Tie up DC


Rules Questions


When a character successfully ties up another with rope, it states that the DC to break out is 20 + their CMB. My question is will the bonuses from feats like improved grapple and items like gauntlets of the skilled maneuver increase this DC since it stems from grappling?


No. Improved Grapple adds to your combat maneuver checks and CMD with respect to grappling. There is no check involved on your part once you've tied up someone, and your CMD is irrelevant, so there's nothing to grant a bonus to. Gauntlets of the skilled maneuver are basically the same situation--there's no check to augment.


Yes.

There is no such thing as a general Combat Maneuver. There's

Bull Rush
Dirty Trick
Disarm
Drag
Grapple
Overrun
Reposition
Steal
Sunder
Trip

If you Tie Up someone in a Grapple, the DC to escape is 20 + CMB. What other CMB would you use if not your Grapple CMB? Your Bull Rush CMB?

That being said, I am only specifically referring to the Tie Up Grapple Action taken "as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple."

If you are tying someone up who is unconscious or sleeping, you are not Grappling them--I guess--so you may well be required to use your Use Rope Skill instead, but I think if your Grapple CMB is better than your Use Rope Bonus, then you should be allowed to use your GMB, and it should take you 2 Standard Actions to do it, or 1 Standard + 1 Move action if you have Greater Grapple, of course.


Pathfinder doesn’t have a “use rope” skill.

In the combat maneuvers section under the grapple skill:

“ If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD)”

You do not “roll to tie someone up,” you simply tie them up and the effectiveness of tying them up is modified by your CMB.


However, tied up functions as “pinned” other than the changes it notes, and “Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack“ meaning that your bonus to CMB for grapple checks *does* effect your role to escape being pinned or tied up.

Edit: So to answer the OP, yes. Improved/greater grapple and any other bonuses to grapple function for escaping from being “tied up,” because it functions as pinned.

Edit #2: ahhh I misread your original question. Truthfully I don’t know if it would effect the DC... my gut says yes. Because it functions as pinned, so if the person who initiated it has a bonus to their CMB/CMD vs grapple, then that should apply, since the enemy has to make a grapple check (or escape artist) to get out. But they’re no longer making it *against you* it’s against the rope... also it should be noted that when an enemy uses escape artist instead of a grapple check to escape the grapple, you do not get your bonus to CMD, since they aren’t using a grapple combat maneuver against you


CMantle wrote:
Pathfinder doesn’t have a “use rope” skill.

Sorry: been playing a lot of 3.5, lately.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
CMantle wrote:
Pathfinder doesn’t have a “use rope” skill.
Sorry: been playing a lot of 3.5, lately.

Cast atonement to be forgiven, otherwise...


Another question, if the DC is greater than 20+ their CMB and thus can't can't escape (even with a nat 20), does that also mean they can't escape using escape artist as well?


tearnImale wrote:
Another question, if the DC is greater than 20+ their CMB and thus can't can't escape (even with a nat 20), does that also mean they can't escape using escape artist as well?

They can still use Escape Artist to escape (it's a process that takes one minute), but it's with the same rules. If their Escape Artist Bonus + 20 < Binder's CMB + 20 then they can't escape. You can find that rule under the Escape Artist skill


CMantle wrote:
tearnImale wrote:
Another question, if the DC is greater than 20+ their CMB and thus can't can't escape (even with a nat 20), does that also mean they can't escape using escape artist as well?
They can still use Escape Artist to escape (it's a process that takes one minute), but it's with the same rules. If their Escape Artist Bonus + 20 < Binder's CMB + 20 then they can't escape. You can find that rule under the Escape Artist skill

Another thing to bear in mind is that if they can't "escape" from the bindings even with the Natural 20, that doesn't mean they can't Burst the Ropes. IIRC, Hemp Rope has a Burst DC of 23, Silk Rope 24, Spidersilk Rope, 25, Chain 26, and Mithril Chain 27. The rules do not offer a Burst DC of Adamantine Chain, so perhaps there isn't one, but I never saw a Market Price for Adamantine Chain. There is the Dwarven Dorn Dergar, which is a chain weapon that is 10' long, and that is available in Adamanitne for an extra 3000gp. I suppose you can try to break that using the breaking unattended objects rules. There is also the Iron Rope that upon command turns into an Iron Bar in the shape you tied it into, and there is no Burst DC for that, either.


Thanks for this, though i have to admit, I find it a bit unappealing that a character can just keep trying to burst through the bonds, and anyone with even just a moderate strength modifier can just escape them.


tearnImale wrote:
Thanks for this, though i have to admit, I find it a bit unappealing that a character can just keep trying to burst through the bonds, and anyone with even just a moderate strength modifier can just escape them.

It's not so bad. A run-of-the-mill human with the basic NPC array and no special abilities tops out at 15 Strength (13 + 2 racial) before 4th level, so you can properly tie up pretty much any average commoner/expert/whatever and not get burst without help. Even the heroic array means only NPCs who made Strength one of their two primary scores can burst without assistance (again, until 4th level).

By the time you hit 4th level, it's fine that hemp rope stops being much of an impediment. And a GM is perfectly free to add circumstance modifiers or adjust DC for cases like using multiple ropes, etc.

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