So my group is running through the plague Stone adventure , and we seem to be running into a lot of issues with balance. Curious if anyone else is having the same issues, or if we just need to "get gud".
As an example, without spoilers. At level two our two party melee characters both have an AC of 19. We just stopped a session in the middle of a fight where we were fighting a creature with plus 15 to hit. As a result, it will Crit us when rolling a 14 or better, and only misses if it rolls a 3 or less.
Trying to debuff up the creature it's saving throws were such that it only failed on a 1 or a 2. Meanwhile its offensive ability had a DC of 21. Which is hard to beat at level two for most of our party.
We are getting crit into the ground. This is not the first scenario in this adventure we've had this problem. A similar event happened at first level where things were having + 12 to hit us.
It just seems like the monsters may need to be rebalanced a little. Our group is considered giving some of these fights the weak template.
Thoughts?
What level is that monster out of interest? It would be good to know what the "really think hard before you throw this at your players" point is. The book says level +4 is 50/50 chance of TPK 4 man team. So I'm guessing this was level 5 or 6, but it would be good to know :)
Was this a solo fight as well?
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+15 to hit and DC 21 sounds like it might be the Blood Ooze, a level 4 creature.
The blood ooze is a notable creature in that it is in some ways quite a lot stronger than other level 4 creatures, with high attack, HP, and Fortitude saves, but also has some significant weaknesses - for one thing, it has AC 12 and +6 Reflex and Will saves, and so is incredibly easy to attack. It is immune to critical hits, so you can't just crit it to death with attacks, but is not immune to critical failures, so spellcasters can potentially have a field day with it.
The second, and probably more significant weakness, is that it has a movement speed of only 10 feet. It is ridiculously easy to outrun, and even easier to just keep clear of its AoE attack (since that attack costs 2 actions, and so it can't chase you very far and still use it). If the party has ranged options and you aren't in a space where you can't back away from it you essentially win by default, and even in melee you can back up to force the ooze to use several of its actions chasing you in order to attack.
In a confined space, the ooze is incredibly dangerous, but easily handled if you have control of the situation - it doesn't have Attack of Opportunity or anything, so the only way it has to force you to remain engaged is to grapple you (which, to be fair, it is quite good at).
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The monster is solo and level 4 (based on going through the adventure looking for things). That's more than enough to give level 2 PCs real trouble. They'll generally win, but a PC or two going down vs. Level +2 or Level +3 foes should be an expected outcome.
Spoilers follow.
It's an ooze and I think oozes are deceptively difficult in PF2 because you need to fight them differently than everything else. Their AC is so low that penalties to attack almost don't matter, making whaling away with full attacks a seemingly good strategy from a pure damage perspective...but actually, you should just kite them. Hit and run tactics utterly wreck something with low movement and no attack Reaction.
The room the encounter occurs in is pretty big and this is very doable if done carefully. It'll probably still get attacks, but getting two attacks for each PC to its one will wear it down fairly well.
EDIT: Pretty much ninja'd. Ah, well.
A level+2 creature critting on a 4 is brutal.
Barbghnests, caligni have +13 and that seems standard.
Looks like monsters will be critting a lot! Although these are meant t be “boss” monsters.
Orc brutes (Level-2) have +7.
The thing is you face the ooze with another level 4 creature… so it's 160 XP encounter if you don't run away to split the fight up.
A level+2 creature critting on a 4 is brutal.
Barbghnests, caligni have +13 and that seems standard.
Looks like monsters will be critting a lot! Although these are meant t be “boss” monsters.
Orc brutes (Level-2) have +7.
It's critting on 14, it's just hitting on a 4.
But yeah, boss monsters are actually quite the challenge if you go without tactics.
Ha! Right. Still pretty bloody dangerous! And yeah. Looking forward to bosses that are actually Challenging :)
The thing is you face the ooze with another level 4 creature… so it's 160 XP encounter if you don't run away to split the fight up.
Thats certainly an extreme fight. Running and splitting would be a good choice. Fortunately oozes are mindless (or if you are unwilling to accept that then really, really stupid)so it should be possible (just depends on how well you can manipulate the other enemy).
I haven't run it yet, starting tomorrow, but from my read throughs and comparing to the PFS2 scenarios, it definitely seems fair. All of PFS2 scenarios at least have been punishing if you don't adapt your tactics to the situation. Some are particularly dangerous if you don't recall knowledge early when facing an unknown entity. Age of Ashes has been less punishing so far.
This is definitely an opponent that the party should concentrate on kiting and using hit and run tactics with the melees to avoid being bunched up. Ideally using a weak attack to trigger the clot ability before your heavy hitters engage.
Grease, or other non-Fort area control effects, are punishing to it.