FLY, MY PET! BRING ME THEIR EYES!!


Advice


Hey, so I know that you generally don't want to put your familiar directly in harm's way, but how much damage do familiars do with melee attacks? The familiar entry mentions that they CAN attack, but I don't see anything about their natural attacks or whatever.


Sporelock wrote:
Hey, so I know that you generally don't want to put your familiar directly in harm's way, but how much damage do familiars do with melee attacks? The familiar entry mentions that they CAN attack, but I don't see anything about their natural attacks or whatever.

The only viable way I can see to deal any damage with a familiar in melee combat is to pick up your familiar and use it as an improvised weapon. As far as I can tell, the melee attack is only for things like grapple checks as the familiar has no way to deal any damage.

Note a familiar with Manual Dexterity could technically wield a weapon but with no str or stats for tiny weapon this is all in houserule territory.


graystone wrote:
Sporelock wrote:
Hey, so I know that you generally don't want to put your familiar directly in harm's way, but how much damage do familiars do with melee attacks? The familiar entry mentions that they CAN attack, but I don't see anything about their natural attacks or whatever.
The only viable way I can see to deal any damage with a familiar in melee combat is to pick up your familiar and use it as an improvised weapon.

Gives new meaning to the phrase "bird club"...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Familiar attacks are currently undefined.

I suspect that even if one day they are defined, a familiar's combat ability will be very, very limited. Just look at animal companions.


I just find it odd that they would bother mentioning that they can attack and then never mention damage or anything else. It's not a big deal, but I guess I'll just add this to the long list of mistakes and puzzling bits in the 2e Rulebook.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

First, that's an amazing thread title. Second, I asked this myself a while ago.

Sadly, it doesn't seem familiars can combat in P2E. Wizards are finally safe from the feral street cat gangs. As are the mice swarms that will, inevitably, be the ones to eat everyone's eyes.


Ravingdork wrote:

First, that's an amazing thread title. Second, I asked this myself a while ago.

Sadly, it doesn't seem familiars can combat in P2E. Wizards are finally safe from the feral street cat gangs. As are the mice swarms that will, inevitably, be the ones to eat everyone's eyes.

Thanks! It's from an episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia where a bird eats a lawyer's eye.

And that's a bummer, man. One of my players wants an octopus familiar and I was looking forward to him tossing it into people's surprised faces.


Sporelock wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

First, that's an amazing thread title. Second, I asked this myself a while ago.

Sadly, it doesn't seem familiars can combat in P2E. Wizards are finally safe from the feral street cat gangs. As are the mice swarms that will, inevitably, be the ones to eat everyone's eyes.

Thanks! It's from an episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia where a bird eats a lawyer's eye.

The scene.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

You could also give your familiar one of these: Bestial Mutagen.

But to graystone's point...stats? proficiency?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sporelock wrote:
And that's a bummer, man. One of my players wants an octopus familiar and I was looking forward to him tossing it into people's surprised faces.

I'm fairly certain your player's PC could still do that. XD


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Ravingdork wrote:
Sporelock wrote:
And that's a bummer, man. One of my players wants an octopus familiar and I was looking forward to him tossing it into people's surprised faces.
I'm fairly certain your player's PC could still do that. XD

It can do a lot of damage if you strap some bombs to it first...


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Player: So, I throw my octopus familiar into Bad Bob's face.
DM: Er... Alright, I think this will count as an improvised weapon. Make a ranged attack roll at -2.
Player (after rolling dice): I hit! What happens?
DM: The octopus grabs Bad Bob's face and he's... erm... distracted. Count him as being flat-footed until he can get it off. Let's see... on his turn, he tries to break the grapple. He makes an escape attempt with an unarmed attack against... your athletics DC.
DM (rolls dice): Oh, he failed his escape attempt! It's just one action, so he can try again at -4, and again at -8... Oh, two more failures! Your familiar is really keeping him occupied.

Working within the rules for throwing things, grapples and escaping from grapples, I think this works! The only doubt I have is whether, when the octopus hits, it has to make a grapple attempt. If so, it could be the master's Athletics check against the target's Fort DC.


Wheldrake wrote:

Player: So, I throw my octopus familiar into Bad Bob's face.

DM: Er... Alright, I think this will count as an improvised weapon. Make a ranged attack roll at -2.
Player (after rolling dice): I hit! What happens?
DM: The octopus grabs Bad Bob's face and he's... erm... distracted. Count him as being flat-footed until he can get it off. Let's see... on his turn, he tries to break the grapple. He makes an escape attempt with an unarmed attack against... your athletics DC.
DM (rolls dice): Oh, he failed his escape attempt! It's just one action, so he can try again at -4, and again at -8... Oh, two more failures! Your familiar is really keeping him occupied.

Working within the rules for throwing things, grapples and escaping from grapples, I think this works! The only doubt I have is whether, when the octopus hits, it has to make a grapple attempt. If so, it could be the master's Athletics check against the target's Fort DC.

Escape is not "agile" so it should be -5/-10

Also, please refer to "Cthulhu toss" with something more appropriate and majestic than simply "improvised attack"

Tbf, little chtulhu would still need to at least succeed at a grapple/athletics check, but since he's our Lord and saviour, I expect nothing less than Nat 20s.


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Wheldrake wrote:
your athletics DC

That's be your level ONLY, not your athletics.

"Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don’t have one, unless otherwise specified). If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier. It doesn’t have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses."


Hm. I wonder if the unarmed section of the book's use of "characters" count anything and everything in the book?
I sort of assume it is meant to cover everything or some creatures would inherently not be trained in their own attacks..?
untrained attacks

If familiar's count as "characters" it would mean they were trained in unarmed attacks. So if you fed them a bestial mutagen for a natural attack they wouold be trained in it.

No clue if that applies to familiars.. probably not.

Otherwise.. I think the only attack you can do with a familar is Energy Body Mutagen at lv 11+

You could also have them open and drop inhaled poisons. or apply ingested Maybe contact poison? Because somewhere it state Or possibly use mage hand via a wayfinder? to apply a contact poison.

in theory contact poison is only a touch. Which may or may not be an attack. Since touch attacks aren't exactly a thing now but I remember something somewhere implying touch was automatic. I know there are several spells that are touch that dont' require an attack, just a DC check-which is like poison.
Slow onset.
--
THough that does bring up the question. (does familiars have ability scores? if so..) Are there spells that granted profiency in XYZ? Like in P1 they had a few that granted weapons and such.
Could they use a wands to get themselves something? Could you give them a wayfinder+aeon stone to give them an ability?

If they can use wand/staff/scroll, you could give them a touch spell that works off save DC and not spell touch.

I don't know a ton about magic. I just know a few cantrips.. Most of my knowledge is related to alchemical items.


Sporelock wrote:
I just find it odd that they would bother mentioning that they can attack and then never mention damage or anything else. It's not a big deal, but I guess I'll just add this to the long list of mistakes and puzzling bits in the 2e Rulebook.

Actually there is the familiar ability Spell Delivery, which allows the familiar to deliver touch spells on your behalf. It seems (contrary to my first reading of it) that the familiar would need to make an attack roll to deliver offensive touch spells with this ability.


Zwordsman wrote:
THough that does bring up the question. (does familiars have ability scores? if so..)

No, it has no stats.

"It doesn’t have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses."

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