Shrink item antics


Advice


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What are some creative and fun uses for the shrink item spell?

A 20 cubic feet object, 80 bulk object is pretty crazy. What kind of fun can we have with that?

EDIT: Originally stated "a 20x20 foot object..."


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The line about not being used to attack kind of prevents a lot of fun ideas. (Such as a slingshot or dropping it on someone).

Techcincally the duratin is "forever until there is enough space"
So you could just get a metal tube and take just all the supplies, or small cabin, carraige, etc.
and just keep small coins of instant supplies in a metal tube.

You could create instant cover fields. use an interact to dump out a metal tube and Bam, instant hard cover.

Could carry parts of an instant battlestation, and dump them out in the right spacing to create a small village over night. (then spend a week or so shrinking it down again to move later on).

To me this is perfect for traveling with anything and everything.

Also get a 20x20 box. Fill it with the loot you get on adventuring, shrink it and stick it in a tube. You can loot as much as you want without worrying about bulk much.

If you're trying to steal something. Shrink it and swallow it. Goodluck having someone find it on a general search.

instant siege weapons come to mind as well.

Or just a massiave huge wall covered in spikes, that will tip over shortly onto an enemy.

A lot of water maybe.

I'm not sure exactly how th game parses"one non magical item"
Is a box filled with stuff one item? or is it 1 box+lots of stuff? (and then what happens if you shrink the box while stuff is in it? The spell prevents damage on returning to size
but I don't think it prevents damage while shrinking.

Could you kill someone by shrinking their cage? or small house?)


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Darn. Seems I misread the spell. It's 20 cubic feet. That's a MUCH smaller volume (twenty 1-foot cubes, rather than 400 5-foot cubes).

Zwordsman wrote:
If you're trying to steal something. Shrink it and swallow it. Good luck having someone find it on a general search.

Now that's a good idea! The spell will stay active until it's good and ready to come out. Brings a whole new meaning to the term "drug mule."

Zwordsman wrote:
A lot of water maybe.

This is actually what I was considering before. I called it the "vial of flood." My character was going to cast it on 64,000 gallons of water (enough to fill a 20×20 foot area, or 400 contiguous 5-foot cubes) and store it all in a single vial. She would then typically use it to put out large fires. :P

I wasn't even concerned about the bulk of that much water, as most gargantuan flesh and blood creatures in the game are only around 36 bulk, and they're mostly water too. XD

Not sure that shrink item works on unusual items (such as actively burning campfires) like it did in 1st Edition though.


I wonder if compressed gases or inhale poisons would work or not.

Speaking of fires. You could potentially shrink a ready made flour bomb?

in the right setting the 80bulk of water could drown someone though. Even if it can't cause damage via the size change.


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Eh, maybe, but just how much water does it take to get to 80 bulk? Certainly more than you can fit in 20-cubic feet!

In any case, I imagine it's pretty likely you can't cast it on things like water, gases, or the like in 2nd Edition.


Makes me wonder if you could cool the water until near freezing to compress more volume before shrinking.

But at that point its becoming too granular I figure.

Instant smoke screens of some sort or instant ocean of oil, stuff like that would likely be ago to for me.

As well as instant covers.


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I redid the math for 20 cubic feet, rather than a 20 foot cube.

With the correct measurements, this will work on approximately 150 gallons of water, enough to fill 20 cubic feet or thoroughly drench a 3×3 square area with 1-inch of water.

Other cool ideas...

You could cast shrink item on a tepee-like structure and wear it as your wizard's hat. That way you can dispel it at any time to get total cover.

Twenty cubic feet is roughly ten medium humanoids worth of volume, so you could conceivably cart away something twice the size of this (if they were life-sized). That could be extremely useful for a thief. Why risk exposure taking the time to carve gems out of a large statue when you can just take the whole statue? Said thief could even put it in a box or other container (such as the aforementioned stomach) to artificially extend the duration far beyond its normal limits (useful when smuggling things long distances).


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"forever until there is enough space" makes me picture a Gnome toy maker, making the most intense jack-in-the-box ever.


Which makes me think, if you got someone with a good enough craft to make somewhat realistic statues, and some time, you could make 'monsters' in the box. Throw the box and hope the statue buys you a turn {and some cover}, or if the foe is somewhat cowardly, cause them to flee.

I'm also wondering if its possible to shrink an item and palming it onto someone else. As long as it has room to grow when it is dismissed, and not used in a way that would damage the person, to avoid the non-attacking clause, the creature would still need to deal with Bulk and Encumbrance of the new item on them.{hmm, borderline if it would still be considered an attack then...}

Also, I can see this being used to sink ships. Shrink a whole lot of items, get on board the ship, and to the lower decks. Then just start unshrinking all the junk you brought on to one side of the ship to make it off-balanced. {and subsequently, have an escape plan.}.


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Siro wrote:

Which makes me think, if you got someone with a good enough craft to make somewhat realistic statues, and some time, you could make 'monsters' in the box. Throw the box and hope the statue buys you a turn {and some cover}, or if the foe is somewhat cowardly, cause them to flee.

I'm also wondering if its possible to shrink an item and palming it onto someone else. As long as it has room to grow when it is dismissed, and not used in a way that would damage the person, to avoid the non-attacking clause, the creature would still need to deal with Bulk and Encumbrance of the new item on them.{hmm, borderline if it would still be considered an attack then...}

Also, I can see this being used to sink ships. Shrink a whole lot of items, get on board the ship, and to the lower decks. Then just start unshrinking all the junk you brought on to one side of the ship to make it off-balanced. {and subsequently, have an escape plan.}.

"I unshrunk all the items down in the hold like you said, sir."

"Good. Now let's unshrink that raft and skedaddle."
"Um..."
"By all, you meant all all?"
"Assuming you'd meant all...yes."


Ravingdork wrote:

Eh, maybe, but just how much water does it take to get to 80 bulk? Certainly more than you can fit in 20-cubic feet!

In any case, I imagine it's pretty likely you can't cast it on things like water, gases, or the like in 2nd Edition.

One cubic foot of water weighs 62.43 pounds, according to some quick googling. 20 cubic ft would weigh almost 1250 pounds.


Xenocrat wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Eh, maybe, but just how much water does it take to get to 80 bulk? Certainly more than you can fit in 20-cubic feet!

In any case, I imagine it's pretty likely you can't cast it on things like water, gases, or the like in 2nd Edition.

One cubic foot of water weighs 62.43 pounds, according to some quick googling. 20 cubic ft would weigh almost 1250 pounds.

This is one time I'm really happy that I use decimal measures.

(I hope that my OT doesn't derail the thread! ;) )


20 foot by 20 foot by 20 foot, by the way, is also not 400 5-foot cubes.

its 64 5-foot cubes.


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Wizards definitely should be using this as a method to stash their spellbook (if not a spell substitution thesis wizard) or backups once they can spare the slot or a wand. Backups, of course, can be shrunk and then stuck inside another container to last indefinitely. A custom locket or inside a fake compass or pocketwatch would work, or inside the lining of cloak or backpack.


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Draco18s wrote:

20 foot by 20 foot by 20 foot, by the way, is also not 400 5-foot cubes.

its 64 5-foot cubes.

20 cubic feet are not 20ft*20ft*20ft (that's 8000 cubic feet) it's 20ft*1ft*1ft (or 20*(1ft*1ft*1ft) to put it simpler)


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Draco18s wrote:

20 foot by 20 foot by 20 foot, by the way, is also not 400 5-foot cubes.

its 64 5-foot cubes.

I'm a graphic designer. Math isn't exactly my strong suit. XD


shroudb wrote:
Draco18s wrote:

20 foot by 20 foot by 20 foot, by the way, is also not 400 5-foot cubes.

its 64 5-foot cubes.

20 cubic feet are not 20ft*20ft*20ft (that's 8000 cubic feet) it's 20ft*1ft*1ft (or 20*(1ft*1ft*1ft) to put it simpler)

Yes, that part was established already.


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

At first I read the last two posts as:

Ravingdork wrote:
I'm a graphic designer. Math isn't exactly my strong suit. XD
Draco18s wrote:
Yes, that part was established already.

That made it a whole lot funnier. Just sayin'.


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Hehehe.


Get a 10' by 10' cube of Jell-O and keep it in a small box. You can impress everyone at the potluck by providing an edible gelatinous cube.


Paradozen wrote:
Get a 10' by 10' cube of Jell-O and keep it in a small box. You can impress everyone at the potluck by providing an edible gelatinous cube.

Didn't Red Dragon Inn already have a 'gelatinous cube shot'?


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Shrink anvil and forge for on-the-go smithing.

Make crude conceptualist sculptures with Shape Stone (no fine details) and pop them up in major thoroughfares around Absalom, becoming the Golarion equivalent of Banksy. This could be a fun villain idea, who gets a little too extreme with their art.

Carry around statues, that you can animate via the animate object ritual. Takes 1 day and totally portable.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
Draco18s wrote:

20 foot by 20 foot by 20 foot, by the way, is also not 400 5-foot cubes.

its 64 5-foot cubes.

I'm a graphic designer. Math isn't exactly my strong suit. XD

For visualization purposes 20cubic feet is the interior space of a medium size refrigerator.


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Grimmzorch wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Draco18s wrote:

20 foot by 20 foot by 20 foot, by the way, is also not 400 5-foot cubes.

its 64 5-foot cubes.

I'm a graphic designer. Math isn't exactly my strong suit. XD
For visualization purposes 20cubic feet is the interior space of a medium size refrigerator.

It's also roughly the space of ten human adults.

People often underestimate cubic footage because they unconsciously include the empty space many objects have.

But that's not the way it works. Imagine just about any object or creature. Now imagine it being liquefied or turned into dust. That puddle or pile of dust more accurately represents that thing's cubic footage. That's why an adult human is generally considered roughly 2 cubic feet.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Grimmzorch wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Draco18s wrote:

20 foot by 20 foot by 20 foot, by the way, is also not 400 5-foot cubes.

its 64 5-foot cubes.

I'm a graphic designer. Math isn't exactly my strong suit. XD
For visualization purposes 20cubic feet is the interior space of a medium size refrigerator.

It's also roughly the space of ten human adults.

People often underestimate cubic footage because they unconsciously include the empty space many objects have.

But that's not the way it works. Imagine just about any object or creature. Now imagine it being liquefied or turned into dust. That puddle or pile of dust more accurately represents that thing's cubic footage. That's why an adult human is generally considered roughly 2 cubic feet.

The problem imo with trying to visualise it as "10 humans" is that's almost impossible to visualise 10 humans fit so tightly that there 0 wasted space in between them.

IF you actually manage to visualise them so tightly packed that there 0 dead space... Then you actually have compressed them enough to fit in a refrigerator.

So, easier to just imagine the refrigerator from the get go^^


Ravingdork wrote:

Eh, maybe, but just how much water does it take to get to 80 bulk? Certainly more than you can fit in 20-cubic feet!

In any case, I imagine it's pretty likely you can't cast it on things like water, gases, or the like in 2nd Edition.

If one were to shrink 20 cubic feet of ice down to an ice cube and put it in a metal canteen, you'd have a very long lasting supply of cold drinking water as the ice melted... maybe.

It would be subject to GM interpretation, of course. Might not stay cold of it can't continue melting once the canteen fills up. Also might pressurize the canteen just enough to make a mess every time you open it.


An ice object would be weird because of the melting water. That would have to expand back to normal, right? How odd. So you could have a fake spring.

An adult is not 2 cubic feet.
Google gave me a link to a formula showing a 155 lb. man being 2.43 cubic feet. And there are many folk larger than that.
You can use the weight of water to get a good approximation.
So around 62.5 pounds per cubic foot, so around 1240 pounds of people.

I think something that folds would work well, tighten up the space. But even just a boulder would be useful for blocking a door (depending on the door and the creature behind it). And while the expansion of the object can't be used to attack, you can hit the ceiling above an enemy (since the spell ends when the object hits a solid surface). If you're extra cheesy, you could put them in glass vials for permanent keeping until tossed.
Since I think the spirit of the rule is to prevent similar shenanigans, I'd likely rule the item falls to the ground faster than it expands, at least on a tactical scale. Of course, if you do this high above a castle, you could bomb it by smacking the pebble-boulders against metal.
Funny, but I hope I don't see this at the table (not that I would have a castle incapable of taking out aerial threats).

Other items:
Ramp (perhaps folded)
Pavilion
Tarp
Rug
Meat
Corpse (because planting evidence is a thing)
Sled
Boat
Hollow rock to hide under
Statue (various, including yourself, a gargoyle, an enemy, a warrior)
Barrier (various, to suit setting)

You can pretty much build a Robe of Many Things.


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Fold a tarp into a rectangle, shrink it to the size of a playing card, then when threatened expand it over your enemy's head screaming "You've activated my Tarp Card" and run away.


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Castilliano wrote:

An adult is not 2 cubic feet.

Google gave me a link to a formula showing a 155 lb. man being 2.43 cubic feet. And there are many folk larger than that.
You can use the weight of water to get a good approximation.
So around 62.5 pounds per cubic foot, so around 1240 pounds of people.

I did say roughly 2 cubic feet. :P I made that same Google search a while back, but was quoting from memory, so I'm not surprised I'm a little off.

Also, pounds are not a measure of volume and should not be used as such.


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Castilliano wrote:
An ice object would be weird because of the melting water. That would have to expand back to normal, right? How odd. So you could have a fake spring.

Water expands as it freezes, so your ice object will have a smaller volume once it melts.


Ravingdork wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

An adult is not 2 cubic feet.

Google gave me a link to a formula showing a 155 lb. man being 2.43 cubic feet. And there are many folk larger than that.
You can use the weight of water to get a good approximation.
So around 62.5 pounds per cubic foot, so around 1240 pounds of people.

I did say roughly 2 cubic feet. :P I made that same Google search a while back, but was quoting from memory, so I'm not surprised I'm a little off.

Also, pounds are not a measure of volume and should not be used as such.

Did you not follow the conversions?

We're mostly water. Water has a weight per cubic foot.
So you can convert "people weight" into "water weight" into "water volume" pretty readily.
And I think for the spell we'd have to include the volume in-between, such as under our arms or between our legs. Otherwise we could shrink a huge tent saying we're only counting the volume of the fabric. Or even a thin-walled hut.

Fumarole wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
An ice object would be weird because of the melting water. That would have to expand back to normal, right? How odd. So you could have a fake spring.
Water expands as it freezes, so your ice object will have a smaller volume once it melts.

"Expand" had nothing to do with physics (which you are correct about), but rather magic.

The magically small ice object melts off water which now doesn't count as part of that object so presumably it expands. So this coin sized ice object could hold 20 cubic feet of water (minus the difference for starting as ice which is less dense, larger).
If you put the object in a crack, the water will leak out.
If you put it in a fragile flask, I do not know the implications because water would be created, but have no space. And that water would theoretically not be limited by the rule on the ice object to not expand. And if you could use it to break a flask, you could use it to break larger things too. Apply heat & boom. Therefore it probably shouldn't be allowed to break a flask! (Spirit of the rule and such.)

If you find an appropriate statue, you could tuck the ice near their tear duct and the statue would cry. And by find, I mean perhaps build to found a fake cult around. Color the water red as needed.

If you use frozen holy water, there might be a trick there too.
Too bad undead typically have low body temperatures, but if you're shrinking objects, you likely have access to heat.


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Decanter of Not-Endless-But-Still-A-Significantly-Larger-Amount-of Water.


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Castilliano wrote:

Did you not follow the conversions?

We're mostly water. Water has a weight per cubic foot.
So you can convert "people weight" into "water weight" into "water volume" pretty readily.

And I think for the spell we'd have to include the volume in-between, such as under our arms or between our legs. Otherwise we could shrink a huge tent saying we're only counting the volume of the fabric. Or even a thin-walled hut.

I followed the logic just fine. It's just that mixing things up like that can cause confusion, and possibly, lead to some false conclusions.

Also, if we include "nothing" then the spell fails. It would be practically worthless and there'd really be no point in including the volume limitations in the first place since table variance would be all over the place.

Dark Archive

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Ravingdork wrote:
That could be extremely useful for a thief. Why risk exposure taking the time to carve gems out of a large statue when you can just take the whole statue?

Older dungeons fairly regularly had insane items like thrones plated in solid gold, that would take days to remove (in a dungeon slated to be destroyed when the volcano erupted at the end of the adventure), or filled with gemstones that would be damaged if removed, or just flat out too heavy to carry out of the dungeon, that shrink item just magically solves.

GM "The throne of the Melnibonean sorcerer-king is carved from a single giant ruby that weighs tons and can't be..."

PC <Abracadara!> "I put it in my pocket."

But other ideas might be some sort of instant terrain or portable hazard, creating a carpet with lots of nails sticking upwards out of it to function like caltrops strewn in the area, and then shrinking it down and rolling it up to keep in your pocket. Enemies approach, you pull it out, unfurl it and fling it down and enlarge it, covering a 10x10 area with 'caltrops.'

If a sack of smaller items count as 'an object,' then a dozen actual sets of caltrops, all in a giant sack, could be fun. You throw down what appears to be a single sack of caltrops, and tiny little barely visible caltrops tinkle out like dust specks, before expanding into thousands and thousands of full-sized caltrops.

Multiple shrunken bear traps could similarly be a fun thing to carry around, tossing them behind you while fleeing and causing them to enlarge. Various other portable traps could be possible as well.

Carry shrunken ballista in your bag, for those fun encounters with manticores or other annoying flying attackers with good ranged attacks. You get a ballista and you get a ballista... Everyone gets a ballista!


Ravingdork wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

Did you not follow the conversions?

We're mostly water. Water has a weight per cubic foot.
So you can convert "people weight" into "water weight" into "water volume" pretty readily.

And I think for the spell we'd have to include the volume in-between, such as under our arms or between our legs. Otherwise we could shrink a huge tent saying we're only counting the volume of the fabric. Or even a thin-walled hut.

I followed the logic just fine. It's just that mixing things up like that can cause confusion, and possibly, lead to some false conclusions.

Also, if we include "nothing" then the spell fails. It would be practically worthless and there'd really be no point in including the volume limitations in the first place since table variance would be all over the place.

I disagree because that's basic math.

Conversion of water weight or people weight to cubic feet is no more confusing than converting people to cubic feet (as you did). Less in fact because it's objective and not subject to one's interpretation of what a "people" equals.

I disagree because IMO 20 cubic feet should be the space filled by the object, not what that object would be if scrunched up when it isn't scrunched up.


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Castilliano wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

Did you not follow the conversions?

We're mostly water. Water has a weight per cubic foot.
So you can convert "people weight" into "water weight" into "water volume" pretty readily.

And I think for the spell we'd have to include the volume in-between, such as under our arms or between our legs. Otherwise we could shrink a huge tent saying we're only counting the volume of the fabric. Or even a thin-walled hut.

I followed the logic just fine. It's just that mixing things up like that can cause confusion, and possibly, lead to some false conclusions.

Also, if we include "nothing" then the spell fails. It would be practically worthless and there'd really be no point in including the volume limitations in the first place since table variance would be all over the place.

I disagree because that's basic math.

Conversion of water weight or people weight to cubic feet is no more confusing than converting people to cubic feet (as you did). Less in fact because it's objective and not subject to one's interpretation of what a "people" equals.

I disagree because IMO 20 cubic feet should be the space filled by the object, not what that object would be if scrunched up when it isn't scrunched up.

Well, okay then.


So far, from what I've seen from this thread is if it fits in the space of a refrigerator, there's no question about the shrinkage.

If it doesn't, then I'd ask for a justification of how much empty space is a part of this large object, and if folded/compressed down, it would fit in the fridge.


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Garretmander wrote:

So far, from what I've seen from this thread is if it fits in the space of a refrigerator, there's no question about the shrinkage.

If it doesn't, then I'd ask for a justification of how much empty space is a part of this large object, and if folded/compressed down, it would fit in the fridge.

Are you stating that from a player perspective or a GM perspective? Asking for justification from a player is VERY different than asking for justification from a GM.

In any case, erring on the side of not pissing everyone off is probably the best way to handle it at most tables.

Still, the idea that empty space should also be considered part of an object (when it objectively isn't) just seems alien to me.


Ravingdork wrote:
Garretmander wrote:

So far, from what I've seen from this thread is if it fits in the space of a refrigerator, there's no question about the shrinkage.

If it doesn't, then I'd ask for a justification of how much empty space is a part of this large object, and if folded/compressed down, it would fit in the fridge.

Are you stating that from a player perspective or a GM perspective? Asking for justification from a player is VERY different than asking for justification from a GM.

In any case, erring on the side of not pissing everyone off is probably the best way to handle it at most tables.

Still, the idea that empty space should also be considered part of an object (when it objectively isn't) just seems alien to me.

GM perspective.

Cubic feet is a measure of volume not mass after all. So large hollow objects are oddly harder to shrink than super dense objects with smaller total volume. Like... shrinking a free standing staircase should be easy even though the staircase appears to be larger than a fridge. I wouldn't ask anyone to calculate volumes, but you're only shrinking the stairs and railings, not the empty space under the stairs or between the railings. A boulder on the other hand, needs to be the size of a fridge or smaller.

I agree to err on the side of allowing a player to shrink things though. Just keep it from getting out of hand.


A sphere 20 cubic feet in volume would be about 3'4" tall.
That could be enough big enough to fit a small character in,or behind or provide half cover to a larger character.
A cylinder 6 feet in diameter by 8.5" fills the 20 cubic feet as well, and offers more cover.
Either might be moveable by an unseen servant once deployed.

Very dry basketry, filled with flammable materials would be a default choice for me.

Riffing on the ice water idea, what happens if you set fire to a shrunken cord of firewood?

Deploying these shrunken items take actions,but they are not attacks.
This is a place where a manually dexterous familiar could shine.

Dark Archive

I wonder if you can cast shrink item on a living (non-creature) item, such as a patch of green slime or brown mold (and if causing it to assume a cloth-like consistency, which can even make a burning bonfire safe to fold up and put in your pocket, would make this hazard safe to handle). I'm not immediately seeing language forbidding it, although that doesn't guarantee that it's 'anything goes.' :)

Imagine flinging down a 7.5" scrap of green or brown cloth, and having it revert into a 10' by 10' green slime or brown mold hazard! Or tie said cloth around an arrow and shoot it into someone, although that could be even more of a nuisance to adjudicate for the GM...


Set wrote:

I wonder if you can cast shrink item on a living (non-creature) item, such as a patch of green slime or brown mold (and if causing it to assume a cloth-like consistency, which can even make a burning bonfire safe to fold up and put in your pocket, would make this hazard safe to handle). I'm not immediately seeing language forbidding it, although that doesn't guarantee that it's 'anything goes.' :)

Imagine flinging down a 7.5" scrap of green or brown cloth, and having it revert into a 10' by 10' green slime or brown mold hazard! Or tie said cloth around an arrow and shoot it into someone, although that could be even more of a nuisance to adjudicate for the GM...

The PF2 version can't be used to attack or deal damage as part of unshrinking the item.

Besides, I'd hesitate to consider an active hazard like brown mold or a bonfire as an 'object'.

Dark Archive

20 cubic ft of stone block/boulder weighs about a ton. Placing these on bridges, roof tops or towers is likely to collapse them. So you could carpet bomb towns and villages with them. They don't damage on contact, but having a one ton stone block on your roof isn't likely to be stable.

You could drop these on drawbridges to either damage them or stop them being raised.

You could drop them in the weight basket of a seige weapon to power it.

Similarly you could use it to power gravity devices such as elevators, pulley system trains and pumps.

Statue moving/theft/delivery service sounds a very sensible use of the spell - and a good plot device.

Shaped blocks make great instant doors for a secure room.


So how tall is an 80 bulk ladder? Because a big ladder could be pretty useful. If nothing else, you might reuse the feather token ladder.

Dark Archive

20 cubic feet encompasses a ladder at least twice as long as the feather token ladder, which would be impractically long for a ladder.

Good point that the spell as written duplicates a feather token, for mundane objects.

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