Yeah, it's terrible. Literally purely worse than ray of frost. Does less damage and a range of only 30 instead of 120…
I wanna read the spell but my book is at home :x
I'm surprised that it doesn't seem to add your spellcasting stat mod to the damage.
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SNOWBALL SPELL 1
ATTACK COLD EVOCATION WATER
Traditions: arcane, primal
Cast [somatic, verbal]
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
You throw a magically propelled and chilled ball of dense snow. The target takes 2d4 cold damage and potentially other effects, depending on the result of your spell attack roll.
Critical Success: The target takes double damage and a –10-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Success: The target takes full damage and a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Failure: No effect.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d4
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SNOWBALL SPELL 1
ATTACK COLD EVOCATION WATER
Traditions: arcane, primal
Cast [somatic, verbal]
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
You throw a magically propelled and chilled ball of dense snow. The target takes 2d4 cold damage and potentially other effects, depending on the result of your spell attack roll.
Critical Success: The target takes double damage and a –10-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Success: The target takes full damage and a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Failure: No effect.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d4
Thanks a lot!
It does look pretty underpowered. Compared against Magic Missle (which auto-hits, has 120 foot range, and can be cast flexibly) it's a super hard sell.
Hydraulic Push does a lot more damage, has more range, and knocks back which is roughly comparable to inducing a speed penalty.
Snowball is definitely in cantrip territory.
SNOWBALL SPELL 1
ATTACK COLD EVOCATION WATER
Traditions: arcane, primal
Cast [somatic, verbal]
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
You throw a magically propelled and chilled ball of dense snow. The target takes 2d4 cold damage and potentially other effects, depending on the result of your spell attack roll.
Critical Success: The target takes double damage and a –10-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Success: The target takes full damage and a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Failure: No effect.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d4Thanks a lot!
It does look pretty underpowered. Compared against Magic Missle (which auto-hits, has 120 foot range, and can be cast flexibly) it's a super hard sell.
Hydraulic Push does a lot more damage, has more range, and knocks back which is roughly comparable to inducing a speed penalty.
Snowball is definitely in cantrip territory.
I agree that hydronic push is the comparison use here. Personally I’d say I’d rather have snowball about 60% over hydraulic. The push is good, but as a damage prevention ability it’s penalty is only applied once, while the speed reduction has its effect again each move action the enemy has to take. Depending on the enemy’s speed that means where hydraulic may may the enemy take an extra action to reach you(presuming you also move away or such), snowball might make the enemy use three actions to reach you.
Not always the case but then on a high speed enemy I think using either spell is probably a waste.
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It's in line with Grim Tendrils damage wise, but only one of those is AoE.
It's strictly worse tha RoF at level 1, but I'm really not seeing the comparison with cantrips past level 1. It literally scales twice as fast as ray of frost... Should you, for some reason, be willing to heighten it.
It's definitely is on the very lower end of level 1 damage spells, though.
If it was d6 based rather than d4, it might be worth it.
The speed debuf might be interesting, but the alternatives include a displacement option with more damage, which is the next best thing. It's'a tough sell.
Whether it is worth it or not is a matter of debate, I guess. Snowball feels very situational, dependant on playstyle. Maybe too much so.
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SNOWBALL SPELL 1
ATTACK COLD EVOCATION WATER
Traditions: arcane, primal
Cast [somatic, verbal]
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
You throw a magically propelled and chilled ball of dense snow. The target takes 2d4 cold damage and potentially other effects, depending on the result of your spell attack roll.
Critical Success: The target takes double damage and a –10-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Success: The target takes full damage and a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Failure: No effect.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d4Thanks a lot!
It does look pretty underpowered. Compared against Magic Missle (which auto-hits, has 120 foot range, and can be cast flexibly) it's a super hard sell.
Hydraulic Push does a lot more damage, has more range, and knocks back which is roughly comparable to inducing a speed penalty.
Snowball is definitely in cantrip territory.
I agree that hydronic push is the comparison use here. Personally I’d say I’d rather have snowball about 60% over hydraulic. The push is good, but as a damage prevention ability it’s penalty is only applied once, while the speed reduction has its effect again each move action the enemy has to take. Depending on the enemy’s speed that means where hydraulic may may the enemy take an extra action to reach you(presuming you also move away or such), snowball might make the enemy use three actions to reach you.
Not always the case but then on a high speed enemy I think using either spell is probably a waste.
Well, if they use two or more move actions. Whereas Hydraulic push could A) knock them out of their ranged weapon increment and force them to move instead of attack x3 or B) push them off a cliff
For utility purposes, if I had a choice between the two I would pick Hydraulic Push every time. I do grant that some specific build might more highly value the movement penalty, but remember it's against a target within 30 feet, so they might not even need to move twice, even with the Snowball penalty.
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It's cold damage. Apply to properly vulnerable foes and it will do some extra damage compared to Hydraulic Push. But then again, so does RoF. Except that RoF only imparts a speed penalty on a critical success, whereas Snowball only needs a success. So there is that. On the other hand, cantrips are heightened automatically...
So yeah, more of a sidegrade then an upgrade to anything. Which is just fine. Anyone playing Team Fortress 2? There are a lot of weapons you can exchange your standard loadout for, but they are hardly ever strictly better. They are almost always rewarding a certain style of play while being actively worse for a different playstyle. And if you look at the comments, many people will say that the stock weapons are actually solid choices.
And if Paizo can keep spells like that, then that would go a long way to promote both balance and fun. Balance, because there won't be any 'no-brainer' choices, and fun because there will be tools for different approaches to the (combat part of the) game.
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SNOWBALL SPELL 1
ATTACK COLD EVOCATION WATER
Traditions: arcane, primal
Cast [somatic, verbal]
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
You throw a magically propelled and chilled ball of dense snow. The target takes 2d4 cold damage and potentially other effects, depending on the result of your spell attack roll.
Critical Success: The target takes double damage and a –10-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Success: The target takes full damage and a –5-foot status penalty to its Speeds for 1 round.
Failure: No effect.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d4Thanks a lot!
It does look pretty underpowered. Compared against Magic Missle (which auto-hits, has 120 foot range, and can be cast flexibly) it's a super hard sell.
Hydraulic Push does a lot more damage, has more range, and knocks back which is roughly comparable to inducing a speed penalty.
Snowball is definitely in cantrip territory.
I agree that hydronic push is the comparison use here. Personally I’d say I’d rather have snowball about 60% over hydraulic. The push is good, but as a damage prevention ability it’s penalty is only applied once, while the speed reduction has its effect again each move action the enemy has to take. Depending on the enemy’s speed that means where hydraulic may may the enemy take an extra action to reach you(presuming you also move away or such), snowball might make the enemy use three actions to reach you.
Not always the case but then on a high speed enemy I think using either spell is probably a waste.
Well, if they use two or more move actions. Whereas Hydraulic push could A) knock them out of their ranged weapon increment and force them to move instead of attack x3 or B) push them off a cliff
For utility purposes, if I had a choice between the two I would pick Hydraulic Push every time. I do grant that some specific build might more highly value the movement penalty, but remember it's against a...
Theoretically you could couple this with Reach Spell, giving it 60ft. I probably wouldn't take Reach Spell just for this spell, but it has value for more than just one spell.
If you already had Reach Spell for other purposes, that does give it a decent value (effectively making it impossible on a hit to reach you and attack with max distance)
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Theoretically you could couple this with Reach Spell, giving it 60ft. I probably wouldn't take Reach Spell just for this spell, but it has value for more than just one spell.If you already had Reach Spell for other purposes, that does give it a decent value (effectively making it impossible on a hit to reach you and attack with max distance
That's a good point.
There's also stopping someone from fleeing as quickly, which Hydraulic Push would only assist them in!
I still gotta think there's a missing +stat damage in there or something.
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On hydraulic push: Something else to consider is that snowball does a better job of encouraging the enemy to stick with the frontliner and not move on to other targets. If you push the target back from the melee threat, they have to spend an action to move in some manner so they may consider going for a different target. Not you pehaps, but not the tank either. If you keep them in place and slow them down they are less likely to move to a different target because they can focus on the targets in reach. It also doesn't screw up flanking, and it makes escaping flanking more annoying for the enemy. If it is supposed to get +stat to damage I think it is in a good place.
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Only cantrips get stat damage, though? I can’t think of an exception.
Only cantrips get stat damage, though? I can’t think of an exception.
Really? Huh, I was under the impression most spells got +stat. If not, I suppose it isn't behind other first level spells necessarily, if the party values -5' speed enough. Not sure why that feels odd to me though.
It is more of a control spell, if you crit it is debilitating to foes (speed wise) and even if you merely hit if they are trying to move it is still pretty detrimental with a bit of cold damage.
I see it as more of a debuff spell than an attack spell. Depending on range, direction of movement and what your foes are doing I could see it being a functional side grade.
The only thing I would really do to it is increase its range to 60 or 90ft
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Only cantrips get stat damage, though? I can’t think of an exception.Really? Huh, I was under the impression most spells got +stat. If not, I suppose it isn't behind other first level spells necessarily, if the party values -5' speed enough. Not sure why that feels odd to me though.
None of the slotted spells get casting attribute to damage, as far as I can see.
Snowball is pretty bad in comparison to other 1st level damaging spells.
Magic Missile: (1d4+1)x3, so 2.5 to 7.5 on avg, depending on actions spent. Good range, auto hit, good against incorporeals.
Shocking Grasp: 2d12 (avg 13), bonus to hit metal wearing, persistent against metal wearing. Downside is touch range.
Snowball: 2d4 (avg 5), poor range, minor speed debuff.
Spider Sting: 1d4 (avg 2.5) plus poison with a likely minimum of 2.5 additional damage. Touch range.
It's hard to see how Magic Missile isn't better than Snowball for general use, and Ray of Frost against the possibility of cold weaknesses, Tanglefoot if you really value significant speed penalties without minor damage riders. It's potentially better than Spider Sting, but Spider Sting is pretty weak.
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Only cantrips get stat damage, though? I can’t think of an exception.Really? Huh, I was under the impression most spells got +stat. If not, I suppose it isn't behind other first level spells necessarily, if the party values -5' speed enough. Not sure why that feels odd to me though.None of the slotted spells get casting attribute to damage, as far as I can see.
Snowball is pretty bad in comparison to other 1st level damaging spells.
Magic Missile: (1d4+1)x3, so 2.5 to 7.5 on avg, depending on actions spent. Good range, auto hit, good against incorporeals.
Shocking Grasp: 2d12 (avg 13), bonus to hit metal wearing, persistent against metal wearing. Downside is touch range.
Snowball: 2d4 (avg 5), poor range, minor speed debuff.
Spider Sting: 1d4 (avg 2.5) plus poison with a likely minimum of 2.5 additional damage. Touch range.
It's hard to see how Magic Missile isn't better than Snowball for general use, and Ray of Frost against the possibility of cold weaknesses, Tanglefoot if you really value significant speed penalties without minor damage riders. It's potentially better than Spider Sting, but Spider Sting is pretty weak.
Spider sting is for enfeeble
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Well, either we're underrating the speed penalty or Paizo is overrating it and I have not played nearly enough PF2 to say for sure. In the exact perfect circumstance for using a spell like Ray of Frost I think you're looking at the penalty effectively being stunned 1, which isn't bad, but is difficult to justify a slot for. It'd be more interesting if the speed penalty lasted longer so you could really use it to better play keep away against the slowed enemy.
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Well, either we're underrating the speed penalty or Paizo is overrating it and I have not played nearly enough PF2 to say for sure. In the exact perfect circumstance for using a spell like Ray of Frost I think you're looking at the penalty effectively being stunned 1, which isn't bad, but is difficult to justify a slot for. It'd be more interesting if the speed penalty lasted longer so you could really use it to better play keep away against the slowed enemy.
Yeah, a 1 minute duration on the speed penalty would definitely make the spell stand out more.
I think speed penalties are fine, so use Tanglefoot, which does it better and once you get some auto-heightening for longer. It's the combination of a weak speed penalty, weak damage (that you absolutely won't heighten), weak speed penalty, bad duration, bad range, and a spell slot cost that make Snowball so lacking.