An apology...


Pathfinder Society

1/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So I had a very hard time during the PF2 Playtest 'getting into' the game. In part because of the nature of the beast that a playtest is, and in part because there were very few venues to play that I could get to/have time to enjoy.

The hope was that was the only concern when I went to go create my first PF2 character 'for realsies' using one of my GM credits from GenCon.

...and I lost pretty much all interest or desire to design the character.

It's taken about a month or so to try and unpack some of the concerns and why they are concerns.

1. Sanctioning of new product for PFS is still using the PFS1 model. While it is the safe option, and the time-proven one, it limits availability as well as what I am willing to purchase.

2. There is a dearth of new playable product for PF2. As a result, there is a reluctance to start *any* sort of character because the play options will be exceptionally limited for at least two or three years. No, do not tell me to 'just GM it'. I did that at GenCon and felt miserable and horrible at the bad play experience I provided my tables. I'm going to need a year or two of play experience at least to feel comfortable enough with the rules to run PF2 again.

3. Tengu/kobold ancestries are allegedly due out in the Advanced Players Guide (July 2020). If the above concern in 1. about sanctioning follows suit, it will be at least a year and a half before I will have an ancestry I will be eager to play. Possibly even close to two years since the launch of PF2.

That is IF they are of Common/Always Available status, and not time-gated behind 'play time'. I've been trying, the CORE races just *aren't* doing it for me, and I don't want to lose 'play time' on a limited commodity of scenarios on a character I may ultimately want to discard.

4. The worst part about this is a double-edged sword. I want to see PF2 prosper (at least enough to get to tengu and kobolds) but due to not feeling confident on system mastery and not wanting to waste play opportunities, I find myself not playing and/or GMing. If there are others who are likewise in the same boat, that has a ripple effect in a given community.

With all the above being said, my apologies for not being more supportive of PF2.

I will continue to work on GMing for SFS and PFS1 as my time and work schedule permit, but I cannot commit to the new system at this time.

Am I missing crucial information or thoughts here to help grow and learn? Please let me and any others who may feel they are in the same boat know.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

From one Tengu to another, I'm in the same boat. And we're not known for our swimming skills.

I'm fully vested in Starfinder. I do question whether or not I would have jumped into Starfinder had I known there was going to be a PF2, but when the announcement came I wasn't going to dump all the time and money I'd already invested into a new system just to do it all over again.

And I like Starfinder. But maybe what I'm doing can work for you:

Build one PFS2 character, and play them solely through Play-by-Post. In my mind, a few years of doing that will give me the opportunity to observe how this new edition is doing and learn how to do it well. I bought the Core Rulebook, and that's all I plan to buy until a few years of material has come out.

Plus, you'll be involved from the beginning of the new Campaign and you won't feel like you need to "catch up" on the storyline if you jump in years down the road.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

8 people marked this as a favorite.

No need to apologize. You did nothing wrong. You are not obligated to play, GM, or even support Pathfinder 2E. Not all game systems are for everyone. There are people who dislike (or at least are not excited about) Starfinder, Pathfinder 1E, Shadowrun, D&D 5E, etc. so they don't play them. Pathfinder 2E cannot be all things to all people. If you are not interested in playing, then don't. Life is too short to waste limited entertainment time with something that isn't entertaining. You like Starfinder and Pathfinder 1E, so play that and enjoy yourself.

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

4/5

With the limited amount of material right now, I'm getting back to more "classic" fantasy with my characters. I've played three scenarios with an elf and Monday I'll either play another elf or a dwarf.

Grand Lodge 4/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.

There is just no way that Paizo could have released 10 years worth of PF1 content translated to PF2 so quickly. It would have deluged the market beyond the capacity of almost everyone to purchase the materials. It would also have been horrible business marketing.

Another factor to consider is the ridiculous bloat that PF1 had by 2016. It was reaching the point of overwhelming new players so that they chose to play a game with far less content. It is my opinion that we needed a much leaner edition and we got that.

No, we didn't all get what we wanted. That was never going to happen. But a wonderful thing has happened and that's new players purchasing the books and playing the game. I just ran another live event Saturday and out of 25 individual players 13 were new to Pathfinder, 3 were players who had burned out of PF1 for the last few years, and the rest were players who had been playing pretty consistently for the last year or two. My next live event at my other location already has half of the sign ups taken by new players. That isn't even counting the ones who just moved over from 5e and started their own event.

It's new. It's different. It isn't bloated to death. It has a lot of options with the content that is available. In six months we'll have a good selection of PFS sanctioned content which to me is the main roadblock at this point.

However, play what you want to play. That's the beauty of it all. You can do whatever you want when it comes to playing games. There are plenty of homebrew games going on where they've put in the races and classes they want and gone from there. Can't do it for PFS, but as time passes we'll have a lot of that stuff anyway.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Online—PbP aka Hmm

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Wei Ji, I am working on putting together my first adventure -- a third party (or self-published) PF2 murder mystery involving tengu. (I figure that I'll include my own 3PP idea of a tengu ancestry in the back until the real version can come out from Paizo. When I get this thing closer to done, I'd be honored if you playtested it for me.)

Why a murder mystery that involves tengu? Because I feel nostalgic for the Murder of Crows group that we had, and I thought it would be fun. I'm fortunate enough that my favorite race is in the core rulebook. Without your favorite race in the mix, I can understand that PF2 seems incomplete to you right now.

See you in Starfinder, and then again in PF2 after July 2020!

Hmm

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

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While I may get disappointed that any new edition of an RPG is going to limit my options compared to the previous version, I would rather have that than an initial glut of material that dooms the product to a new revision in only a few years.

2/5

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Your desire to be loyal to and support Paizo & the OPF is admirable, but I'm going to very gently suggest that perhaps you're making this more complicated than it needs to be.

I think that all you need to do right now is to keep doing what is most comfortable and interesting for you. At this point in time, that just happens to be playing and GMing (thank you for GMing) Starfinder and PFS 1. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that! Trying to force yourself into PFS 2 right now when you're not 100% feeling it yet will just make you unhappy in the long run. So give it some time for more content to be sanctioned and enjoy the other campaigns in the meantime. PFS 2 will be there when you're ready for it :)

If you'd like to support the new campaign without doing any playing/GMing/purchasing yourself, you can still suggest that other interested parties give it a try! Direct them to whoever you know that's super pumped about it and is in a position to answer questions about how everything works. Every little bit helps, right? :)

Grand Lodge 2/5

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I'm with you in spirit, Wei Ji. I too will likely be waiting for more content before jumping fully into PF2.

My primary issue is probably unique to me but maybe not. My unusual lifestyle of intentional global homelessness and traveling 365 days a year, means I have to limit myself to public Society events. I simply can't play at "Hilary's PF2 homebrew campaign every Tuesday night at the FLGS," for example. When SFS initially launched with its limited scenario releases, I found myself not being able to play at public events because I'd already played the handful of scenarios at other venues. Local VOs know what they've already run and can manage scheduling and sequencing for local players, but I need a larger pool of playable material before I can easily slip into a game in some random city in some random state or country.

So although I had a couple characters, I waited a year or so before really getting into SF, having let the Society scenario releases build up to allow more options for me. The other thing that did, of course, was allow for more additional content to be released and sanctioned.

But, I have to admit, I might take Nefreet's suggestion above and build one PF2 character for PBP just to dip my toes in the water.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I first encountered PFS at the beginning of Season 4, and found that playing was incredibly easy. Over 100 scenarios had already been released, in addition to modules and APs.

By contrast, playing SFS from the ground up means I'm constantly waiting for new content to be released.

So if I do end up enjoying PF2, I can also look forward to lots of available play when I eventually settle in to the campaign full time.

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

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We really don't owe paizo anything.

I am definitely in the same boat as Nefreet. I was initially pretty skeptical of Starfinder but once I had the same experience with the playtest you had I gave Starfinder a second look and have fully committed to it.

But if I hadn't done that and I didn't enjoy PF2 (as I don't), I would see no shame in walking away from a hobby I no longer enjoyed. That's life.

Lantern Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Illinois—Chicago (Suburbs) aka michaelane

3 people marked this as a favorite.

First, I have to agree with everyone else. No need to feel bad. Do what works for you and above all, have fun! If you're not feeling PF2 right now, take a break, GM or play more PF1 and SFS or another game altogether.

That said, here's what's been fun for me in the transition to creating new characters for PF2.

In the latter stages of PF1, I was creating more characters inspired by mechanics or options that I'd unlocked as a GM than characters inspired by story.

PF2 has has given me at chance to get back to my early days of PF1 when many of my characters were inspired by Golarion lore as I learned about the setting. This time, I've been having fun reliving the story of the 10 years of PFS1 lore that we all have to work with!

I'm mostly GMing right now, but creating my new characters has given me a chance to reminisce about some of my favorite or most memorable PFS1 scenarios and to help catch up on what has happened in some regions of the Inner Sea during the events of the last few years as documented in the LOWG.

Very Minor Spoilers:

There's The Shiz, a goblin champion of Desna whose mother named him after my cleric of Shizuru she met during the events of PFS1 04-01.

There is Havoc, an elven cleric of Nethys, one of the Uprooters, saved by my paladin of Andoletta in PFS1 05-05.

Or Dogma, a half-orc champion of Sarenrae who ran into practically the entire Pathfinder Society including one of my favorite PFS1 characters in Gallowgarden during 10-98.

Like some others, I have also created characters who remind me of some of my favorite characters from PFS1. Rather than try to recreate them entirely (which definitely won't work if you're longing for a tengu or kobold), I've taken one fun thing about them and built a new concept around it. So, I have Mockingdell Mac, a human bard and master of disguise which was one of my favorite antics for Boneyard Pyke, a PF1 favorite in a PbP campaign and later recreated for PFS (but really can't be made in PF2 yet). Mac has a PFS1-inspired story too since he met my grippli slayer in the town of Heldren during the first book of Reign of Winter.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I am hoping that the Tengu becomes a sanctioned Ancestry as it has been for most of the PF1 organized play run. Having it as one of the basic races has been great for a lot of players and sparks a lot of imagination for the casual player, perhaps giving them a positive experience to expand on for the future.

Dark Archive 5/5

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hillis Mallory III wrote:
I am hoping that the Tengu becomes a sanctioned Ancestry as it has been for most of the PF1 organized play run. Having it as one of the basic races has been great for a lot of players and sparks a lot of imagination for the casual player, perhaps giving them a positive experience to expand on for the future.

Tengu was a better choice than goblin.

1/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.

At least tengu has a release date.

Who knows how long I'll have to wait for kitsune, despite it being the most popular non-core race at the lodges I play.

2/5

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"Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Tengu was a better choice than goblin.

Preach.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Tengu was a better choice than goblin.

I think you’ll find plenty that would disagree and plenty who would substitute their favorite ancestry for the former and their less favorite ancestry for the latter.

Dark Archive 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Tengu was a better choice than goblin.
I think you’ll find plenty that would disagree and plenty who would substitute their favorite ancestry for the former and their less favorite ancestry for the latter.

Oh, I agree with you. This is a matter that will never have any sort of satisfactory result. The design team made a choice over which new ancestry would sell books. I disagree(d) with this choice, something over which I have been consistent. I am disappointed that I still cannot play my particular ancestry of choice dating back to the good ol' days of first edition.

I am happy for those that want and get to play goblins.

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't begrudge the folks who get to play goblins for that opportunity.

I do feel that some significant opportunities to truly own a new fantasy setting were missed.

That aside, I am grateful for the feedback both here and elsewhere.

There have been some good ideas, though some of them I'm not sure I could do in good conscience.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Fortunately, what some would call "bloat" in 1st Edition others would call a plethora of options and enough adventures to last years or decades. There's no need to rush to a new edition that only offering some mechanical tweaks and no new races or classes.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Cyrad wrote:

At least tengu has a release date.

Who knows how long I'll have to wait for kitsune, despite it being the most popular non-core race at the lodges I play.

Alex is holding out on this one longer than I thought he would....

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

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[old man voice]In my day in 2008 when I started PFS we could only play Core races... and liked it![/old man voice]

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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Bah, my third character was an aasimar, to hell with core races.

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

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Theres really no polite way to say how I feel about goblins.

2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Douglas Edwards wrote:
Theres really no polite way to say how I feel about goblins.

I used a thick black marker to totally cover over the goblin on the back of the 2e CRB.

Grand Lodge 4/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I love having goblins as a playable race. So do the new players showing up to our events and buying CRBs, Bestiaries, Condition Cards, and even better, GM Screens and PFS scenarios. We are experiencing a wonderful boom in player growth and participation.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Goblins have honestly not been a problem (at least locally and in my online games), I am currently more annoyed that we do not have errata or FAQ for the CRB, but according to the designers that will come before the new playtest (apparently they are still working hard on the GMG).

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

pjrogers wrote:
Douglas Edwards wrote:
Theres really no polite way to say how I feel about goblins.
I used a thick black marker to totally cover over the goblin on the back of the 2e CRB.

Your error was in purchasing the hardcover book in the first place.

#savethetrees


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
David knott 242 wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

At least tengu has a release date.

Who knows how long I'll have to wait for kitsune, despite it being the most popular non-core race at the lodges I play.

Alex is holding out on this one longer than I thought he would....

Maybe he is holding out because there is no Kitsune entry in the Bestiary? That would mean that anyone wanting to make a Kitsune ancestry has no Bestiary clues to help out.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Another thought: Maybe kitsune are in Bestiary 2? And since anyone who has worked on that book is probably under an NDA, that would rule out anyone with insider knowledge of such Paizo products from working on a kitsune ancestry.

5/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.
pjrogers wrote:
Douglas Edwards wrote:
Theres really no polite way to say how I feel about goblins.
I used a thick black marker to totally cover over the goblin on the back of the 2e CRB.

I used a thick black marker to write in tengu stats in the 2E CRB. I can show you right here where it shows tengu in the Core Rulebook, in ink, so you can see I was right when I said it was a playable race.

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...I would like to know more... Do you have a pamphlet?

:>

Silver Crusade 3/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

What about cute little froggies?

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