Samurai's P2 changes


Homebrew and House Rules

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Sovereign Court

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So here are my changes so far for P2. They cover a wide range of topics, from fixing the Alchemist's Research Fields (including adding a new one: Toxicologist), to adding a General feat for multiclassing, to fixes for lots of spells, and a new Condition: Entangled. I also included the Errata that we know about so far at the end, so you have 1 source for all the changes from the core book. This is version 1.0, and I plan to update it as needed. I welcome any feedback and questions about why I made the changes that I did, or suggestions for more changes, or concerns for the ramifications of these changes.

Samurai's Pathfinder 2E Changes

Sovereign Court

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No one is responding, I'm not sure if the downloadable sheet is working for others or not. So here are the contents. They are much prettier is the sheet above.

Ancestries:
Dwarf: Death Warden Dwarf (pg 35): This Heritage includes Resistance equal to half your level vs negative energy damage.

Goblin: Rough Rider (pg 48): This feat gives the wolf or goblin dog the Mount ability.

Elf: Elf Atavism (pg 58): You can gain Darkvision with Cavern Elf ancestry, just as the Half-Ork can.

Alchemist
Each of the Research Fields specializes in 1 type of academical item, though any alchemist can learn and use any formula at the listed potency. The Alchemist’s tools includes a free Formula book in it’s cost and weight.

Bomber: Your Class Stat bonus is either Int or Dex. In addition to the 2 extra bomb formulas and the ability to prevent the splash damage from affecting adjacent targets (such as your allies), whenever a Bomber throws his own bombs, they act as it they were the next higher type. So a Lesser acts as a Moderate, a Moderate acts as a Greater, a Greater acts as a Major, and a Major gets an additional +1 attack bonus and +1 die of damage.

Chirurgeon: Your Class Stat bonus is either Int or Wis. In addition to the listed benefits in the book (2 free Elixir formulas and using Crafting as Medicine), when you use or apply your own Elixirs they act as if they were the next higher type. For Elixirs that don’t have specified types or are already at max level, it doubles the Duration.

Mutagenist: Your Class Stat bonus is either Int or Str. In addition to the 2 extra Mutagen formulas you are Trained in Medium armor, and it increases when you increase your Light Armor Prof. (The listed bonus of Unarmed attacks being equal to Simple Weapons is now standard for characters of all classes) Whenever a Mutagenist consumes one of their own mutagens, it acts as the next higher type. So a Lesser acts as a Moderate, a Moderate acts as a Greater, a Greater acts as a Major, and a Major does not suffer from the Drawback.

New Research Field: Toxicologist: Your Class Stat bonus is Int. You get Antidote and one level 1 poison in your formula book for free. You get Poison Resistance equal to your level and have a +2 bonus on saves vs Poison. (This is effectively double the Poison Resistance feat, which you are not allowed to take.)

Revivifying Mutagen (pg 77): This ability may be used only once per mutagen. I does not end the mutagen’s effects.

Enduring Alchemy (pg 78): Items you create with Quick Alchemy last for 1 minute instead of til your next round.

Perfect Debilitation (pg 81): Since True Debilitating Bomb already gives the ability to save only on a Crit Success, this feat expands that to the effects listed under True Debilitating Bomb and also causes anyone who actually fails the save to suffer 2x the effects (so -10 speed becomes -20’ speed, etc).

Perfect Mutagen (pg 81): Since Mutagenists automaticaly don’t suffer from the drawbacks on a Major Mutagen, this feat expands that ability to any other level of Mutagen you craft and for a Mutagenist it doubles the duration of a Major mutagen.

Barbarian:
Second Wind (pg 89): In addition to letting him rage again, it heals him for 1d12+Con mod hit points.

Giant’s Stature (pg 91): You gain the effects of an Enlarge spell until your rage ends (pg 336). You get a +2 status bonus to melee damage, +5’ reach, and Clumsy 1.

Titan’s Stature (pg 92): You gain the effects of a Heightened Enlarge spell until your rage ends (pg 336). You get a +4 status bonus to your melee damage, +10’ reach, and Clumsy 1.

Reckless Abandon (pg 93): You gain a +2 Circumstance bonus to both your attack rolls and damage rolls in exchange for the -2 AC and -1 Saves

Bard:
Esoteric Polymath (pg 100): This feat allows you to swap one of the spells normally in your repertoire for another spell of the same level from your spellbook. You can’t choose the same spell twice because all Spontaneous caster spells automatically count as Signature Spells.

Versatile Signature (pg 101): The effects of this feat are changed. You may spend 10 minutes exchanging one of the spells in your Esoteric Polymath spellbook for any other spell in your book of the same level. You may only do this once per day.

Know-It-All (pg 102): This feat allows you to increase your Knowledge check results by 1 step. A Critical Failure counts as a Failure, a Failure counts as a Success, and so on as described.

Eclectic Polymath (pg 102): You may add 1 Occult spell per day from your spellbook to your repertoire for free, not replacing one of your own spells. You may still add another by replacing 1 of your own using the Esoteric Polymath feat ability..

Impossible Polymath (pg 103): This expands the choices for swapping 1 spell from your repertoire, but you may not get it for free with the Eclectic feat, that is limited to Occult spells.

Symphony of the Muse (pg 103): Not only can you effectively use Harmonize for free to combine 3 compositions into 1 round without spending an action on it, but you only pay 1 Focus point for all 3 and the duration of them all is 1 minute instead of 1 round.

Champion:
Divine Health (pg 111): In addition to the personal benefits described, your Lay on Hands power allows you to attempt to Counteract Disease on the target. Make a save against the target’s disease’s DC (see pg 458). This is a normal save, not your own personal heightened results.

Radiant Blade Spirit (pg 113): In addition to more choices, you now get 2 Runes per day instead of just 1.

Divine Wall (pg 114): In addition to the difficult terrain, anyone who attempts to Shove you or forcibly move you has their effect lowered by 1 degree of success.

Shield of Grace (pg 115): In addition, your bonus to your shield’s Hardness increases to +4

Radiant Blade Master (pg 115): In addition to the choices, you now get 3 Runes per day instead of 2.

Shield Paragon (pg 115): In addition to the listed benefits, your shield’s Hardness is +10 instead of just +2.

Cleric:
Cloistered Cleric First Doctrine (1st) (pg 119): In addition to Domain Initiate, you get your choice of the Healing Hands or Harming Hands feat for free.

Cloistered Cleric Third Doctrine (7th) (pg 119): In addition to increasing your spell attack and save DC, you get the Advanced Doctrine feat for free.

Warpriest Second Doctrine (3rd) (pg 120): In addition to Training in martial weapons, they also receive the Emblazon Armament feat for free.

Ranger:
(pg 167): At level 1, all Rangers get Crafting at Trained and get the Snare Crafting feat for free. This reduces them to 3 + Int mod additional skills

Rogue:
Minor Magic (pg 184): Your Charisma is your casting ability modifier.

Reactive Pursuit (pg 185): You may still pursue as a Reaction even if you can’t end your move adjacent to the enemy because he is faster or you are hindered.

Sabotage (pg 185): This feat counts as a quick Disable Device check. Instead of damage, you can cut a bow string, sever a strap, or otherwise give the item a -1 item penalty, or -2 on a critical hit. This penalty applies to attack rolls, AC, etc. It takes 1 minute to fix. An item can only be sabotaged once.

Delay Trap (pg 186): On a Success, you only delay it until the end of your current turn.

Defensive Roll (pg 188): It doesn’t need to reduce you to 0 HP, it can be any critical hit.

Powerful Sneak (pg 189); When you change the damage type, you also increase them to the next higher die type (d6’s become d8’s).

Wizard:
Spellbook (pg 204): A Wizard starts with 10 Cantrips and 5 first level spells. When a Wizard increases in level, they may add a number of new spells to their spellbook for free. They get either 2 or their Int. mod, per level, whichever is higher. The spells must be from levels they can cast. They may also find spells in scrolls or books or from another Wizard to learn through skill checks (see pg 238).

Feats:
Multiclass Archetype Dedication (General feat Level 2): This feat may only be taken once per character as a General Feat. After the initial Dedication is taken this way, you may buy further Archetype feats as you increase in levels by using either your Class feats or your General feats. If you wish to have a second Multiclass Archetype Dedication, you must buy it as a Class feast and you need to have at least 2 additional feats under your first Archetype before you can choose another. The exception to this is the Human ancestry feat Multitalented. The second Archetype’s feats can only be bought with Class feats. You can’t choose a third Multiclass.

Spells:
Prepared Spell-casters vs Spontaneous Spell-caster: Spontaneous casters have a Spell Repertoire and those are the only spells they know. However, they can Heighten them freely, casting them using any spell slot that they wish, raising them to the highest level they can cast or lowering them to the base level of the spell. In effect, every one of their spells acts as a Signature Spell by the book’s definition. In contrast, Prepared casters must prepare the spell in the higher slot if they wish to Heighten it. They only need to learn the spell once though. If the spell is in their spellbook or their deity grants it to them, they can prepare it in any slot they have available. The benefit of Prepared casters is that they can change their spells prepared each day.

In effect, when a Spontaneous caster casts a spell, mark off the slot used, but they retain the spell to use again as long as they have slots to spend. When a Prepared caster casts a spell, mark off the spell. It can't be cast again until it is prepared again (unless they prepared multiple versions or copies).

Bard and Sorcerer: Signature Spell: Since Spontaneous casters effectively count all their spells as Signature Spells, replace this ability with an additional Class feat of 1st or 2nd level.

Animal Messenger (pg 318): The Duration is 1 week as long as there is a source of food for the animal nearby/along the way, or 1 day if there is not.

Bane (pg 320): The area starts as a 30’ emanation and can grow from there as described.

Bless (pg 321): The area starts as a 30’ emanation and can grow from there as described.

Blink (pg 321): You can attempt to pass through a solid object like a wall or door. You can only pass through 10’ of solid material, so if the barrier is thicker than that or there is not enough space for you on the other side of the barrier it won’t allow you through.

Chilling Darkness (pg 323): Heightened increases each of the damage types by 1d6, not 2d6.

Collective Transposition (pg 324): This spell allows you to swap the positions of 2 creatures within the range. If one or both of them is unwilling, they may each attempt a Will save to resist. They must both fail the save in order to be swapped. Heightened allows you to swap 2 more targets and increases the range by another 30’.

Continual Flame (pgf 326): Heightened increases the ranges of Bright and Dim light by +20’ each

Control Water (pg 326): If there are water creatures in the area, it acts like either the Command spell or the Slow spell upon them, caster’s choice.

Crushing Despair (327): Whenever it says the target is Slowed, they are also Stupefied 1 as well.

Daze (pg 327): When Heightened, the damage increases by the +1d6 and the Stun value also increases by +1.

Moment of Renewal (pg 353): The spell provides healing equal to Con mod x level hit points.

Moon Frenzy (pg353): The Heightened progression occurs at 7th and 9th level instead of 6th and 10th.

Overwhelming Presence (pg 356): The maximum duration is 1 minute

Sigil (pg 369): When the spell is cast the caster can choose 1 type of creature who can see an invisible sigil. It could be an ancestry, a gender, or a character class, or a combination of all 3 (“all females”, “all Elves”, “all wizards”, or “only female Elven wizards” for example)

Sleep (pg 370): A creature that becomes unconscious DOES fall prone and drops whatever it is holding. Sleeping creatures automatically wake up if they take any damage.

Tanglefoot (pg 377): When you Succeed on your spell attack, the target gains Entangled 1. On a Critical hit the target is first Immobilized for 1 round, then Entangled 1 after that. The cspell can be Heightened further: at level 6 is causes Entangle 2, and at level 8 it is Entangle 3

Tangling Creepers (pg 377): Targets in the area are Entangled 1 and must make Escape rolls to end the effect upon them. The Immobilizing vine’s hits pull the victim into the spell’s area, causes Immobilized for 1 round, and then Entangled 1 until it can escape.

Web (pg 384): Failing the saving throw inflicts Entangled 1.

Focus Spells
Champion:
Champion’s Sacrifice (pg 187): Your god looks kindly on your sacrifice for another. You only suffer 1 point of damage for every 3 that was done.

Cleric:
Healer’s Blessing (pg 393): The initial Focus spell heals the target for 1d8+Wis Mod. After that, the spell increases further Heals by the standard amount (+1, +2 more/ heightened).

Protector’s Sacrifice (pg 395): When you redirect the damage to yourself, your god protects you from some of the damage. You suffer 1 pt of damage for every 3 pts that you redirected.

Weapon Surge (pg 399): This spell can be Heightened [+1] The spell remains in effect 1 additional round and affects all attacks until it ends.

Sorcerer:
Angelic Halo (pg 402): All targets in the area regain a number of hit points equal to 1+the spell’s bonus when first cast. Then any further Heals receive the usual bonus effect.

Celestial Brand (pg 403): When Heightened, the bonus dmg is +1d4 and it lasts +1 additional round.

Faerie Dust (pg 404): When Heightened, the penalties increase by an additional -1 along with the +5’ rad.

Glutton’s Jaws (pg 404): When Heightened, increase both the damage by 1d8 and the temp HP by 1d6.

Playing the Game:
Initiative: If you get a natural 20 (Critical Success), all enemy targets are flat-footed to you on the first round until they have acted.

Crafting and Treasure:
Crafting begins at a base amount of time of 4 days, but you subtract the level of the item you are crafting from your own level to modify that amount of time. So a 5th level character who is an Expert at Crafting is creating a level 4 item, so he subtracts 1 day for a total of 3 days. The Minimum amount of time it takes is 4 days if you are Trained, 3 days if you are an Expert, 2 days if you are a Master, and 1 day if you are Legendary.

Tanglefoot Bag (pg 545): A Lesser type bag causes Entangled 1. A Moderate type of bag inflicts Entangled 2, a Greater type bag causes Entangled 3, and a Major type bag is also Entangled 3 but with a duration of up to 5 minutes

Precious Material Armor (pg 578):
Adamantine: Wearing Adamantine armor provides Resistance to all physical damage attacks (Bludgeoning, Piercing and Slashing). The value is 1 for Light armor, 2 for Medium armor, and 3 for Heavy armor. High-grade adamantine doubles these values.

Cold Iron: The Sickened 1 effects are for the Low-grade cold iron armor. For Standard-grade it is Sickened 2, and for High-grade it is Sickened 3.

Dragonhide Armor: While the armor itself is immune to damage from a corresponding energy-type, it only provides the wearer with the listed a +1 circumstance bonus to AC and saving throws against that energy type as it says on pg 579 . It can also be used to craft heavier armors than Light. If it is used to make Medium armor, the bonus increases to +2, and for Heavy armor it is +3.

Elven Chain: The listed bonuses are for Standard-grade. For High-grade it doubles to +4.

Silver Armor: The listed Sickened 1 effect is for Low-grade silver. For Standard-grade it is Sickened 2, and for High-grade it is Sickened 3.

Specific Shields: Any of the Specific Shields can be created from a Sturdy Shield instead of a regular steel shield. Substitute the listed shield values with those of the Sturdy Shield

Precious Material Weapons (pg 599):
Adamantine Weapons: The listed halving of Hardness is for a Standard-grade weapon. With High-grade adamantine, both the object’s Hardness and Broken Threshold are reduced by half.

Cold Iron Weapons: The Low-grade weapons deal the listed Vulnerability in the monster stat. Standard-grade deals double the listed Vulnerability, and High-grade deals 3 times the Vulnerability.

Darkwood Weapon: High-grade reduces the Bulk by 2 steps.

Mithral Weapon: High-grade reduces the Bulk by 2 steps.

Silver Weapons: The Low-grade weapons deal the listed Vulnerability in the monster stats and regular damage to Devils. Standard-grade deals double the listed Vulnerability and +5 damage to Devils, and High-grade deals 3 times the Vulnerability and +10 damage to Devils.

Conditions:
Entangled (new condition): A target who is Entangled 1 has Clumsy 1 and a -10’ move speed. If the effect had an attack roll and got a Critical Success, or if it had a saving throw and you got a Critical Failure, you are first Immobilized for 1 round and then it drops to the normal Entangled penalty for 1 minute. Someone who is Entangled can attempt to Escape using their Unarmed attack roll, or their Acrobatics or Athletics skill against the effect’s DC. If they are successful, Entangled ends. Entangled 2 causes Clumsy 2 and a -15’ speed, Entangled 3 causes Clumsy 3 and a -20’ speed.

Errata:
The Druid gets 5 Cantrips, as it says under Primal Spellcasting. The chart on pg 132 is wrong.

Sorcerers get the Resolve ability at 17th level, same as the Wizard.

An Adventurer’s pack only weighs 1 Bulk.

Humans get Common and 1 bonus language of their choice, plus an additional number equal to their Int mod.

Monk’s Ki abilities are based on their Wisdom.

When your proficiency in Simple weapons improves (including the Wizard’s weapons), your proficiency in Unarmed attacks similarly increases.

Most wizards don’t get a feat at first level as it says in the chart, only the Universalist gets one.

Heroic Recovery stabilizes you at 0 Hit Points and unconscious, but you don’t gain any additional Wounds when you wake up.

Sovereign Court

Possible Cabbage pointed out that while a General feat to get a Dedication at 3rd was fine, he cautioned against allowing it for further feats in the multiclass archetype. So I changed the wording:

Multiclass Archetype Dedication (General feat Level 2): This feat may only be taken once per character as a General Feat. After the initial Dedication is taken this way, you must buy further Archetype feats by using your Class feats, including your second Multiclass Dedication You can’t choose a third Multiclass.

Also, there is a debate right now about the Multiclass archetypes that have 2 Stat requirements listed, like all the martial classes. What do you think of just requiring 1 of the 2 listed stats instead of both? So Str OR Dex 14, not both at 14?


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In my opinion, the alchemist changes seem to be over-correcting. The advantage alchemist has over other classes is that they can conjure up any alchemical item at will; this extreme flexibility should come at the cost of effectiveness. This is like having access to a whole spell list such as a cleric has, but also being able to spontaneously cast instead of prepare. When those items are also punching above (or even at the same level as) spells gained at comparable levels, there's a discrepancy.

On another note, thank you for compiling some of the unofficial errata that devs have confirmed. This is very beneficial.


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Thanks for this! If nothing else, having the errata in one place until Paizo makes a real errata file is very useful.

I like some of what you've done with the other items so far as well.

A couple questions:

First, your spontaneous casters; they would not have to learn the same spell at a higher level in order to heighten it (signature spell notwithstanding)? That solution for them never sat well with me.

Second, What's your thought (if any) on Magic Missile? There is a thread debating if it is subject to the miss chance from Concealed, since it specifically avoids mentioning it in the spell description.

Sovereign Court

BellyBeard wrote:

In my opinion, the alchemist changes seem to be over-correcting. The advantage alchemist has over other classes is that they can conjure up any alchemical item at will; this extreme flexibility should come at the cost of effectiveness. This is like having access to a whole spell list such as a cleric has, but also being able to spontaneously cast instead of prepare. When those items are also punching above (or even at the same level as) spells gained at comparable levels, there's a discrepancy.

On another note, thank you for compiling some of the unofficial errata that devs have confirmed. This is very beneficial.

Thanks for the response! They still need to have the formula to craft the item, like a wizard need the spell in their spellbook. A wizard may have heard about Magic Missile, but if it isn't in his spell book, he can't cast it. Similarly, an Alchemist may have heard about an Elixir or Mutagen, but if the formula isn't in his formula book, he can't craft it. And an Alchemist only gets a few free infused reagents per day to craft his items. He can prepare some ahead of time at Daily Prep time and craft 2 batches for 1 reagent, or use Quick Alchemy at the time and create 1 batch that only lasts until the start of his next turn. And even during downtime, using reagents that he has bought, he can't create "any alchemical item" without the formula...

I'm sure there will be more Errata than I know about right now, like the Alchemist weight problem. Did you noticed my fix for that under Alchemist? The Formula book is included with the cost and weight of the Alchemy kit. So that way the kit itself would weigh 1 bulk by itself, and the book weighs 1 bulk by itself, but the kit is useless without a formula book so just bundle them together and keep the 2 bulk listing.

Sovereign Court

RH wrote:

Thanks for this! If nothing else, having the errata in one place until Paizo makes a real errata file is very useful.

I like some of what you've done with the other items so far as well.

A couple questions:

First, your spontaneous casters; they would not have to learn the same spell at a higher level in order to heighten it (signature spell notwithstanding)? That solution for them never sat well with me.

Second, What's your thought (if any) on Magic Missile? There is a thread debating if it is subject to the miss chance from Concealed, since it specifically avoids mentioning it in the spell description.

Thanks for the response! Correct, once they know the spell, they can cast it using any spell slot they have available. I think that is covered in the Spontaneous casters vs Prepared casters section. No need to learn it multiple times, I didn't like that either. If the same spell can be cast at multiple levels by someone who just learned it from a book, then someone who has the power inherently by birth should be even more adaptable. And that is the trade off between spontaneous vs prepared, one who can change his spells memorized every day, and one who can't, but can use his slots to power any spell he knows.

I have not read the whole thread, but I can see both sides to it. The question is whether a magic missile can target someone who has concealment. I think I'd rule on a case-by-case basis. If the concealment is something that comes and goes, like a fog that sometimes you can see through but blocks blocks your sight, I'd go with the miss chance. If they don't miss, it hits automatically. If the concealment is ongoing but you see where they are, like the Blur spell, then I'd say it hits automatically. The Blur spell even says "you can't use the concealment to hide or sneak." I think that could be the way to judge it, "Does this concealment allow you to hide and sneak? If yes, roll it. If not, magic missile hits." In fact, I think I'll add that note to Magic Missile in my changes.

Sovereign Court

Ok, I just updated the rules (link in the first post) with the Magic Missile change. Thanks for the suggestion RH. And I also updated the Alchemist tools fix, thanks BellyBeard.


Samurai wrote:
Thanks for the response! They still need to have the formula to craft the item, like a wizard need the spell in their spellbook. A wizard may have heard about Magic Missile, but if it isn't in his spell book, he can't cast it.

Yes, that's true. Using wizard instead of cleric would have been a better example due to the spell book to formula book comparison. But the comparison stands, that once you know a formula you can then pull that item out using quick alchemy if and when it becomes the perfect tool for the job. A wizard who has the spell in their spellbook but didn't prepare it doesn't gain any benefit (with caveats about special wizard abilities to mitigate that limitation).

I will admit that I used hyperbole earlier. Realistically the alchemist probably won't have every single formula. But it is still a very significant benefit to be able to conjure up a cat's eye Elixir when the enemy has blur cast, and not waste resources on it if you don't find any enemies with concealment.


Samurai wrote:

So here are my changes so far for P2. They cover a wide range of topics, from fixing the Alchemist's Research Fields (including adding a new one: Toxicologist), to adding a General feat for multiclassing, to fixes for lots of spells, and a new Condition: Entangled. I also included the Errata that we know about so far at the end, so you have 1 source for all the changes from the core book. This is version 1.0, and I plan to update it as needed. I welcome any feedback and questions about why I made the changes that I did, or suggestions for more changes, or concerns for the ramifications of these changes.

Samurai's Pathfinder 2E Changes

You really like spontaneous casters.

Sovereign Court

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AnCap Dawg wrote:

You really like spontaneous casters.

I'm not trying to play favorites. I just feel that making Sorcerers and Bards have to learn the same spell at multiple levels is silly. Heightening spells should be second nature for them, and if Wizards, Clerics, and Druids don't have to learn them separately for every level then neither should they. In our games, retraining spells is not an easy task, you pretty much only get to change 1 spell in your Repertoire when you level up, and other than that you are stuck with what you have. The flexibility to change your spell list each day and to have as many spells in your spellbook as you can find/buy (and Divine and Primal casters get every spell on their respective lists for free) are inherent bonuses of Prepared Casters, so it only seems fair to give Spontaneous Casters a bit of a bonus too. So theirs is that they can use any level spell slot they have with any spell in their limited repertoire.


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A very VERY minor critique here: it's half-orc not half-ork.

Consider this comment a bump.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Samurai wrote:
so it only seems fair to give Spontaneous Casters a bit of a bonus too.

I don't think you can just disregard the bonus that is spontaneous casting itself. Being able to flexible utilize your spell slots based on the needs of the encounters you run into rather than effectively guess ahead of time is in and of itself a huge boon (and sorcerers get an extra spell per day too).

Universal spontaneous heightening is a significant power boost and while I certainly think it fits the flavor of spontaneous casters a lot better than signature spells, I'm not sure they're mechanically weak enough to actually need either. Throwing an extra feat on top of that too seems like overkill.


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Squiggit wrote:
Samurai wrote:
so it only seems fair to give Spontaneous Casters a bit of a bonus too.

I don't think you can just disregard the bonus that is spontaneous casting itself. Being able to flexible utilize your spell slots based on the needs of the encounters you run into rather than effectively guess ahead of time is in and of itself a huge boon (and sorcerers get an extra spell per day too).

Universal spontaneous heightening is a significant power boost and while I certainly think it fits the flavor of spontaneous casters a lot better than signature spells, I'm not sure they're mechanically weak enough to actually need either. Throwing an extra feat on top of that too seems like overkill.

I think a good balance between full spontaneous heightening and what we have now is spontaneous undercasting. That is, when you learn a spell you automatically know lower level versions of the same spell, without them taking up space in your spell repertoire.

Plenty of people I've talked to about the subject don't even know that's not how it works by default. The only justification I've seen from the designers on why it works the way it does is some comment about players taking too long during the playtest, which from my experience playing 5e is just flat out nonsensical. No one I've played 5e with (including complete newbies who's never even seen an RPG before) ever had trouble figuring out how to cast the same spell at different levels...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Spontaneous undercasting I think is a really good solution that doesn't impact balance at all, definitely, because the versatility you gain from undercasting comes at the cost of raw power from not picking better high level spells.

That said, I like spontaneous heightening as an idea. I think it suits the Sorcerer's thematics really well. I just also think it's a fairly significant boost to power and flexibility and just throwing it in there without considering that and then just adding an extra feat just because feels potentially disruptive to game balance.

Quote:
which from my experience playing 5e is just flat out nonsensical.

TBH I super feel this. 5e is easily one of the most intuitive and direct D&D-like games I've played, it's explicitly aimed at attracting new players and I've never seen heightening trip people up there.

If anything I feel like the wizard casting mechanic is something that's a lot more likely to frustrate new players than heightening ever could and we were fine keeping that.

Sovereign Court

Thanks for all the comments! I've fixed Ork for Orc and I removed the free feat for Spontaneous casters. It now just says they automatically get this ability so ignore it at 3rd level. I am inspired by rainzax's changes so I almost copied his Alchemist changes and did my own version of his Monk changes. It's a bit of a boost for the Monk because it gives them 1 free feat at level 1 depending upon how they focus their abilities. Like everything, that is subject to change if people don't like it. (see, I don't just boost casters! ;) )

There has been enough changes since I started that I have advanced the file name to version 1.1. I really appreciate all the feedback!

Samurai's PF2 changes version 1.1

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"Squiggit wrote:
Quote:
which from my experience playing 5e is just flat out nonsensical.

TBH I super feel this. 5e is easily one of the most intuitive and direct D&D-like games I've played, it's explicitly aimed at attracting new players and I've never seen heightening trip people up there.

If anything I feel like the wizard casting mechanic is something that's a lot more likely to frustrate new players than heightening ever could and we were fine keeping that.

I agree, there is nothing hard about it at all. I think the harder thing would be trying to figure out what you can and can't Heighten. How would you mark and remember "Today X is my signature spell"? And I can't heighten all my other spells? The ability to only Heighten 1 spell per level but not the others would be MORE confusing for me, not less. I think limiting Spontaneous casters to only downgrading their spell slots but not upgrading them is also counterintuitive.


Samurai wrote:
How would you mark and remember "Today X is my signature spell"?

Your signature spells don't change daily. Put an asterisk next to one spell per spell level in your repertoire. That's your signature spell.

Letting spontaneous casters heighten all their spells freely is a significant power boost that will only get more noticeable at higher levels.

But, hey! It's your game. Do what's fun for you and your group.

Sovereign Court

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AnCap Dawg wrote:
Samurai wrote:
How would you mark and remember "Today X is my signature spell"?

Your signature spells don't change daily. Put an asterisk next to one spell per spell level in your repertoire. That's your signature spell.

Letting spontaneous casters heighten all their spells freely is a significant power boost that will only get more noticeable at higher levels.

But, hey! It's your game. Do what's fun for you and your group.

You're right, it is up to each group of players and GM to decide, I'm just trying to give my suggestions. In my opinion, it's no more powerful than freely letting Prepared casters just choose which spell levels to prepare a spell at each day. If someone who needs book learning just to figure out how to cast spells can do it for free, then why is it harder for someone who is born with magic naturally in their blood? That just makes no sense to me at all.

I'm just trying to get away from this:

GW: "Congrats, Wizard and Sorcerer, you are both level 3 now, pick your new level 2 spells!"

Wizard: "Finally! I'll choose some new second level spells!"

Sorcerer: "I'm going to just choose Shocking Grasp and Grim Tendrils again."

DM: "But you already know those spells."

Sorcerer: "Yes, but I want to be able to Heighten them."

Wizard: "Should have been a Wizard then, I can prepare them at any level and still expand my repertoire."


Samurai wrote:
In my opinion, it's no more powerful than freely letting Prepared casters just choose which spell levels to prepare a spell at each day.

Prepared casters have to try to guess what spells they'll need to heighten during their daily prep. Sometimes they have a good idea of what the day will bring. Often they don't. Spontaneous casters can heighten as they need to. I think it's a pretty big deal to always have the spell you need heightened.

As I said, at 3rd level it won't make much of a difference. At 20th that's a *huge* advantage.

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I updated version 1.1 of my rules changes again. Link is a few posts back.

I added the ability to trade 1 or 2 of your ability boosts every time you get a choice of 4 Boosts. Ancestry and General feats cost 1 Boost, a Class feat costs 2 Boosts.

I also added a couple of new General Feats, Armor Expertise (lvl 13) and Weapon Expertise (lvl 11). They each have a requirement that you are at least an Expert in your Class weapons or armor. Taking these feats will increase any Armor or Weapon received through the General feats Armor Training and Weapon Training to Expert proficiency, and allows them to scale even higher along with your Class proficiencies. So if at some point your class gives you Master level armor or weapons, the proficiencies gained by your feats also scale with them. This is simply copying the Ancestry feats like Dwarven Weapon Expertise, Elven Weapon Expertise, Gnome Weapon Expertise, Goblin Weapon Expertise, Halfling Weapon Expertise, Unconventional Weapon Expertise, and Orc Weapon Expertise. I feel this was forgotten and would not be surprised to see an official version added in the APG.

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Version 1.3 is now available. I made a few more changes (still tinkering and listening to feedback). I also fixed the cost of the Aldori Dueling Swords and added the Alchemical Gunslinger Archetype for those that have the Lost Omens World Guide (thanks to Reziburno25 for the inspiration). The changes now come to 9 pagers total, and the 10th page is the errata that Paizo has mentioned, so if anyone just wats the Errata, you can just print the last page (though things like the sword cost are not on the Errata page because I have not seen any official word they are fixing it, just joking that the 20 gp is the cost for official, "from Aldori limited edition swords") If they come out with official errata , I'll add it to the file.

Click here: Samurai's Pathfinder 2E changes and errata version 1.3


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Well you could give Prepared casters the extra feat to balance out the power gain from sponatanous heightening, although I'm not sure how good that would be.

Also Wizards do have the benefit of having virtually infinite space to learn more spells. So while they aren't very flexible in casting they can have an answer for any situation (after getting some time to rest).

Variability with limited width vs Expansive width with limited variability.

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Temperans wrote:

Well you could give Prepared casters the extra feat to balance out the power gain from sponatanous heightening, although I'm not sure how good that would be.

Also Wizards do have the benefit of having virtually infinite space to learn more spells. So while they aren't very flexible in casting they can have an answer for any situation (after getting some time to rest).

Variability with limited width vs Expansive width with limited variability.

That is exactly the trade off: Variability with limited width vs Expansive width with limited variability.

And it's not just that Wizards can learn more spells, Clerics and Druids start off having full access to their entire spell lists. They just pray for it and bam, next day they can prepare it and cast it.

Prepared casters already get a feat or the effects of a feat: Each Wizard school gets +1 Focus point and a School spell to use with it, and the Universalist gets a Level 1 Class feat to compensate. The other prepared casters do similar things: They either get a Focus spell or some other benefit.


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I mentioned the extra feat because of the concern that free spontaneous heightening is too good.

Sovereign Court

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Temperans wrote:
I mentioned the extra feat because of the concern that free spontaneous heightening is too good.

I think the Spontaneous casters were unduly crippled in PF2 and I'm just restoring the power I feel they should have had. The Cleric and Druid already get full access to every spell on their respective lists and I increased the number of spells Wizards get as they level up. I'm not sure if you noticed that. They now get their Int mod in new spells per level, minimum of +2 spells/level increased. And they can also find or buy even more than the free ones to add to their spell books. This is meant to give them the versatility to prepare the spells they need, which balances the Spontaneous casters ability to use the limited spells they know to the full extent.

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I made 1 more update to my rules changes: There is a discussion over on Reddit about the Champion's Litanies being a waste of a Focus point because they only last 1 round at most, and then the target becomes immune to your litanies for 1 minute. So I changed them to last 1 minute each. Now there is reason that they can't be affected by another for 1 minute: Either they got a crit success, or they are under the effects of your litany already.

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A couple more changes today. I changed all Demonic and Diabolic Sorcerers to the Arcane spell lists instead of Divine. And I buffed Celestial Brand a bit. The Duration is now 1 minute instead of 1 round. I made a similar change to the Champion's Litanies, but I didn't really notice Celestial Brand until today. In my opinion, if a spell only last 1 round, it better have game changing effects, and the Brand doesn't in my opinion.

Also, I encourage people who like my changes to go look at my full Warlock class for PF2.

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A couple more changes today. Magic Fang and other Item bonuses now all work on Animal companions. I had previously missed the thread that pointed out that Magic Fang won't help your companion much, if at all. In the same vein, I defined "Ally" as "any willing target, including the caster if he wishes" so now a Wild shaped Druid can give himself Magic Fang if he wants. It was silly that Magic Fang would work on a Wild shaped Druid, but only if cast by someone else.

I think the total number is getting high enough that after the next change I'll increase the version number, but it is 2 AM tonight...

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Another change and a few spelling corrections I changed the Basic, Expert, and Master Spellcasting feats from the Multiclass Dedications to each give 2 spells per level (Thanks again Rainzax!) I also clarified that the Breadth feats that give +1 spell per level includes +1 Cantrip. It may have done that already, not sure, but by the wording "increase the spell slots you gain from Archetype feats" it does not seem to by RAW.

Because of all the accumulated changes I've been making I increased the version number to 1.4.

Samurai's Pathfinder 2e changes version 1.4

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A bunch of new changes and additions... tweaking some spells, such as Electric Arc because some people say it is too good when you hit 2 targets (now a single target takes the listed damage and if you attack 2 targets the damage is reduced by 1d4). I changed the Volley trait on longbows, it now offers you the ability to spend all 3 actions to fire 2 arrows at -2 each, no additional MAP but range, cover, and visibility still apply. This is a much better definition of "volley" IMHO, but I then had to tweak some other things too, such as giving Shortbows the Agile Trait, and changing the Ranger and Fighter feats that apply to keep it all balanced. I also included a "Rapid Reload" General feat that allows you to use your Reaction as 1 Reload action per turn in order to help out the Crossbow users.

Oh, and I don't think I had mentioned this before but I also created 4 kinds of Elemental Sorcerer bloodlines, 1 for each element (not sure why the writers didn't do that themselves rather than just including a note to change the Fire damage spells into Bludgeoning damage). There may be a few other changes that I'm forgetting to mention, the total file is now 12 pages long including the Lost Omens Word Guide changes and additional Archetype and the official Errata. I'll get started on the Lost Omens Character Guide once I get it in about a week.

The version number at the top of the page is now 1.41, and you can download it at the version 1.4 link above.

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I received the Lost Omens Character Guide today and I've started going through it to see what needs tweaks and fixes. Not a whole lot right now, but I'm only on page 61 of my read-through so far, I still have the organizations to go. But I have uploaded a new version of my rules changes with what I have so far (about half a page from LOCG) and a new fix I came up with for the "consumable shields" problem... It's very easy! If an attack exceeds the Shield's Hardness by 1 or more points, the excess is passed on to the character (like normal) and then the shield's HP is reduced by 1. Doesn't matter if 1 point or 10 points got through, just 1 point of shield damage per breach. Then, when it hits the Broken Threshold, the AC bonus is reduced by 1 but it can still absorb more damage. When the total damage takes it to 0 HP, only THEN is the shield destroyed and useless.

So, only 1 HP lost per breach, and Broken just reduces the AC bonus by 1. This way shields can still be broken and destroyed, but it's quite a bit harder and the Fighter doesn't need to carry extra shields into the dungeon expecting some to break in a hit or 2.

The rules are in the version 1.4 link above and I've progressed the version to 1.42 now.

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I've finally finished the Lost Omens Character Guide. I found about 1 page worth of things in it I felt needed to be changed or better explained.

I also made a few more changes from the core rulebook including the Giant Instinct Barbarian. The Iruxi also got me to take a closer look at the Critical specializations for unarmed attacks. They now count as the most appropriate weapon. So claws and fangs count as the Knife group, horns and antlers as Shields, tails (because of their sweep trait) have the Axe crit specialization, etc.

The file is now labelled 1.43 and is available in the 1.4 link above. Always interested in your responses! When the official Errata finally comes out I'll update it again, removing anything unneeded and moving duplicated stuff to the Official Errata addendum at the back and post a new link to version 1.5!


A champion could really have a reason to go deep shield or weapon then, even if I think that it could be way to strong, or forced into not taking any dedication but 2x divine ally.

14 extra hardness wouldn't hurt because the +4 will be from lvl 16 to lvl 19, and the +10 at lvl 20.

However, I think shield of paragon is already overpower. It give you the always raise and increase by another 50% your shield HP and BT.

Just give +4 hardness on shield of Grace.

About the goblin traits. Nope.

It is already overpower by himself giving the choice between a druid/ranger companion and a horse with the mount ability. Giving a Wolf companion with the mount ability would be an exploit.

Divine health should be entirely redesigned, because of his critical success on success which will be by default starting from lvl 9.

I will simply give him a +4 bonus status against disease. That's it. Nothing else.

Lay on hand feats already exists.

Finally, about the divine weapon runes, seems op, but I am not really sure.

The real issue here is that lvl 20 gives you lvl 13 stuff.

At The moment i like instrument of Zeal. , but I don't know if it is fine.

The perfect lvl for the lvl 20 feat would be lvl 14 or 16. So, It would be a rough choice. Maybe a better instrument of Zeal by lvl 20. Dunno

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K1 wrote:

A champion could really have a reason to go deep shield or weapon then, even if I think that it could be way to strong, or forced into not taking any dedication but 2x divine ally.

14 extra hardness wouldn't hurt because the +4 will be from lvl 16 to lvl 19, and the +10 at lvl 20.

However, I think shield of paragon is already overpower. It give you the always raise and increase by another 50% your shield HP and BT.

Just give +4 hardness on shield of Grace.

About the goblin traits. Nope.

It is already overpower by himself giving the choice between a druid/ranger companion and a horse with the mount ability. Giving a Wolf companion with the mount ability would be an exploit.

Divine health should be entirely redesigned, because of his critical success on success which will be by default starting from lvl 9.

I will simply give him a +4 bonus status against disease. That's it. Nothing else.

Lay on hand feats already exists.

Finally, about the divine weapon runes, seems op, but I am not really sure.

The real issue here is that lvl 20 gives you lvl 13 stuff.

At The moment i like instrument of Zeal. , but I don't know if it is fine.

The perfect lvl for the lvl 20 feat would be lvl 14 or 16. So, It would be a rough choice. Maybe a better instrument of Zeal by lvl 20. Dunno

Thanks for taking a look and commenting!

I don't know what you mean by "not taking any dedication but 2x Divine Ally". You can't take a dedication in a class you are already in, and besides, there is already a level 8 Feat "Second Ally" that grants you another ally, but it can't be the same as the first.

Shield Paragon increasing the shield's HP and BT is great, it that is not what stops damage to you! That's why I increased the Hardness through divine power in several feats. But the results don't stack. The Shield ally gives you +2 Hardness. If you take the Shield of Grace feat, it increases TO +4, not BY +4. And if you take Shield Paragon, it increases from whatever it was before (either +2 or +4) TO +6 There is no way to get +10 or +14!

Diseases, like all afflictions, will scale along with the characters so while the Champion himself may get a small bonus and Juggernaut gives him Success = crit success at 9th level, that doesn't help others. But I think I will change things a bit... Divine Health will now apply the stated benefits to poison saves as well as disease. That will only help from level 4-9 because Juggernaut will then kick in for all Fort saves, but it's a bit of a buff. I seldom if ever have inflicted my players with diseases, it just seems anti-heroic to me (stay home and rest to recover instead of going out and adventuring, but at least poison can come from creature attacks, etc). Characters will have to wait till 12th level to get Affliction Mercy.

The long string of Blade feats that just gives additional options but no tangible benefits for the character seemed rather strange to me. So I increased the number of Runes along with giving a wider array of options. You could simply buy the runes by 10th or 20th level anyways, so giving a few more with the feats doesn't seems game breaking.

Edit to add: The above link now has the changes above


The dedication part was to underline that the new talents are too juicy that dedications are crap if compared to them.

So gogo new talents with 2 divine allies and forget anything else.

With +10 hardness you could even go with an indestructible shield, and have an endless shield with 25 dmg absorption. Nonsense.

About the divine health would be something useless nobody will take, as the current one. Aura of courage is too game broken if compared to any other champion feat lvl 4.

So whatever the modifies, since disease are not that frequent and you have master saving by lvl 9, nobody is going to take it.

About the sword one, you have to test it out.

You forgot to answer about the goblin trait.


To let you better understand the hardness issues, imagine to fight a balor, lvl 20 epic monster whose attack deals 4d8+1d6 +17

4x8=20 average dmg
1d6=4 average dmg
17 flat damage

Tot= 41 dmg

30 dmg reduction

11 dmg on hit.

On a 300/350 hp pool.

And a champion has 2 blocks per round.

In my opinion, it is a little bit too much to nerf by 50% the received.

Remember that a shield is supposed to resist something like 4 or 5 hit ( compare sturdy shields with monsters of the same lvl ) before reach ing the broken thresold.

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K1 wrote:


Remember that a shield is supposed to resist something like 4 or 5 hit ( compare sturdy shields with monsters of the same lvl ) before reach ing the broken thresold.

That is exactly what I don't want! Fighters shouldn't have to break out a portable forge after every battle, or carry a golf bag full of shields. I want a good shield to last a whole adventure, or at least most of it. That's why I made the change that if damage bypasses the Hardness you mark 1 point off it's Hit Points, not the remaining damage. That only gets passed on to the player. And a shield may get dented and beaten up, but it can still block hits even after it is "Broken". Broken just reduces the AC bonus by 1 for the dents. Even a wooden shield should be able to last for a few hits IMO.


Then i suggest you to remove the mechanic itself.

The fact that during a combat you can't force your shield that much is part of the gameplay.

Within a party at least 1 character specialized in crafting could be useful ( especially in this version where everybody has a shield ) for magic crafts and repair. The only thing I don't really like is that I can't repair my own stuff with 10 base int.

Or to say it better, it could require many attempts if compared to a wizard.

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K1 wrote:

Then i suggest you to remove the mechanic itself.

The fact that during a combat you can't force your shield that much is part of the gameplay.

Within a party at least 1 character specialized in crafting could be useful ( especially in this version where everybody has a shield ) for magic crafts and repair. The only thing I don't really like is that I can't repair my own stuff with 10 base int.

Or to say it better, it could require many attempts if compared to a wizard.

Remove what mechanic? You mean shields being damaged in order to stop damage to the character? That's a pretty major part of PF2 to just remove completely. How would you do it, just say "It stops damage up to it's Hardness, any damage over that goes to the character", the end? I'd have to really think about such a big change, but I guess it would be possible...


Samurai wrote:
K1 wrote:

Then i suggest you to remove the mechanic itself.

The fact that during a combat you can't force your shield that much is part of the gameplay.

Within a party at least 1 character specialized in crafting could be useful ( especially in this version where everybody has a shield ) for magic crafts and repair. The only thing I don't really like is that I can't repair my own stuff with 10 base int.

Or to say it better, it could require many attempts if compared to a wizard.

Remove what mechanic? You mean shields being damaged in order to stop damage to the character? That's a pretty major part of PF2 to just remove completely. How would you do it, just say "It stops damage up to it's Hardness, any damage over that goes to the character", the end? I'd have to really think about such a big change, but I guess it would be possible...

I probably expressed myself not in the best way.

What I wanted to say is that if you pump shields too much, then would be easier to remove the dmg on shield.

If a fight lasts for 10 rounds and your shield reaches the BT after 3 rounds ( 5/6 blocks ), then it is totally fine.

It did his job.

The point is that reaching the BT is part of how the game is supposed to work.

And because of that, if the shield doesn't break regardless the number of blocks, or if the shield simply survives all the encounters without reaching the BT, the would be simply to remove HP and BT and just use hardness.

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K1 wrote:
Samurai wrote:
K1 wrote:

Then i suggest you to remove the mechanic itself.

The fact that during a combat you can't force your shield that much is part of the gameplay.

Within a party at least 1 character specialized in crafting could be useful ( especially in this version where everybody has a shield ) for magic crafts and repair. The only thing I don't really like is that I can't repair my own stuff with 10 base int.

Or to say it better, it could require many attempts if compared to a wizard.

Remove what mechanic? You mean shields being damaged in order to stop damage to the character? That's a pretty major part of PF2 to just remove completely. How would you do it, just say "It stops damage up to it's Hardness, any damage over that goes to the character", the end? I'd have to really think about such a big change, but I guess it would be possible...

I probably expressed myself not in the best way.

What I wanted to say is that if you pump shields too much, then would be easier to remove the dmg on shield.

If a fight lasts for 10 rounds and your shield reaches the BT after 3 rounds ( 5/6 blocks ), then it is totally fine.

It did his job.

The point is that reaching the BT is part of how the game is supposed to work.

And because of that, if the shield doesn't break regardless the number of blocks, or if the shield simply survives all the encounters without reaching the BT, the would be simply to remove HP and BT and just use hardness.

But the thing is you can't just think of the effects during 1 combat. A party of adventurers might go many days or weeks with little or no downtime to go buy new shields and other equipment. If their shields are destroyed after a few rounds of the very first fight in a campaign, then they will need to buy (and carry with them) a dozen shields the next time they are in a town. I don't want a whole "golf bag of shields", just make them tough enough to survive 3-4 entire combats so they can repair them when they rest if needed. With my "remove 1 HP per damage breach", a bucker will have 3 solid hits before dropping it's AC bonus, and then 3 more before it is destroyed. All of that could happen in 1 combat, but it's not too likely. The wooden shield could go 6, then 6 more, and the metal can go 10 and then 10 more. Both of those are much better and should last a whole day's worth of combats, or close to it. Magical shields increase it even further, so you could go most or all of a book in an adventure path and then repair or replace it during downtime. That is what I'm going for.

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Ok, I have now incorporated the official Errata in the main document. I used most of the official changes, there were just a few I disagreed with, the main one being that a thrown weapon becomes a ranged weapon. (what happens to the runes and other abilities then?), so I said that while it is making a ranged attack, it is still a melee weapon and retains all the effects it normally has including any runes and a Thief's Dex to damage.

I wrote all the official changers in green ink so people can see at a glace what is official and what is not.

Samurai's Pathfinder 2e changes with incorporated Errata


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Samurai wrote:
But the thing is you can't just think of the effects during 1 combat. A party of adventurers might go many days or weeks with little or no downtime to go buy new shields and other equipment. If their shields are destroyed after a few rounds of the very first fight in a campaign, then they will need to buy (and carry with them) a dozen shields the next time they are in a town. I don't want a whole "golf bag of shields", just make them tough enough to survive 3-4 entire combats so they can repair them...

If you are only repairing in downtime, once an adventure, why repair at all? Although your system makes sense for nonmagical shields as you described. But maybe just say magic shields don't need to track HP. The extra hardness is still worth upgrading your magic shield too, and your change would open up the "paper" shields like Arrow Catcher to have a good niche again, which is a plus.

The original design idea is repairing shields between every combat. Taking the classic DnD group, the wizard and cleric are resting to refocus and the rogue is probably looting and searching for hidden doors. They decided to give the fighter something to do during that after-combat time too, which is repair. I do understand houseruling that, because with a shield constantly breaking and being repaired I'm picturing your poor shield as being mostly duct tape by the end of an adventure. Kind of a silly, minor verisimilitude point.

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BellyBeard wrote:
Samurai wrote:
But the thing is you can't just think of the effects during 1 combat. A party of adventurers might go many days or weeks with little or no downtime to go buy new shields and other equipment. If their shields are destroyed after a few rounds of the very first fight in a campaign, then they will need to buy (and carry with them) a dozen shields the next time they are in a town. I don't want a whole "golf bag of shields", just make them tough enough to survive 3-4 entire combats so they can repair them...

If you are only repairing in downtime, once an adventure, why repair at all? Although your system makes sense for nonmagical shields as you described. But maybe just say magic shields don't need to track HP. The extra hardness is still worth upgrading your magic shield too, and your change would open up the "paper" shields like Arrow Catcher to have a good niche again, which is a plus.

The original design idea is repairing shields between every combat. Taking the classic DnD group, the wizard and cleric are resting to refocus and the rogue is probably looting and searching for hidden doors. They decided to give the fighter something to do during that after-combat time too, which is repair. I do understand houseruling that, because with a shield constantly breaking and being repaired I'm picturing your poor shield as being mostly duct tape by the end of an adventure. Kind of a silly, minor verisimilitude point.

Well, they gave magic shields hit points and break thresholds, so I don't see a reason to make new rules for magic shields than non-magic ones.

There are 2 things in my rules that can help fix Arrow Catching shields and other weak magic shields: First, the "lose 1 hit point per breach" rule, and second, the "You can use sturdy shields instead of an ordinary steel shield to create specific magic shields, just add the cost of the sturdy shield and replace the base statistics". Even if someone didn't want to use the 1st rule above, the 2nd would help too.

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I've made a few more slight changes and the file is updated. The biggest change is adding the Weapon Mastery ability at 17th level for all classes that don't already have Master proficiency in their class's weapons. This includes the Alchemist, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard. Reading the debates going on in the Errata thread convinced me this needs to be done. All the other classes get it much sooner: Fighters, Barbarians, Champions, Monks, Rangers, and Rogues all get it at 13th level, and the Fighters ever get 1 weapon group up to Legendary. To keeps the math closer (since it is supposed to be so tightly balanced), I think everyone else needs to eventually get to Master too. Level 17 seemed like a fair place to do it for classes not focused on melee attacks.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

So with your newest rule, you are asserting that as a fighter reaches the pinnacle of their martial fighting ability, being trained with all weapons, they will discover that if they don't pick up the weapon type they have specialized (one group, say bows for an example) that when they pick up a staff to fight a scholarly mage, the mage will be as good at fighting with such a weapon as the legendary fighter?

Honestly that sounds off to me. I might make an exception for bomb throwing for an alchemist, or maybe even a warpriest's patron's favored weapon, but that would potentially create an awfully strong pressure on them to have to use that weapon, which seems contrary to much of P2's design goals, and might stifle character concepts at the upper levels. Honestly for bomber alchemists, I don't see that as as big an issue, as presumably bombs are a big part of bomber alchemists, and having them be practically as good as a fighter who didn't focus on such thrown things seems fine for me, since it is definitely a niche.

I'd strongly consider you reconsider the new rule with that in mind, but I enjoyed reading through your rules.

As to your shield rules, they do simplify things, although they also make it nearly impossible to even break a shield unless they never ever spent a moment to repair their shield. It also is perhaps a little odd that damaging a shield with a weapon does less than the minimum damage an item takes when it gets damaged from a crit fail on a repair roll. (p244 in crb) Have you considered making damage to shield equal damage taken divided by hardness, min 1 if damage exceeds hardness? I think Bellybeard was merely pointing out that ticking 1hp off at a time, many of the magic shield should never get close to being broken state since it only takes 10 minutes in many cases to fix a shield in between battles.

With respect to your update on Rough Rider, are you aware of the fact that technically speaking giving your wolf animal companion the mount trait won't help it for some time, since the wolf is small and thereby the goblin can't ride it, as it is the same size as the rider?

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Loreguard wrote:

So with your newest rule, you are asserting that as a fighter reaches the pinnacle of their martial fighting ability, being trained with all weapons, they will discover that if they don't pick up the weapon type they have specialized (one group, say bows for an example) that when they pick up a staff to fight a scholarly mage, the mage will be as good at fighting with such a weapon as the legendary fighter?

Honestly that sounds off to me. I might make an exception for bomb throwing for an alchemist, or maybe even a warpriest's patron's favored weapon, but that would potentially create an awfully strong pressure on them to have to use that weapon, which seems contrary to much of P2's design goals, and might stifle character concepts at the upper levels. Honestly for bomber alchemists, I don't see that as as big an issue, as presumably bombs are a big part of bomber alchemists, and having them be practically as good as a fighter who didn't focus on such thrown things seems fine for me, since it is definitely a niche.

I'd strongly consider you reconsider the new rule with that in mind, but I enjoyed reading through your rules.

As to your shield rules, they do simplify things, although they also make it nearly impossible to even break a shield unless they never ever spent a moment to repair their shield. It also is perhaps a little odd that damaging a shield with a weapon does less than the minimum damage an item takes when it gets damaged from a crit fail on a repair roll. (p244 in crb) Have you considered making damage to shield equal damage taken divided by hardness, min 1 if damage exceeds hardness? I think Bellybeard was merely pointing out that ticking 1hp off at a time, many of the magic shield should never get close to being broken state since it only takes 10 minutes in many cases to fix a shield in between battles.

With respect to your update on Rough Rider, are you aware of the fact that technically speaking giving your wolf animal companion the mount trait won't help it for some time,...

Thank you for your reply! (I read and consider every one I get and they help me refine the changes!)

For 90% of their careers, the Fighter is clearly ahead at melee attacks. It's only by 17th level, after decades of using the staff, that the Wizards finally gets to Master. And the Fighter has already been there since 13th level. As you pointed out, many of the classes have their own areas of expertise, and I think they should eventually get to Master too. The Fighter goes to Legendary in most weapons just 2 levels later at 19th. Do you think it would be better to push the new Weapon Mastery for the caster-type classes to a 19th level ability? I chose 17th because many of them don't get a whole lot at 17th level and they already get a lot at 19th.

For the Shields, they are supposed to be hard to break, especially the magic ones. Players hate when a magic item they are invested in is destroyed. I think that's why Paizo took out the sundering rules from 1e. Not sure why they left shields like wet paper towels. It's interesting that there is no method to damage or destroy armor in battle in 2e that I can see.

For the repair critical failure, it specifically say's the damage is reduced by the shield's Hardness, so I would treat it just like an attack, reduced the 2d6 damage by the Hardness and if there is any left, reduce the hit points by 1. If the Hardness stops it all, no harm done. But to be on the safe side, they should make repairs before they are down to 1 hit point left...

On Goblin Rough Riders, as funny as the mental image of a small Goblin riding a feral chihuahua like a mini-bike is, I would rule they need to wait until the wolf is medium-sized (get's the mature animal upgrade). I'll make a note about that in the feat. Edit: Changes added, including changes to repaired shields and a note in Rough Rider!


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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Thanks for the response. I certainly can appreciate trying to fill in what feels like a hole in one of the higher levels, but I would probably otherwise feel better about the classes getting master at 19th as the fighters have stepped up to legendary in normal weapons. Looking closer I see that fighters advance their armor proficiency at 17th, so that would be relevant advancement when comparing combat capabilities between them. So, I'm still probably on a push to the 19th side of things if you are going to do it, but I'm far less of the 'are you crazy' perspective from my first reaction. If you'd not done all the other modifications to alchemists (some of which I likes, others not so much) I'd be all for giving bombers master in bombs at 17, and potentially mutagenists master in unarmed attacks around 17th as an option.

As for repair, thanks for pointing out that hardness affects the damage. It clearly states that and I honestly just didn't have it sink in. I still kind of wished repairing a dinged wooden buckler didn't seem like something that could easily turn into a pile of kindling. But your concept of having the shield lose 1hp instead if it exceeds the hardness would generally solve that. Have to admit, it doesn't comletely sit right with me, but I'll give you that it is relatively simple, and makes shields being broken a distant possibility if left untreated.

As far as being able to have a goblin character take the rough-rider feat and use it for a companion, and be able to actually ride the creature. My gut reaction is to say, let the goblin upgrade the mount to a Medium size (but without the mechanical attribute benefits of larger size) at first level. When they get high enough level where the mount would have gained its size normally, allow the mechanical benefits to kick in.

I'd probably say during those first levels, the animal was a scrawny version of the larger size (almost small size), until they get the upgrade, at which point it matures into a healthy more mid-range medium creature sized specimen.

It seems peculiar, concept-wise, to have to buy a medium sized goblin dog to ride, while having a small goblin dog as your companion creature for several levels, before you can sell the bought goblin dog and begin riding your companion.


Samurai, really enjoying the changes you're making and have applied some to my own campaign.

Would it be possible to highlight your most recent additions to the document with every update? Perhaps have them in a different colour to make them easier to spot.

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