it a toggle but uses a Focus point? Maybe let it only affect lower level creatures?

K. Elemental Aura. Another aura. It's hard to balance these because against enemies, they have it for one combat. As allies, they have it every combat all day. I'd like to find ways to comfortably nerf these.

L. Gargantuan...

A. yeah, I'm thinking of, instead, improve your saves by 1 step against paralyze and sleep effects. It's good but not quite as good as immunity.

C. that's a good point

F-J-K. I'm thinking of turning them into focus spells... currently they're all just things a dragon eventually gets. even young dragons have frightful presence, If I do this I'll probably have them increase your DC proficiency as well. I'm unsure, as breath weapon feels like it 'should' be spammable but really from class balance it shouldn't. I'ma hold off on doing this til i get my head around how the book assigns focus points.

G. I do it this way since all the dragons in the bestiary have the same number of damage dice on their attacks as they do on their extra elemental damage. 2d8 damage jaw? 2d6 acid damage. 3d8? 3d6. etc.


sigh, i really need to bold and color code traits don't i? ...

i changed to focus spells... is elemental devastation too much?

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Dragon Ancestry and Archetype All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.