Paladin of Erastil


Advice


So I know that champions can use any martial weapons, but I just wanted to double check that it really does not make much sense for a Paladin of Erastil to carry a longbow because even with ranged reprisal, they will need to be within 15ft of their target and thus be taking a -2 penalty to their attack rolls due to volley, right?

I am sure an eventual point-blank shot-like feat will be released (probably a second or fourth level feat) that allows them to ignore volley when making retributive strikes, but for now, a ranged paladin of Erastil is much better off with a shortbow, right?


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point blank already exists...1st level fighter feat...paladin can take it in 4th level earliest


Debelinho wrote:

point blank already exists...1st level fighter feat...paladin can take it in 4th level earliest

Fighter dedication is a heavy tax for a paladin.


So I guess as far as the CRB is concerned a Paladin of Erastil probably uses a shortbow for most of their career, unless they MC fighter, which hurts at level 2, gives you the ability to use your deity's favored weapon with your own class abilities at level 4, and then has no good MC feat for you to take again at level 6, locking you out of any other MC until atleast level 10.

At this point the Paladin of Adabar is a much more mechanically viable character than the paladin of Erastil, which is not a great thing for Golarion lore, but hopefully will get corrected soon with a 1st or 2nd level Champion class feat or a specific Erastil centered class archetype similar to the PF1 hinterlander prestige class.


How much of a problem is it to use a Longbow wherever the situation permits and otherwise just use melee weapons? Mechanical problem or roleplay issues?

While the cleric seems to be bound to his deities fav weapon by weapon skill and crit specialisation I can see no such thing for the champion.


Ubertron_X wrote:

How much of a problem is it to use a Longbow wherever the situation permits and otherwise just use melee weapons? Mechanical problem or roleplay issues?

While the cleric seems to be bound to his deities fav weapon by weapon skill and crit specialisation I can see no such thing for the champion.

True. Champs are bound to a weapon for fishing for crit specializations, but it's the weapon they make their divine bond, so it doesn't necessarily need to be their deity's weapon, and not all champions will even have that option.

I don't think there is any real mechanical downside, aside from having to pay to enchant two weapons versus one.
It seems like it's mostly a flavor conceit, being the divinely appointed arbiter of a god's will, being given a tool to make that will known by laying a holy slap upside Evil's head ... but not being able to do it with the weapon your deity is known for so you whip down to the shop and buy a teenier version.

I was going to suggest Shifting etched onto the weapon could help but sadly it only works on melee.


I agree it is largely a flavor conceit for now, but it does “feel” like the paladin of erastil was thrown a bone with the ranged reprisal feat, only to realize that feat doesn’t really help them because the longbow is a bad weapon to use within 30ft. Meanwhile the Paladin of Abadar is getting full benefit from ranged reprisal and deification weapon.

Erastil just doesn’t have much to offer paladins yet. Since a fair number of fighter feats show up on other lists, I am hopeful that something like point blank shows up for paladins of Erastil by the first gods book.


Unicore wrote:
I agree it is largely a flavor conceit for now, but it does “feel” like the paladin of erastil was thrown a bone with the ranged reprisal feat, only to realize that feat doesn’t really help them because the longbow is a bad weapon to use within 30ft. Meanwhile the Paladin of Abadar is getting full benefit from ranged reprisal and deification weapon.

Thematically yes, and in regards to this class feature also yes, but have you also noted that the longbow has a reload of 0, while the crossbow has a reload of 1? This means that the Paladin of Abadar will very often not be able to use his ranged reprisal because his crossbow simply isn't loaded...

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm just beginning to try out a paladin of Abadar, and you do have to be very careful with your reloads. Ideally, a mid-battle round sequence would be reload/fire/reload, but that's only if you're already near the allies you want to protect with a reaction. I think I'd favor not firing during my turn in order to be ready to use retributive strike. Although I believe you can just use your reaction without firing, should the need arise?


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There may also be a Erastil-specific feat in the eventual Gods and Magic book that makes this more workable as well. Something along the lines of Point Blank Shot, or perhaps the ability to strike outside the volley range.


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Paladin of Ababar multiclassing into ranger for crossbow feats?

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Joey Cote wrote:

Paladin of Ababar multiclassing into ranger for crossbow feats?

Some feats seem worthwhile, whereas others interfere with the reloading cycle and being ready for a retributive strike.

  • Dedication: Hunt Prey is fine as an opening action when your crossbow is already loaded, or any turn where you don't need to immediately reload.
  • Crossbow Ace: Requires no extra actions, grants a bonus to damage after hunting or interacting to reload. This bonus persists until an attack is made or the end of your next turn, so can amplify the damage of your Retributive Strikes.
  • Monster Hunter: Grants a free Recall Knowledge check after Hunting a target, and a team bonus to hit if you succeed. Only as useful as your knowledge skills and then only if you manage to Hunt in a turn, so probably of lesser value when mixed with crossbows.
  • Hunter's Aim: Costs two actions to make a strike, and then requires the target to already be Hunted. Wouldn't easily fit in a reload-fire-reload sequence.
  • Monster Warden: Increases bonuses from Monster Hunter, but still situational due to not always being able to Hunt while reloading.
  • Quick Draw: Could be useful in general, but you may have better feats to take? Drawing and striking with a crossbow would require it to be loaded already, probably better to keep it at the ready if reasonable.
  • Far Shot: Long range combat isn't what a Paladin wants to do, and this is also at the same level as...
  • Running Reload: This is the feat that actually helps with action economy. Allows you to reload while moving into good positions for Retributive Strike's 15-foot range, which I imagine would enable more uses of the ability.
  • Favored Enemy: Also a 4th-level feat, allows you one free Hunt Prey upon rolling initiative. Helps with the Monster Hunter line a little therefore, but I'd feel this is of lower use as well for a crossbow-toting Paladin.

    I'll stop at 4th-level feats, as 6th-level or higher feats would require a level 12+ Paladin. At that level, Skirmish Strike seems good for further mobility, whereas Deadly Aim again requires a Hunted target. Penetrating Shot at level 20 seems good, but again requires Hunting.

    I think I would go with Dedication at 2nd, Crossbow Ace for the extra damage at 4th, and then maybe skip a Ranger feat at 6th but pick up Running Reload at 8th. Seems worthwhile to me, might have to reroll from a Goblin in order to actually have a wisdom score!


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    Unicore wrote:


    Fighter dedication is a heavy tax for a paladin.

    I feel like this is the main issue and it extends way beyond longbow paladins.

    Fighter dedication is absolute garbage for anyone who's already martial proficient. I really hope a future book prints an alternate multiclass dedication for them for characters who already have martial proficiency.


    Unicore wrote:
    then has no good MC feat for you to take again at level 6

    Exacting Strike and Assisting Shot aren't bad. Reactive Shield or Opportunist give you a reaction you can use in those times ranged reprisal doesn't trigger [you can wear a buckler for a shield and a Free-Hand weapon for a melee weapon all while using a bow]: if you're fighting a solo monster, for instance, and it attacks the paladin it lets your reaction be used that round.


    graystone wrote:
    Unicore wrote:
    then has no good MC feat for you to take again at level 6
    Exacting Strike and Assisting Shot aren't bad. Reactive Shield or Opportunist give you a reaction you can use in those times ranged reprisal doesn't trigger [you can wear a buckler for a shield and a Free-Hand weapon for a melee weapon all while using a bow]: if you're fighting a solo monster, for instance, and it attacks the paladin it lets your reaction be used that round.

    Exacting strike is not a terrible feat, but it pretty much requires that the paladin is expecting mostly to be making 3 attacks each round to be worth using. Which isn't a bad idea with a bow, but it requires your allies to want to stay close. It is also down trading a level 6 feat for a level 1 feat, and meaning that you have pretty much given up a level 2, level 4 and level 6 champion feats to gain 2 level 1 fighter feats, one great character defining feat, and one situationally ok feat. To me, that feels like a pretty heavy cost to be able to functionally use the weapon of your deity. (Note: Even if you just never take another fighter feat, you have still dropped a level 2 and a level 4 class feat for one level 1 feat and a skill training. I think it is reasonable to hope for/request that something opens up to make this less costly by the time of the first gods book, if not earlier.)

    In theory, I really want to like assisting shot and think it makes an exceptional character build combined with the Human cooperative nature feat...but Assisting Shot is a difficult feat to justify right now because Aid is not very well defined as an action and has clearly been disrupted by changes since the playtest. Outside of the Assisting shot feat, there is no mention anywhere else in the book that a character can't aid with a ranged attack without this feat, AND because the Assisting shot is a regular action and not a reaction, using it incurs the multi-attack penalty for the round, whereas a regular aid effort would not, because it is a reaction. At this point in the game, the aid mechanic is pretty much "work this out with your GM before even thinking about taking any feats related to it" because the feat is either entirely unnecessary, or particularly punishing if required, but there is another thread in the rules section for discussing that more if you want to.


    Unicore: my point is that there ARE "good MC feat for you to take again at level 6". If you feel they aren't good enough, that's fine. If you really dislike those 4 options, then you aren't required to finish out the multiclass

    I also don't disagree that the dedication gets you only a skill and could be better: that's just a side-affect of picking a multiclass so close to your main. Monk isn't too exciting either if you're not planning on punching things with your fist. And a fighter could say that it costs quite a bit to get lay on hands as the champion deduction doesn't get you much. Non-caster archetype dedications aren't too exciting.


    graystone wrote:

    Unicore: my point is that there ARE "good MC feat for you to take again at level 6". If you feel they aren't good enough, that's fine. If you really dislike those 4 options, then you aren't required to finish out the multiclass

    I also don't disagree that the dedication gets you only a skill and could be better: that's just a side-affect of picking a multiclass so close to your main. Monk isn't too exciting either if you're not planning on punching things with your fist. And a fighter could say that it costs quite a bit to get lay on hands as the champion deduction doesn't get you much. Non-caster archetype dedications aren't too exciting.

    That is why my argument is that champions need more support tied directly to their own class, not expecting them to MC to have the feel of their their deity. RIght now, the Paladin of Erastil is not functionally a longbow using ranged paladin, and that is something that could be fixed relatively easily with a new class feat allowing them to use their retributive strike with a long bow.


    Unicore wrote:
    graystone wrote:

    Unicore: my point is that there ARE "good MC feat for you to take again at level 6". If you feel they aren't good enough, that's fine. If you really dislike those 4 options, then you aren't required to finish out the multiclass

    I also don't disagree that the dedication gets you only a skill and could be better: that's just a side-affect of picking a multiclass so close to your main. Monk isn't too exciting either if you're not planning on punching things with your fist. And a fighter could say that it costs quite a bit to get lay on hands as the champion deduction doesn't get you much. Non-caster archetype dedications aren't too exciting.

    That is why my argument is that champions need more support tied directly to their own class, not expecting them to MC to have the feel of their their deity. RIght now, the Paladin of Erastil is not functionally a longbow using ranged paladin, and that is something that could be fixed relatively easily with a new class feat allowing them to use their retributive strike with a long bow.

    I feel like you still get plenty of that flavor still if you use a transforming weapon and use the longbow form just when it makes sense. You could also just use a shortbow and pretend that its a longbow. We are all playing pretend here.


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    Unicore wrote:
    graystone wrote:

    Unicore: my point is that there ARE "good MC feat for you to take again at level 6". If you feel they aren't good enough, that's fine. If you really dislike those 4 options, then you aren't required to finish out the multiclass

    I also don't disagree that the dedication gets you only a skill and could be better: that's just a side-affect of picking a multiclass so close to your main. Monk isn't too exciting either if you're not planning on punching things with your fist. And a fighter could say that it costs quite a bit to get lay on hands as the champion deduction doesn't get you much. Non-caster archetype dedications aren't too exciting.

    That is why my argument is that champions need more support tied directly to their own class, not expecting them to MC to have the feel of their their deity. RIght now, the Paladin of Erastil is not functionally a longbow using ranged paladin, and that is something that could be fixed relatively easily with a new class feat allowing them to use their retributive strike with a long bow.

    That's a pretty big ask IMO as it's literally only Erastil followers and only with their optional ranged reprisal. I'd expect that kind of support later instead of sooner as you're playing against type [using a weapon that requires dex on the heavy armor class]. And even without the support, a -2 on a non-MAP attack is far from non-functional.


    graystone wrote:
    Unicore wrote:
    graystone wrote:

    Unicore: my point is that there ARE "good MC feat for you to take again at level 6". If you feel they aren't good enough, that's fine. If you really dislike those 4 options, then you aren't required to finish out the multiclass

    I also don't disagree that the dedication gets you only a skill and could be better: that's just a side-affect of picking a multiclass so close to your main. Monk isn't too exciting either if you're not planning on punching things with your fist. And a fighter could say that it costs quite a bit to get lay on hands as the champion deduction doesn't get you much. Non-caster archetype dedications aren't too exciting.

    That is why my argument is that champions need more support tied directly to their own class, not expecting them to MC to have the feel of their their deity. RIght now, the Paladin of Erastil is not functionally a longbow using ranged paladin, and that is something that could be fixed relatively easily with a new class feat allowing them to use their retributive strike with a long bow.
    That's a pretty big ask IMO as it's literally only Erastil followers and only with their optional ranged reprisal. I'd expect that kind of support later instead of sooner as you're playing against type [using a weapon that requires dex on the heavy armor class]. And even without the support, a -2 on a non-MAP attack is far from non-functional.

    The problem is that a fighter MCing into cleric makes a much better champion of Erastil than a Champion and has a lot of feat support for doing the ranged protector role, just as a monk MCing into cleric makes a much better champion of Irori. Obviously the design of the champion class does include focusing on a Dexterity first build, and the class gets legendary in light armor as well.


    Excaliburproxy wrote:


    I feel like you still get plenty of that flavor still if you use a transforming weapon and use the longbow form just when it makes sense. You could also just use a shortbow and pretend that its a longbow. We are all playing pretend here.

    Is there a Transforming weapon in PF2?

    Also, my top choice for a "fix" would have been for Erastil's favored weapon to be the "bow" and include both short and long bows. When I GM, that is probably how I will handle it.


    Unicore wrote:
    The problem is that a fighter MCing into cleric makes a much better champion of Erastil than a Champion

    That depends: is hitting with a bow what makes you a better champion? To me, you're just as protective as the resistance you pass out is the same.

    Unicore wrote:
    has a lot of feat support for doing the ranged protector role

    It does? What fighter feat specifically enhanced you as a protector? Not a better weapon user, but a better protector? Myself, I can't think of a single fighter feat that improves a ranged weapon users ability to protect others. If it's all about killing something quicker with a weapon, then yeah fighter is the way to go but that IMO isn't a protector.

    Unicore wrote:
    just as a monk MCing into cleric makes a much better champion of Irori.

    You're going to have to give me your vision of what you think a champion of Irori is: for myself, there's a lot more to a champion than hitting someone.

    Unicore wrote:
    Obviously the design of the champion class does include focusing on a Dexterity first build, and the class gets legendary in light armor as well.

    There is room in the design for it but it's not the focus of the class as a whole: the wizard class can be focused on str and heavy armor but that too isn't the main focus of the class and I wouldn't expect support for it to come out quickly either.

    Unicore wrote:
    Is there a Transforming weapon in PF2?

    They have shifting, that allows you to change a melee weapon into another melee weapon...


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    The idea that a crossbow is a better champion weapon than a longbow is so hyperbolic that it borders on parody. Even if you do nothing to address the volley issue, with a longbow you fight more or less like a Warpriest. With a crossbow, you fight like a character that's permanently Slowed 2, and that's on the turns when things go as well as possible.


    Graystone wrote:
    They have shifting, that allows you to change a melee weapon into another melee weapon...

    Perhaps a reasonable homebrew fix would be to make a similar rune, but for ranged? Or create a bow like the Fighter's Fork, swapping between modes as a shortbow and longbow.


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    Perpdepog wrote:
    Graystone wrote:
    They have shifting, that allows you to change a melee weapon into another melee weapon...
    Perhaps a reasonable homebrew fix would be to make a similar rune, but for ranged? Or create a bow like the Fighter's Fork, swapping between modes as a shortbow and longbow.

    Honestly, there is a MUCH better fix that breaks no rules: buy a really big shortbow and call it a 'longbow': done. Unless I'm missing something, there is nothing tied to a champions favored weapon that applies to a longbow so if volley is gamebreaking to someone then the shortbow works just fine.

    I'd be more sympathetic if there was more tied into the favored weapon mechanically but this is all flavor related and IMO that's much easier to play with than mechanics. If you want to justify it, just say it's the longbow you grew up using but now that you matured it's smaller than normal: ie used shortbow stats.: done. I don't think Erastil will mind. ;)


    graystone wrote:
    Perpdepog wrote:
    Graystone wrote:
    They have shifting, that allows you to change a melee weapon into another melee weapon...
    Perhaps a reasonable homebrew fix would be to make a similar rune, but for ranged? Or create a bow like the Fighter's Fork, swapping between modes as a shortbow and longbow.

    Honestly, there is a MUCH better fix that breaks no rules: buy a really big shortbow and call it a 'longbow': done. Unless I'm missing something, there is nothing tied to a champions favored weapon that applies to a longbow so if volley is gamebreaking to someone then the shortbow works just fine.

    I'd be more sympathetic if there was more tied into the favored weapon mechanically but this is all flavor related and IMO that's much easier to play with than mechanics. If you want to justify it, just say it's the longbow you grew up using but now that you matured it's smaller than normal: ie used shortbow stats.: done. I don't think Erastil will mind. ;)

    Iunno. I hear Erastil can be a pretty cranky god sometimes, and you know how exacting those lawful deities can be when it comes to the details of things like bow stave length :P.


    Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    Joyd wrote:
    The idea that a crossbow is a better champion weapon than a longbow is so hyperbolic that it borders on parody. Even if you do nothing to address the volley issue, with a longbow you fight more or less like a Warpriest. With a crossbow, you fight like a character that's permanently Slowed 2, and that's on the turns when things go as well as possible.

    Speaking of hyperbole...


    Unicore wrote:
    Excaliburproxy wrote:


    I feel like you still get plenty of that flavor still if you use a transforming weapon and use the longbow form just when it makes sense. You could also just use a shortbow and pretend that its a longbow. We are all playing pretend here.

    Is there a Transforming weapon in PF2?

    Also, my top choice for a "fix" would have been for Erastil's favored weapon to be the "bow" and include both short and long bows. When I GM, that is probably how I will handle it.

    You fix seems pretty reasonable, honestly. And yeah: Gravestone is right that I meant shifting. I was unaware that shifting was limited to melee weapons, though.

    Here is a possible alternate house rule weapon fix: have blade ally grant the equivalent of point blank shot rather than granting disrupting, ghost touch, returning, or shifting.


    Fumarole wrote:
    Joyd wrote:
    The idea that a crossbow is a better champion weapon than a longbow is so hyperbolic that it borders on parody. Even if you do nothing to address the volley issue, with a longbow you fight more or less like a Warpriest. With a crossbow, you fight like a character that's permanently Slowed 2, and that's on the turns when things go as well as possible.
    Speaking of hyperbole...

    Not so much: longbow is a better weapon than the crossbow by design: the Dev's have said as much [simple vs martial weapon]. -2 to hit with reload 0 if far better than normal to hit with reload of 1: being able to use a reaction at -2 is better than not being able to use that reaction because it's not reloaded. Reloads of 1+ eat up 1/2 your actions: it's just a fact unless you snag out of class feats but that's what you can do for the longbow too.


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    There should be 'swap an ability' options.

    Let a paladin of Erastil get Point Blank Shot for free, and lose the ability to shield block. After all, if you're two-handing a bow, you're not going to raise a shield.

    Paladins of Irori could get some unarmored defense and unarmed offense stuff for free, and lose weapon and armor proficiencies.

    Stuff like that.


    RangerWickett wrote:
    After all, if you're two-handing a bow, you're not going to raise a shield.

    Why not? Bucklers exist and are usable with a longbow.


    You can 'raise a shield' while wielding a two-handed weapon?

    I did not know that, and it feels very off.


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    RangerWickett wrote:

    You can 'raise a shield' while wielding a two-handed weapon?

    I did not know that, and it feels very off.

    Bows are not 2-handed, they are 1+. So you can have a buckler strapped to your reloading/drawing hand, at least I don't see anything that would prevent it as the only requirement is a free hand and the buckler explicitly leaves the hand free. You are correct that they wouldn't be usable with normal 2-handers, at least not without special abilities.

    Edit:
    Or at least not easily. However, that said, im wondering, can a 2-handed warrior do something like strike->release hand->raise shield? Maybe they can be used with 2-handers after all.


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    RangerWickett wrote:

    You can 'raise a shield' while wielding a two-handed weapon?

    I did not know that, and it feels very off.

    Bows are actually a "1+"-handed weapon. You need your off-hand free to fire but it isn't actually using a weapon. When you are using a buckler, that hand is actually considered "free" but you can't use that hand to hold a weapon. As such, it is actually a decent off-hand weapon with a boss or spikes (which I think are also compatible with bucklers). It is also maybe a possible answer to OP's Longbow-in-Melee woes.

    Would you find it off if a character fired a bow twice and then raised their buckled-on shield?


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    I'd find it off if that archer was then able to shoot an arrow with Retributive Strike as a reaction.


    RangerWickett wrote:
    I'd find it off if that archer was then able to shoot an arrow with Retributive Strike as a reaction.

    But bow paladins have the power of god and anime on their side.


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    RangerWickett wrote:
    I'd find it off if that archer was then able to shoot an arrow with Retributive Strike as a reaction.

    You've never watched Captain America bounce a shield off a bad guys forehead, catch it, hit someone with thor's hammer and still manage to block an attack with that shield...?

    Buckler: "You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand."

    Hands: "A few items, such as a longbow, list 1+ for its Hands entry. You can hold a weapon with a 1+ entry in one hand, but the process of shooting it requires using a second to retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow. This means you can do things with your free hand while holding the bow without changing your grip, but the other hand must be free when you shoot. To properly wield a 1+ weapon, you must hold it in one hand and also have a hand free."

    Both the buckler's Raise Shield and the bow require a free hand so everything is fine rules-wise.


    graystone wrote:
    RangerWickett wrote:
    I'd find it off if that archer was then able to shoot an arrow with Retributive Strike as a reaction.

    You've never watched Captain America bounce a shield off a bad guys forehead, catch it, hit someone with thor's hammer and still manage to block an attack with that shield...?

    Buckler: "You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand."

    Hands: "A few items, such as a longbow, list 1+ for its Hands entry. You can hold a weapon with a 1+ entry in one hand, but the process of shooting it requires using a second to retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow. This means you can do things with your free hand while holding the bow without changing your grip, but the other hand must be free when you shoot. To properly wield a 1+ weapon, you must hold it in one hand and also have a hand free."

    Both the buckler's Raise Shield and the bow require a free hand so everything is fine rules-wise.

    I think the question here for some people would be whether the shield is using your hand while the "shield raise" action is active, and that interacts with the retributive strike reaction. I would probably rule that using retributive strike makes you lose the shield's bonus to your AC.


    Unicore wrote:
    I think the question here for some people would be whether the shield is using your hand while the "shield raise" action is active, and that interacts with the retributive strike reaction.

    It's SUPER clear that that can't possibly be the case. You have to have that hand free OR a light object in it to raise a shield with a buckler. That means you can do it with a torch in that hand. That being the case there is NO way it could require that hand be free when it states can already be used/taken...

    "Buckler: "You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand.""

    Again, I don't see anything questionable here.


    graystone wrote:
    Unicore wrote:
    I think the question here for some people would be whether the shield is using your hand while the "shield raise" action is active, and that interacts with the retributive strike reaction.

    It's SUPER clear that that can't possibly be the case. You have to have that hand free OR a light object in it to raise a shield with a buckler. That means you can do it with a torch in that hand. That being the case there is NO way it could require that hand be free when it states can already be used/taken...

    "Buckler: "You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand.""

    Again, I don't see anything questionable here.

    If a player made this argument at the table and nobody else disagreed, I'd be fine with this ruling as well. It is not really a game breaking thing, and it is a fun cool build. But I would argue that the long bow is a terrible weapon for the current champion, because the shortbow paladin build is just fine. My only point is that it is a little ironic and unfortunate that the functional bow wielding paladin of Erastil is the one that choses not to carry the weapon of their deity.

    And a -2 penalty to attack for a paladin is a bigger penalty than it is for the fighter because it lowers their first attack roll, even with a maxed out dex, into the lower than level average AC category. It cannot hold a candle to the shortbow for a character who's entire class is built around staying within 15ft of their allies and their enemies.
    Which again is mechanically fine, but it feels arbitrarily punishing as far as narrative goes, and will become mechanically punishing if future champion feats build upon using your deific weapon.

    I would prefer for Erastil just to have the bow as his deific weapon, but since that ship has sailed, a feat specifically about allowing a paladin of Erastil to not be penalized for using a long bow with retributive strike does not seem out of place or overpowered.


    Unicore wrote:
    My only point is that it is a little ironic and unfortunate that the functional bow wielding paladin of Erastil is the one that choses not to carry the weapon of their deity.

    Oh, I'll agree that some favored weapon aren't great but it isn't limited to Erastil. An Abadar paladin using a crossbow isn't in a good place either. It's mostly because ranged combat isn't really a champions thing. It's kind of like how a monk can learn how to use Shuriken but even though it's a monk weapon they can't flurry or use any other monk abilities with it. They might eventually get some feats for those niches but I think they'll be pretty far in the future IMO.


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    I'm still baffled by that, myself. I may have not been able to think it all the way through but what reason is there to limit the monk's use of shuriken? I suppose it does sort of step on the toes of the Wild Winds Stance, but even then the wind strikes are a bigger die.
    Now I end my miniderail.


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    I feel like a lot of it isn't intentionally trying to limit options so much as just a quirk of the way Paizo decided to print feats. By tying combat options to class options, it means you can only get support for a specific weapon or fighting style if the class gives you that support.

    Multiclassing theoretically helps address this, but buying into support for weapons like the shuriken and longbow ends up being kind of taxy with how bad the dedications are. It just ends up feeling bad.

    Maybe we'll see more opening up of support down the line.

    It's kind of ironic though that buying into other fighting styles feels so bad for martials in particular to do (at least if you want to buy into fighter stuff).


    Squiggit wrote:
    I feel like a lot of it isn't intentionally trying to limit options so much as just a quirk of the way Paizo decided to print feats.

    I actually think it's a bit of both: I think the plan for core class options where for each class to have a clear 'lane' to stand out in to make them distinct. This added to class feats makes it feel like stepping outside the 'lane' given to the class, even a little, an uphill battle.

    Multiclass: While it does allow you to 'blur the lines' in those class 'lanes', going martial to martial seems mostly bad as the base feats mostly give out non-class specific things like proficiencies [weapon/armor], skills, ect. Barbarian/ranger are real standouts as it's giving a real class ability like the cater feats do so it seems like less of a 'tax'.

    Monk is a special case as the ability is a class one but it's most times useless. Classes that would want it mostly have abilities that equal it or exceed it [alchemist, barbarian, cleric, champion, cleric, sorcerer, druid] and stance feats from monk do the same. In some ways it feels worse than the proficiency issues as it feels like they went out of their way to make sure even non-martial classes couldn't use it.

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