Samurai's P2 changes


Homebrew and House Rules

Sovereign Court

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So here are my changes so far for P2. They cover a wide range of topics, from fixing the Alchemist's Research Fields (including adding a new one: Toxicologist), to adding a General feat for multiclassing, to fixes for lots of spells, and a new Condition: Entangled. I also included the Errata that we know about so far at the end, so you have 1 source for all the changes from the core book. This is version 1.0, and I plan to update it as needed. I welcome any feedback and questions about why I made the changes that I did, or suggestions for more changes, or concerns for the ramifications of these changes.

Samurai's Pathfinder 2E Changes

Sovereign Court

No one is responding, I'm not sure if the downloadable sheet is working for others or not. So here are the contents. They are much prettier is the sheet above.

Ancestries:
Dwarf: Death Warden Dwarf (pg 35): This Heritage includes Resistance equal to half your level vs negative energy damage.

Goblin: Rough Rider (pg 48): This feat gives the wolf or goblin dog the Mount ability.

Elf: Elf Atavism (pg 58): You can gain Darkvision with Cavern Elf ancestry, just as the Half-Ork can.

Alchemist
Each of the Research Fields specializes in 1 type of academical item, though any alchemist can learn and use any formula at the listed potency. The Alchemist’s tools includes a free Formula book in it’s cost and weight.

Bomber: Your Class Stat bonus is either Int or Dex. In addition to the 2 extra bomb formulas and the ability to prevent the splash damage from affecting adjacent targets (such as your allies), whenever a Bomber throws his own bombs, they act as it they were the next higher type. So a Lesser acts as a Moderate, a Moderate acts as a Greater, a Greater acts as a Major, and a Major gets an additional +1 attack bonus and +1 die of damage.

Chirurgeon: Your Class Stat bonus is either Int or Wis. In addition to the listed benefits in the book (2 free Elixir formulas and using Crafting as Medicine), when you use or apply your own Elixirs they act as if they were the next higher type. For Elixirs that don’t have specified types or are already at max level, it doubles the Duration.

Mutagenist: Your Class Stat bonus is either Int or Str. In addition to the 2 extra Mutagen formulas you are Trained in Medium armor, and it increases when you increase your Light Armor Prof. (The listed bonus of Unarmed attacks being equal to Simple Weapons is now standard for characters of all classes) Whenever a Mutagenist consumes one of their own mutagens, it acts as the next higher type. So a Lesser acts as a Moderate, a Moderate acts as a Greater, a Greater acts as a Major, and a Major does not suffer from the Drawback.

New Research Field: Toxicologist: Your Class Stat bonus is Int. You get Antidote and one level 1 poison in your formula book for free. You get Poison Resistance equal to your level and have a +2 bonus on saves vs Poison. (This is effectively double the Poison Resistance feat, which you are not allowed to take.)

Revivifying Mutagen (pg 77): This ability may be used only once per mutagen. I does not end the mutagen’s effects.

Enduring Alchemy (pg 78): Items you create with Quick Alchemy last for 1 minute instead of til your next round.

Perfect Debilitation (pg 81): Since True Debilitating Bomb already gives the ability to save only on a Crit Success, this feat expands that to the effects listed under True Debilitating Bomb and also causes anyone who actually fails the save to suffer 2x the effects (so -10 speed becomes -20’ speed, etc).

Perfect Mutagen (pg 81): Since Mutagenists automaticaly don’t suffer from the drawbacks on a Major Mutagen, this feat expands that ability to any other level of Mutagen you craft and for a Mutagenist it doubles the duration of a Major mutagen.

Barbarian:
Second Wind (pg 89): In addition to letting him rage again, it heals him for 1d12+Con mod hit points.

Giant’s Stature (pg 91): You gain the effects of an Enlarge spell until your rage ends (pg 336). You get a +2 status bonus to melee damage, +5’ reach, and Clumsy 1.

Titan’s Stature (pg 92): You gain the effects of a Heightened Enlarge spell until your rage ends (pg 336). You get a +4 status bonus to your melee damage, +10’ reach, and Clumsy 1.

Reckless Abandon (pg 93): You gain a +2 Circumstance bonus to both your attack rolls and damage rolls in exchange for the -2 AC and -1 Saves

Bard:
Esoteric Polymath (pg 100): This feat allows you to swap one of the spells normally in your repertoire for another spell of the same level from your spellbook. You can’t choose the same spell twice because all Spontaneous caster spells automatically count as Signature Spells.

Versatile Signature (pg 101): The effects of this feat are changed. You may spend 10 minutes exchanging one of the spells in your Esoteric Polymath spellbook for any other spell in your book of the same level. You may only do this once per day.

Know-It-All (pg 102): This feat allows you to increase your Knowledge check results by 1 step. A Critical Failure counts as a Failure, a Failure counts as a Success, and so on as described.

Eclectic Polymath (pg 102): You may add 1 Occult spell per day from your spellbook to your repertoire for free, not replacing one of your own spells. You may still add another by replacing 1 of your own using the Esoteric Polymath feat ability..

Impossible Polymath (pg 103): This expands the choices for swapping 1 spell from your repertoire, but you may not get it for free with the Eclectic feat, that is limited to Occult spells.

Symphony of the Muse (pg 103): Not only can you effectively use Harmonize for free to combine 3 compositions into 1 round without spending an action on it, but you only pay 1 Focus point for all 3 and the duration of them all is 1 minute instead of 1 round.

Champion:
Divine Health (pg 111): In addition to the personal benefits described, your Lay on Hands power allows you to attempt to Counteract Disease on the target. Make a save against the target’s disease’s DC (see pg 458). This is a normal save, not your own personal heightened results.

Radiant Blade Spirit (pg 113): In addition to more choices, you now get 2 Runes per day instead of just 1.

Divine Wall (pg 114): In addition to the difficult terrain, anyone who attempts to Shove you or forcibly move you has their effect lowered by 1 degree of success.

Shield of Grace (pg 115): In addition, your bonus to your shield’s Hardness increases to +4

Radiant Blade Master (pg 115): In addition to the choices, you now get 3 Runes per day instead of 2.

Shield Paragon (pg 115): In addition to the listed benefits, your shield’s Hardness is +10 instead of just +2.

Cleric:
Cloistered Cleric First Doctrine (1st) (pg 119): In addition to Domain Initiate, you get your choice of the Healing Hands or Harming Hands feat for free.

Cloistered Cleric Third Doctrine (7th) (pg 119): In addition to increasing your spell attack and save DC, you get the Advanced Doctrine feat for free.

Warpriest Second Doctrine (3rd) (pg 120): In addition to Training in martial weapons, they also receive the Emblazon Armament feat for free.

Ranger:
(pg 167): At level 1, all Rangers get Crafting at Trained and get the Snare Crafting feat for free. This reduces them to 3 + Int mod additional skills

Rogue:
Minor Magic (pg 184): Your Charisma is your casting ability modifier.

Reactive Pursuit (pg 185): You may still pursue as a Reaction even if you can’t end your move adjacent to the enemy because he is faster or you are hindered.

Sabotage (pg 185): This feat counts as a quick Disable Device check. Instead of damage, you can cut a bow string, sever a strap, or otherwise give the item a -1 item penalty, or -2 on a critical hit. This penalty applies to attack rolls, AC, etc. It takes 1 minute to fix. An item can only be sabotaged once.

Delay Trap (pg 186): On a Success, you only delay it until the end of your current turn.

Defensive Roll (pg 188): It doesn’t need to reduce you to 0 HP, it can be any critical hit.

Powerful Sneak (pg 189); When you change the damage type, you also increase them to the next higher die type (d6’s become d8’s).

Wizard:
Spellbook (pg 204): A Wizard starts with 10 Cantrips and 5 first level spells. When a Wizard increases in level, they may add a number of new spells to their spellbook for free. They get either 2 or their Int. mod, per level, whichever is higher. The spells must be from levels they can cast. They may also find spells in scrolls or books or from another Wizard to learn through skill checks (see pg 238).

Feats:
Multiclass Archetype Dedication (General feat Level 2): This feat may only be taken once per character as a General Feat. After the initial Dedication is taken this way, you may buy further Archetype feats as you increase in levels by using either your Class feats or your General feats. If you wish to have a second Multiclass Archetype Dedication, you must buy it as a Class feast and you need to have at least 2 additional feats under your first Archetype before you can choose another. The exception to this is the Human ancestry feat Multitalented. The second Archetype’s feats can only be bought with Class feats. You can’t choose a third Multiclass.

Spells:
Prepared Spell-casters vs Spontaneous Spell-caster: Spontaneous casters have a Spell Repertoire and those are the only spells they know. However, they can Heighten them freely, casting them using any spell slot that they wish, raising them to the highest level they can cast or lowering them to the base level of the spell. In effect, every one of their spells acts as a Signature Spell by the book’s definition. In contrast, Prepared casters must prepare the spell in the higher slot if they wish to Heighten it. They only need to learn the spell once though. If the spell is in their spellbook or their deity grants it to them, they can prepare it in any slot they have available. The benefit of Prepared casters is that they can change their spells prepared each day.

In effect, when a Spontaneous caster casts a spell, mark off the slot used, but they retain the spell to use again as long as they have slots to spend. When a Prepared caster casts a spell, mark off the spell. It can't be cast again until it is prepared again (unless they prepared multiple versions or copies).

Bard and Sorcerer: Signature Spell: Since Spontaneous casters effectively count all their spells as Signature Spells, replace this ability with an additional Class feat of 1st or 2nd level.

Animal Messenger (pg 318): The Duration is 1 week as long as there is a source of food for the animal nearby/along the way, or 1 day if there is not.

Bane (pg 320): The area starts as a 30’ emanation and can grow from there as described.

Bless (pg 321): The area starts as a 30’ emanation and can grow from there as described.

Blink (pg 321): You can attempt to pass through a solid object like a wall or door. You can only pass through 10’ of solid material, so if the barrier is thicker than that or there is not enough space for you on the other side of the barrier it won’t allow you through.

Chilling Darkness (pg 323): Heightened increases each of the damage types by 1d6, not 2d6.

Collective Transposition (pg 324): This spell allows you to swap the positions of 2 creatures within the range. If one or both of them is unwilling, they may each attempt a Will save to resist. They must both fail the save in order to be swapped. Heightened allows you to swap 2 more targets and increases the range by another 30’.

Continual Flame (pgf 326): Heightened increases the ranges of Bright and Dim light by +20’ each

Control Water (pg 326): If there are water creatures in the area, it acts like either the Command spell or the Slow spell upon them, caster’s choice.

Crushing Despair (327): Whenever it says the target is Slowed, they are also Stupefied 1 as well.

Daze (pg 327): When Heightened, the damage increases by the +1d6 and the Stun value also increases by +1.

Moment of Renewal (pg 353): The spell provides healing equal to Con mod x level hit points.

Moon Frenzy (pg353): The Heightened progression occurs at 7th and 9th level instead of 6th and 10th.

Overwhelming Presence (pg 356): The maximum duration is 1 minute

Sigil (pg 369): When the spell is cast the caster can choose 1 type of creature who can see an invisible sigil. It could be an ancestry, a gender, or a character class, or a combination of all 3 (“all females”, “all Elves”, “all wizards”, or “only female Elven wizards” for example)

Sleep (pg 370): A creature that becomes unconscious DOES fall prone and drops whatever it is holding. Sleeping creatures automatically wake up if they take any damage.

Tanglefoot (pg 377): When you Succeed on your spell attack, the target gains Entangled 1. On a Critical hit the target is first Immobilized for 1 round, then Entangled 1 after that. The cspell can be Heightened further: at level 6 is causes Entangle 2, and at level 8 it is Entangle 3

Tangling Creepers (pg 377): Targets in the area are Entangled 1 and must make Escape rolls to end the effect upon them. The Immobilizing vine’s hits pull the victim into the spell’s area, causes Immobilized for 1 round, and then Entangled 1 until it can escape.

Web (pg 384): Failing the saving throw inflicts Entangled 1.

Focus Spells
Champion:
Champion’s Sacrifice (pg 187): Your god looks kindly on your sacrifice for another. You only suffer 1 point of damage for every 3 that was done.

Cleric:
Healer’s Blessing (pg 393): The initial Focus spell heals the target for 1d8+Wis Mod. After that, the spell increases further Heals by the standard amount (+1, +2 more/ heightened).

Protector’s Sacrifice (pg 395): When you redirect the damage to yourself, your god protects you from some of the damage. You suffer 1 pt of damage for every 3 pts that you redirected.

Weapon Surge (pg 399): This spell can be Heightened [+1] The spell remains in effect 1 additional round and affects all attacks until it ends.

Sorcerer:
Angelic Halo (pg 402): All targets in the area regain a number of hit points equal to 1+the spell’s bonus when first cast. Then any further Heals receive the usual bonus effect.

Celestial Brand (pg 403): When Heightened, the bonus dmg is +1d4 and it lasts +1 additional round.

Faerie Dust (pg 404): When Heightened, the penalties increase by an additional -1 along with the +5’ rad.

Glutton’s Jaws (pg 404): When Heightened, increase both the damage by 1d8 and the temp HP by 1d6.

Playing the Game:
Initiative: If you get a natural 20 (Critical Success), all enemy targets are flat-footed to you on the first round until they have acted.

Crafting and Treasure:
Crafting begins at a base amount of time of 4 days, but you subtract the level of the item you are crafting from your own level to modify that amount of time. So a 5th level character who is an Expert at Crafting is creating a level 4 item, so he subtracts 1 day for a total of 3 days. The Minimum amount of time it takes is 4 days if you are Trained, 3 days if you are an Expert, 2 days if you are a Master, and 1 day if you are Legendary.

Tanglefoot Bag (pg 545): A Lesser type bag causes Entangled 1. A Moderate type of bag inflicts Entangled 2, a Greater type bag causes Entangled 3, and a Major type bag is also Entangled 3 but with a duration of up to 5 minutes

Precious Material Armor (pg 578):
Adamantine: Wearing Adamantine armor provides Resistance to all physical damage attacks (Bludgeoning, Piercing and Slashing). The value is 1 for Light armor, 2 for Medium armor, and 3 for Heavy armor. High-grade adamantine doubles these values.

Cold Iron: The Sickened 1 effects are for the Low-grade cold iron armor. For Standard-grade it is Sickened 2, and for High-grade it is Sickened 3.

Dragonhide Armor: While the armor itself is immune to damage from a corresponding energy-type, it only provides the wearer with the listed a +1 circumstance bonus to AC and saving throws against that energy type as it says on pg 579 . It can also be used to craft heavier armors than Light. If it is used to make Medium armor, the bonus increases to +2, and for Heavy armor it is +3.

Elven Chain: The listed bonuses are for Standard-grade. For High-grade it doubles to +4.

Silver Armor: The listed Sickened 1 effect is for Low-grade silver. For Standard-grade it is Sickened 2, and for High-grade it is Sickened 3.

Specific Shields: Any of the Specific Shields can be created from a Sturdy Shield instead of a regular steel shield. Substitute the listed shield values with those of the Sturdy Shield

Precious Material Weapons (pg 599):
Adamantine Weapons: The listed halving of Hardness is for a Standard-grade weapon. With High-grade adamantine, both the object’s Hardness and Broken Threshold are reduced by half.

Cold Iron Weapons: The Low-grade weapons deal the listed Vulnerability in the monster stat. Standard-grade deals double the listed Vulnerability, and High-grade deals 3 times the Vulnerability.

Darkwood Weapon: High-grade reduces the Bulk by 2 steps.

Mithral Weapon: High-grade reduces the Bulk by 2 steps.

Silver Weapons: The Low-grade weapons deal the listed Vulnerability in the monster stats and regular damage to Devils. Standard-grade deals double the listed Vulnerability and +5 damage to Devils, and High-grade deals 3 times the Vulnerability and +10 damage to Devils.

Conditions:
Entangled (new condition): A target who is Entangled 1 has Clumsy 1 and a -10’ move speed. If the effect had an attack roll and got a Critical Success, or if it had a saving throw and you got a Critical Failure, you are first Immobilized for 1 round and then it drops to the normal Entangled penalty for 1 minute. Someone who is Entangled can attempt to Escape using their Unarmed attack roll, or their Acrobatics or Athletics skill against the effect’s DC. If they are successful, Entangled ends. Entangled 2 causes Clumsy 2 and a -15’ speed, Entangled 3 causes Clumsy 3 and a -20’ speed.

Errata:
The Druid gets 5 Cantrips, as it says under Primal Spellcasting. The chart on pg 132 is wrong.

Sorcerers get the Resolve ability at 17th level, same as the Wizard.

An Adventurer’s pack only weighs 1 Bulk.

Humans get Common and 1 bonus language of their choice, plus an additional number equal to their Int mod.

Monk’s Ki abilities are based on their Wisdom.

When your proficiency in Simple weapons improves (including the Wizard’s weapons), your proficiency in Unarmed attacks similarly increases.

Most wizards don’t get a feat at first level as it says in the chart, only the Universalist gets one.

Heroic Recovery stabilizes you at 0 Hit Points and unconscious, but you don’t gain any additional Wounds when you wake up.

Sovereign Court

Possible Cabbage pointed out that while a General feat to get a Dedication at 3rd was fine, he cautioned against allowing it for further feats in the multiclass archetype. So I changed the wording:

Multiclass Archetype Dedication (General feat Level 2): This feat may only be taken once per character as a General Feat. After the initial Dedication is taken this way, you must buy further Archetype feats by using your Class feats, including your second Multiclass Dedication You can’t choose a third Multiclass.

Also, there is a debate right now about the Multiclass archetypes that have 2 Stat requirements listed, like all the martial classes. What do you think of just requiring 1 of the 2 listed stats instead of both? So Str OR Dex 14, not both at 14?


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In my opinion, the alchemist changes seem to be over-correcting. The advantage alchemist has over other classes is that they can conjure up any alchemical item at will; this extreme flexibility should come at the cost of effectiveness. This is like having access to a whole spell list such as a cleric has, but also being able to spontaneously cast instead of prepare. When those items are also punching above (or even at the same level as) spells gained at comparable levels, there's a discrepancy.

On another note, thank you for compiling some of the unofficial errata that devs have confirmed. This is very beneficial.


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Thanks for this! If nothing else, having the errata in one place until Paizo makes a real errata file is very useful.

I like some of what you've done with the other items so far as well.

A couple questions:

First, your spontaneous casters; they would not have to learn the same spell at a higher level in order to heighten it (signature spell notwithstanding)? That solution for them never sat well with me.

Second, What's your thought (if any) on Magic Missile? There is a thread debating if it is subject to the miss chance from Concealed, since it specifically avoids mentioning it in the spell description.

Sovereign Court

BellyBeard wrote:

In my opinion, the alchemist changes seem to be over-correcting. The advantage alchemist has over other classes is that they can conjure up any alchemical item at will; this extreme flexibility should come at the cost of effectiveness. This is like having access to a whole spell list such as a cleric has, but also being able to spontaneously cast instead of prepare. When those items are also punching above (or even at the same level as) spells gained at comparable levels, there's a discrepancy.

On another note, thank you for compiling some of the unofficial errata that devs have confirmed. This is very beneficial.

Thanks for the response! They still need to have the formula to craft the item, like a wizard need the spell in their spellbook. A wizard may have heard about Magic Missile, but if it isn't in his spell book, he can't cast it. Similarly, an Alchemist may have heard about an Elixir or Mutagen, but if the formula isn't in his formula book, he can't craft it. And an Alchemist only gets a few free infused reagents per day to craft his items. He can prepare some ahead of time at Daily Prep time and craft 2 batches for 1 reagent, or use Quick Alchemy at the time and create 1 batch that only lasts until the start of his next turn. And even during downtime, using reagents that he has bought, he can't create "any alchemical item" without the formula...

I'm sure there will be more Errata than I know about right now, like the Alchemist weight problem. Did you noticed my fix for that under Alchemist? The Formula book is included with the cost and weight of the Alchemy kit. So that way the kit itself would weigh 1 bulk by itself, and the book weighs 1 bulk by itself, but the kit is useless without a formula book so just bundle them together and keep the 2 bulk listing.

Sovereign Court

RH wrote:

Thanks for this! If nothing else, having the errata in one place until Paizo makes a real errata file is very useful.

I like some of what you've done with the other items so far as well.

A couple questions:

First, your spontaneous casters; they would not have to learn the same spell at a higher level in order to heighten it (signature spell notwithstanding)? That solution for them never sat well with me.

Second, What's your thought (if any) on Magic Missile? There is a thread debating if it is subject to the miss chance from Concealed, since it specifically avoids mentioning it in the spell description.

Thanks for the response! Correct, once they know the spell, they can cast it using any spell slot they have available. I think that is covered in the Spontaneous casters vs Prepared casters section. No need to learn it multiple times, I didn't like that either. If the same spell can be cast at multiple levels by someone who just learned it from a book, then someone who has the power inherently by birth should be even more adaptable. And that is the trade off between spontaneous vs prepared, one who can change his spells memorized every day, and one who can't, but can use his slots to power any spell he knows.

I have not read the whole thread, but I can see both sides to it. The question is whether a magic missile can target someone who has concealment. I think I'd rule on a case-by-case basis. If the concealment is something that comes and goes, like a fog that sometimes you can see through but blocks blocks your sight, I'd go with the miss chance. If they don't miss, it hits automatically. If the concealment is ongoing but you see where they are, like the Blur spell, then I'd say it hits automatically. The Blur spell even says "you can't use the concealment to hide or sneak." I think that could be the way to judge it, "Does this concealment allow you to hide and sneak? If yes, roll it. If not, magic missile hits." In fact, I think I'll add that note to Magic Missile in my changes.

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Ok, I just updated the rules (link in the first post) with the Magic Missile change. Thanks for the suggestion RH. And I also updated the Alchemist tools fix, thanks BellyBeard.


Samurai wrote:
Thanks for the response! They still need to have the formula to craft the item, like a wizard need the spell in their spellbook. A wizard may have heard about Magic Missile, but if it isn't in his spell book, he can't cast it.

Yes, that's true. Using wizard instead of cleric would have been a better example due to the spell book to formula book comparison. But the comparison stands, that once you know a formula you can then pull that item out using quick alchemy if and when it becomes the perfect tool for the job. A wizard who has the spell in their spellbook but didn't prepare it doesn't gain any benefit (with caveats about special wizard abilities to mitigate that limitation).

I will admit that I used hyperbole earlier. Realistically the alchemist probably won't have every single formula. But it is still a very significant benefit to be able to conjure up a cat's eye Elixir when the enemy has blur cast, and not waste resources on it if you don't find any enemies with concealment.


Samurai wrote:

So here are my changes so far for P2. They cover a wide range of topics, from fixing the Alchemist's Research Fields (including adding a new one: Toxicologist), to adding a General feat for multiclassing, to fixes for lots of spells, and a new Condition: Entangled. I also included the Errata that we know about so far at the end, so you have 1 source for all the changes from the core book. This is version 1.0, and I plan to update it as needed. I welcome any feedback and questions about why I made the changes that I did, or suggestions for more changes, or concerns for the ramifications of these changes.

Samurai's Pathfinder 2E Changes

You really like spontaneous casters.

Sovereign Court

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AnCap Dawg wrote:

You really like spontaneous casters.

I'm not trying to play favorites. I just feel that making Sorcerers and Bards have to learn the same spell at multiple levels is silly. Heightening spells should be second nature for them, and if Wizards, Clerics, and Druids don't have to learn them separately for every level then neither should they. In our games, retraining spells is not an easy task, you pretty much only get to change 1 spell in your Repertoire when you level up, and other than that you are stuck with what you have. The flexibility to change your spell list each day and to have as many spells in your spellbook as you can find/buy (and Divine and Primal casters get every spell on their respective lists for free) are inherent bonuses of Prepared Casters, so it only seems fair to give Spontaneous Casters a bit of a bonus too. So theirs is that they can use any level spell slot they have with any spell in their limited repertoire.


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A very VERY minor critique here: it's half-orc not half-ork.

Consider this comment a bump.


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Samurai wrote:
so it only seems fair to give Spontaneous Casters a bit of a bonus too.

I don't think you can just disregard the bonus that is spontaneous casting itself. Being able to flexible utilize your spell slots based on the needs of the encounters you run into rather than effectively guess ahead of time is in and of itself a huge boon (and sorcerers get an extra spell per day too).

Universal spontaneous heightening is a significant power boost and while I certainly think it fits the flavor of spontaneous casters a lot better than signature spells, I'm not sure they're mechanically weak enough to actually need either. Throwing an extra feat on top of that too seems like overkill.


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Squiggit wrote:
Samurai wrote:
so it only seems fair to give Spontaneous Casters a bit of a bonus too.

I don't think you can just disregard the bonus that is spontaneous casting itself. Being able to flexible utilize your spell slots based on the needs of the encounters you run into rather than effectively guess ahead of time is in and of itself a huge boon (and sorcerers get an extra spell per day too).

Universal spontaneous heightening is a significant power boost and while I certainly think it fits the flavor of spontaneous casters a lot better than signature spells, I'm not sure they're mechanically weak enough to actually need either. Throwing an extra feat on top of that too seems like overkill.

I think a good balance between full spontaneous heightening and what we have now is spontaneous undercasting. That is, when you learn a spell you automatically know lower level versions of the same spell, without them taking up space in your spell repertoire.

Plenty of people I've talked to about the subject don't even know that's not how it works by default. The only justification I've seen from the designers on why it works the way it does is some comment about players taking too long during the playtest, which from my experience playing 5e is just flat out nonsensical. No one I've played 5e with (including complete newbies who's never even seen an RPG before) ever had trouble figuring out how to cast the same spell at different levels...


Spontaneous undercasting I think is a really good solution that doesn't impact balance at all, definitely, because the versatility you gain from undercasting comes at the cost of raw power from not picking better high level spells.

That said, I like spontaneous heightening as an idea. I think it suits the Sorcerer's thematics really well. I just also think it's a fairly significant boost to power and flexibility and just throwing it in there without considering that and then just adding an extra feat just because feels potentially disruptive to game balance.

Quote:
which from my experience playing 5e is just flat out nonsensical.

TBH I super feel this. 5e is easily one of the most intuitive and direct D&D-like games I've played, it's explicitly aimed at attracting new players and I've never seen heightening trip people up there.

If anything I feel like the wizard casting mechanic is something that's a lot more likely to frustrate new players than heightening ever could and we were fine keeping that.

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Thanks for all the comments! I've fixed Ork for Orc and I removed the free feat for Spontaneous casters. It now just says they automatically get this ability so ignore it at 3rd level. I am inspired by rainzax's changes so I almost copied his Alchemist changes and did my own version of his Monk changes. It's a bit of a boost for the Monk because it gives them 1 free feat at level 1 depending upon how they focus their abilities. Like everything, that is subject to change if people don't like it. (see, I don't just boost casters! ;) )

There has been enough changes since I started that I have advanced the file name to version 1.1. I really appreciate all the feedback!

Samurai's PF2 changes version 1.1

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"Squiggit wrote:
Quote:
which from my experience playing 5e is just flat out nonsensical.

TBH I super feel this. 5e is easily one of the most intuitive and direct D&D-like games I've played, it's explicitly aimed at attracting new players and I've never seen heightening trip people up there.

If anything I feel like the wizard casting mechanic is something that's a lot more likely to frustrate new players than heightening ever could and we were fine keeping that.

I agree, there is nothing hard about it at all. I think the harder thing would be trying to figure out what you can and can't Heighten. How would you mark and remember "Today X is my signature spell"? And I can't heighten all my other spells? The ability to only Heighten 1 spell per level but not the others would be MORE confusing for me, not less. I think limiting Spontaneous casters to only downgrading their spell slots but not upgrading them is also counterintuitive.


Samurai wrote:
How would you mark and remember "Today X is my signature spell"?

Your signature spells don't change daily. Put an asterisk next to one spell per spell level in your repertoire. That's your signature spell.

Letting spontaneous casters heighten all their spells freely is a significant power boost that will only get more noticeable at higher levels.

But, hey! It's your game. Do what's fun for you and your group.

Sovereign Court

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AnCap Dawg wrote:
Samurai wrote:
How would you mark and remember "Today X is my signature spell"?

Your signature spells don't change daily. Put an asterisk next to one spell per spell level in your repertoire. That's your signature spell.

Letting spontaneous casters heighten all their spells freely is a significant power boost that will only get more noticeable at higher levels.

But, hey! It's your game. Do what's fun for you and your group.

You're right, it is up to each group of players and GM to decide, I'm just trying to give my suggestions. In my opinion, it's no more powerful than freely letting Prepared casters just choose which spell levels to prepare a spell at each day. If someone who needs book learning just to figure out how to cast spells can do it for free, then why is it harder for someone who is born with magic naturally in their blood? That just makes no sense to me at all.

I'm just trying to get away from this:

GW: "Congrats, Wizard and Sorcerer, you are both level 3 now, pick your new level 2 spells!"

Wizard: "Finally! I'll choose some new second level spells!"

Sorcerer: "I'm going to just choose Shocking Grasp and Grim Tendrils again."

DM: "But you already know those spells."

Sorcerer: "Yes, but I want to be able to Heighten them."

Wizard: "Should have been a Wizard then, I can prepare them at any level and still expand my repertoire."


Samurai wrote:
In my opinion, it's no more powerful than freely letting Prepared casters just choose which spell levels to prepare a spell at each day.

Prepared casters have to try to guess what spells they'll need to heighten during their daily prep. Sometimes they have a good idea of what the day will bring. Often they don't. Spontaneous casters can heighten as they need to. I think it's a pretty big deal to always have the spell you need heightened.

As I said, at 3rd level it won't make much of a difference. At 20th that's a *huge* advantage.

Sovereign Court

I updated version 1.1 of my rules changes again. Link is a few posts back.

I added the ability to trade 1 or 2 of your ability boosts every time you get a choice of 4 Boosts. Ancestry and General feats cost 1 Boost, a Class feat costs 2 Boosts.

I also added a couple of new General Feats, Armor Expertise (lvl 13) and Weapon Expertise (lvl 11). They each have a requirement that you are at least an Expert in your Class weapons or armor. Taking these feats will increase any Armor or Weapon received through the General feats Armor Training and Weapon Training to Expert proficiency, and allows them to scale even higher along with your Class proficiencies. So if at some point your class gives you Master level armor or weapons, the proficiencies gained by your feats also scale with them. This is simply copying the Ancestry feats like Dwarven Weapon Expertise, Elven Weapon Expertise, Gnome Weapon Expertise, Goblin Weapon Expertise, Halfling Weapon Expertise, Unconventional Weapon Expertise, and Orc Weapon Expertise. I feel this was forgotten and would not be surprised to see an official version added in the APG.

Sovereign Court

Version 1.3 is now available. I made a few more changes (still tinkering and listening to feedback). I also fixed the cost of the Aldori Dueling Swords and added the Alchemical Gunslinger Archetype for those that have the Lost Omens World Guide (thanks to Reziburno25 for the inspiration). The changes now come to 9 pagers total, and the 10th page is the errata that Paizo has mentioned, so if anyone just wats the Errata, you can just print the last page (though things like the sword cost are not on the Errata page because I have not seen any official word they are fixing it, just joking that the 20 gp is the cost for official, "from Aldori limited edition swords") If they come out with official errata , I'll add it to the file.

Click here: Samurai's Pathfinder 2E changes and errata version 1.3


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Well you could give Prepared casters the extra feat to balance out the power gain from sponatanous heightening, although I'm not sure how good that would be.

Also Wizards do have the benefit of having virtually infinite space to learn more spells. So while they aren't very flexible in casting they can have an answer for any situation (after getting some time to rest).

Variability with limited width vs Expansive width with limited variability.

Sovereign Court

Temperans wrote:

Well you could give Prepared casters the extra feat to balance out the power gain from sponatanous heightening, although I'm not sure how good that would be.

Also Wizards do have the benefit of having virtually infinite space to learn more spells. So while they aren't very flexible in casting they can have an answer for any situation (after getting some time to rest).

Variability with limited width vs Expansive width with limited variability.

That is exactly the trade off: Variability with limited width vs Expansive width with limited variability.

And it's not just that Wizards can learn more spells, Clerics and Druids start off having full access to their entire spell lists. They just pray for it and bam, next day they can prepare it and cast it.

Prepared casters already get a feat or the effects of a feat: Each Wizard school gets +1 Focus point and a School spell to use with it, and the Universalist gets a Level 1 Class feat to compensate. The other prepared casters do similar things: They either get a Focus spell or some other benefit.


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I mentioned the extra feat because of the concern that free spontaneous heightening is too good.

Sovereign Court

Temperans wrote:
I mentioned the extra feat because of the concern that free spontaneous heightening is too good.

I think the Spontaneous casters were unduly crippled in PF2 and I'm just restoring the power I feel they should have had. The Cleric and Druid already get full access to every spell on their respective lists and I increased the number of spells Wizards get as they level up. I'm not sure if you noticed that. They now get their Int mod in new spells per level, minimum of +2 spells/level increased. And they can also find or buy even more than the free ones to add to their spell books. This is meant to give them the versatility to prepare the spells they need, which balances the Spontaneous casters ability to use the limited spells they know to the full extent.

Sovereign Court

I made 1 more update to my rules changes: There is a discussion over on Reddit about the Champion's Litanies being a waste of a Focus point because they only last 1 round at most, and then the target becomes immune to your litanies for 1 minute. So I changed them to last 1 minute each. Now there is reason that they can't be affected by another for 1 minute: Either they got a crit success, or they are under the effects of your litany already.

Sovereign Court

A couple more changes today. I changed all Demonic and Diabolic Sorcerers to the Arcane spell lists instead of Divine. And I buffed Celestial Brand a bit. The Duration is now 1 minute instead of 1 round. I made a similar change to the Champion's Litanies, but I didn't really notice Celestial Brand until today. In my opinion, if a spell only last 1 round, it better have game changing effects, and the Brand doesn't in my opinion.

Also, I encourage people who like my changes to go look at my full Warlock class for PF2.

Sovereign Court

A couple more changes today. Magic Fang and other Item bonuses now all work on Animal companions. I had previously missed the thread that pointed out that Magic Fang won't help your companion much, if at all. In the same vein, I defined "Ally" as "any willing target, including the caster if he wishes" so now a Wild shaped Druid can give himself Magic Fang if he wants. It was silly that Magic Fang would work on a Wild shaped Druid, but only if cast by someone else.

I think the total number is getting high enough that after the next change I'll increase the version number, but it is 2 AM tonight...

Sovereign Court

Another change and a few spelling corrections I changed the Basic, Expert, and Master Spellcasting feats from the Multiclass Dedications to each give 2 spells per level (Thanks again Rainzax!) I also clarified that the Breadth feats that give +1 spell per level includes +1 Cantrip. It may have done that already, not sure, but by the wording "increase the spell slots you gain from Archetype feats" it does not seem to by RAW.

Because of all the accumulated changes I've been making I increased the version number to 1.4.

Samurai's Pathfinder 2e changes version 1.4

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A bunch of new changes and additions... tweaking some spells, such as Electric Arc because some people say it is too good when you hit 2 targets (now a single target takes the listed damage and if you attack 2 targets the damage is reduced by 1d4). I changed the Volley trait on longbows, it now offers you the ability to spend all 3 actions to fire 2 arrows at -2 each, no additional MAP but range, cover, and visibility still apply. This is a much better definition of "volley" IMHO, but I then had to tweak some other things too, such as giving Shortbows the Agile Trait, and changing the Ranger and Fighter feats that apply to keep it all balanced. I also included a "Rapid Reload" General feat that allows you to use your Reaction as 1 Reload action per turn in order to help out the Crossbow users.

Oh, and I don't think I had mentioned this before but I also created 4 kinds of Elemental Sorcerer bloodlines, 1 for each element (not sure why the writers didn't do that themselves rather than just including a note to change the Fire damage spells into Bludgeoning damage). There may be a few other changes that I'm forgetting to mention, the total file is now 12 pages long including the Lost Omens Word Guide changes and additional Archetype and the official Errata. I'll get started on the Lost Omens Character Guide once I get it in about a week.

The version number at the top of the page is now 1.41, and you can download it at the version 1.4 link above.

Sovereign Court

I received the Lost Omens Character Guide today and I've started going through it to see what needs tweaks and fixes. Not a whole lot right now, but I'm only on page 61 of my read-through so far, I still have the organizations to go. But I have uploaded a new version of my rules changes with what I have so far (about half a page from LOCG) and a new fix I came up with for the "consumable shields" problem... It's very easy! If an attack exceeds the Shield's Hardness by 1 or more points, the excess is passed on to the character (like normal) and then the shield's HP is reduced by 1. Doesn't matter if 1 point or 10 points got through, just 1 point of shield damage per breach. Then, when it hits the Broken Threshold, the AC bonus is reduced by 1 but it can still absorb more damage. When the total damage takes it to 0 HP, only THEN is the shield destroyed and useless.

So, only 1 HP lost per breach, and Broken just reduces the AC bonus by 1. This way shields can still be broken and destroyed, but it's quite a bit harder and the Fighter doesn't need to carry extra shields into the dungeon expecting some to break in a hit or 2.

The rules are in the version 1.4 link above and I've progressed the version to 1.42 now.

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