Hello all,
Our group is ending a two-year campaign of 5th edition D&D due to the DM going abroad for a couple of years. After much discussion, they have elected me to take over GMing. Discussing a little more, the players have all expressed an interest in getting to know the Dark Sun setting.
The problem is: I have been a GM for 16 years, but never got to use the setting. I have the option of running the game in 4th Edition or going berserk and attempting to do it in the Cypher System. AD&D2e is just out of question (can't seem to get my head around its design). I do not think the players would enjoy PTBA.
They seem to be more interested in the setting's theme, rather than strict cannon.
So... I turn and spot the 2e CRB, Bestiary and Word Guide on the table and get this crazy idea of using it.
The arc is 12 sessions, could be extended and is supposed to start in early October. I am thinking mostly of reflavoring, but may use some homebrew.
So, here is what I have so far:
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Ancestries -> Vanilla Dark Sun utilizes humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, half-giants, half-elves, Mul and Thri-keen.
The problem here will be half-giants, Mul and Thri-Keen.
I am thinking of retolling half-orcs as half-giants.
For Mul, I would try to homebrew it as a Human heritage similarly to half elf.
For thri-keen, I have no idea.
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Classes
I am thinking of allowing barbarians, fighters, druids rogues, rangers, monks, bards and alchemists as printed.
For the other classes, I have a problem in that I need to figure what to do with defiling, preserving, psionics and templars.
I have thought of a few options:
a) leave Champions out, retool clerics to worship sorcerer kings or the elements and homebrew defiling and preserving for the arcane classes.
b) retool alignment fluff from champions to turn them into templars. As option 'a' for clerics, wizards and sorcerers.
c) use archetypes for templars, psionics, defilers and preservers.
d) go completely out of canon and make clerics that channel positive energy be preservers while those that do so with negative energy be defilers.
For psionics, I still have no idea. I was thinking of maybe doing something with occult spellcasting.
Anyway, if you could, I'd like to hear some thoughts on whether my idea would be feasible and how would you go about doing it.
I am willing to use and attempt homebrew, although I have just finished the core rulebooks, having run plaguestone for another group.
In addition to those races, lizardfolk is coming in Lost Omens Character Guide, so they can easily stand in for Pterrans if you want. Thrikreen can be based on Kasathas from Starfinder.
Champions deal with a lot of alignment damage, which I'm assuming you won't be using in Dark Sun. As I recall Dark Sun is best if you leave out alignment altogether. Athas is cut off from the Outer Planes, so Aligned magic wouldn't exist at all. Furthermore champions also depend on heavy armor, not exactly a common thing on Athas....Retooling clerics for templars is probably a good call.
I suggest you repurpose the Runescarred archetype from Lost Omens World Guide for psionics, replacing arcane with occult innate spells. I don't know how you can make a full psion within the current rules, though. 1e's psychic comes closest to it, but the class won't be coming for a while. You might need to homebrew a LOT using Bard as basis to get there.
Defilers and preservers should be just class feat options for arcane casters. Defiling mechanics can also be built into a sorcerer bloodline.
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Here is how I would do Dark Sun. Please note that my bible on Dark Sun Races and Classes is this online game which took the basic ideas of Dark Sun and (IMO) made them a thousand times better (although I would definitely consider using Dark Sun geography or some combination of both games).
Humans
They're fine as is.
Half-elves
Mechanically I would keep them the same, but emphasise the duality of two worlds and being accepted by none (basically the most racist behaviour you could think of towards someone of mixed descent).
Dwarves
I'd remove Darkvision and give them 25 feet.
As a slave race (or ex-slave race) I'd also give them Unfettered Halfling as an ancestry feat. I'd also give them Gnome Obsession (call it Focus).
Elves
This is the race with the biggest changes.
Heritages: Whisper Elf and a Heritage similar to the Halfling Wildwood Halfling (but replace foirest and jungle with badlands and desert).
Elf Feats: They'd have the following ancestry feats:
* Sure Feet (from halfling)
* Very Sneaky and Very, Very Sneaky (from goblin)
* Elven Lore (replace arcana with thievery)
* All elven feats except for Forlorn and Otherworldly Magic
Halfling
This has less some big changes.
Heritages I'd pretty much keep the same. But reflavour them.
Halfling Feats:
* Remove Sure Feet, Cultural Adaptability and Unfettered Halfling.
* Give them all other halfling ancestry feats.
* Give them Goblin Scuttle, Rough Rider and Skittering Scuttle.
Half-Giants
I'm not going to go through and create a whole bunch of ancestry feats or heritages or anything.
Ability Score Boosts: Strength, Wisdom, Free (my logic here is that half-giants are very perceptive. They mimic those they're around both physically and emotionally. So if they know observe someone is angry, they'll mimic that even if they don't know why they're angry).
Ability Score Flaw: Dexterity
Speed: 20 feet (they're big, lumbering brutes).
Large: They have natural reach and can use large weapons. However they need 4 times as much food and water as other creatures.
Heritage: They'd probably only have one heritage. If the Large trait is simply too good (and good chance it is) here is where you can knock them down to size. Make them clumsy (penalty on dex checks). If that Large trait is REALLY, REALLY too powerful you could even give them a -1 penalty on Wisdom (they're very suggestible). If it isn't too good, give them some extra benefit keep the -1 Will and give them something to make up for it. Or just give them some benefit with no penalty to Will.
Ancestry Feats:
* Cultural Adaptability (from halfling)
* Grab some stuff from dwarves and stuff to help flesh them out.
* Remember they have no culture of their own and they're very adaptable.
Muls
I'd go with boosts Strength and Charisma for boosts (they're intimidating) and give them either dex or intelligence as a flaw.
I'd give them a heritage that is essentially Orc Ferocity. However I would remove the "once per day" usage and instead require a flat check (DC 11 or you could even do DC 15) each round or else they go beserk (they can always choose to fall unconscious before making the check). Once they go beserk they attack the nearest creature for the next 5 rounds and cannot be reduced to 0 HP. After those 5 rounds they immediately fall unconscious.
Incredible Ferocity could reduce the flat check DC.
Thri-Kreen
It's been a while since I've looked at Thri-Kreen. Basically give them the usual benefits.
Again I'd be inclined to only give them one heritage. Four arms effectively means the ability to hold a shield and a two-handed weapon. So look at the other ancestries and see if anyone gets a comparable benefit and base the balance on that.
I'd be inclined to give Thri-Kreen most of the orc ancestry feats.
Psionics and Wild Talents
You don't need full fledged psionics to get the flavour of Dark Sun. Sure psionicists exist, but it's not like literally every character is one. Bards I would definitely flavour as psionic (and it fits them much better IMO compared with making them assassins). The other thing is Wild Talents.
I'd give every PC a single occult cantrip they can cast as an innate spell. I'd be inclined to go with: Daze, Forbidding Ward, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Know Direction, Mage Hand (flavoured as telekinesis), Message (flavoured as telepathy), Prestidigitation, Shield and Telekinetic Projectile.
And that gives you the flavour of psionicism without having to make a whole bunch of homebrew content.
I'm going to post this now because I almost lost this entire post. Next up: Classes.
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Templars
Cleric = Templar. You really don't need to overthink it. This is just what it is. They pray to their Sorcerer King and get their spells and powers that way.
Elementalists
TSR made these Clerics. I think that is a strange choice. For PF2e I think Sorcerers make a thousand times more sense.
Dark Sun had 4 elemental types: Fire (Suk-Krath), Water (Vivadu), Earth (Ruk) and Air (Whira). If you want to keep it to just these, I'd make up four spell lists and assign them spells. You could assign bloodlines these spell lists.
BUT if you don't want to go to that much effort TSR went really weird with it's elementalists and created Paraelements and subelements which were basically combinations of 2 of the base elements. So you could just let players choose one of a few bloodlines and choose spells as they wish. If they want to keep it to a particular flavour they can self regulate which spells they choose (if they want to play a Vivaduan then don't choose fire spells). Otherwise their innate magic is simply not a base element but a paraelement or whatever TSR called them.
Barbarians
If you want to emphasise the flavour of muls you could make this a mul only class. Otherwise anyone can take it.
Fighters, Bards, Rogues, Rangers
These exist as is. No need to work hard on them.
Alchmist
I don't think alchemists really fit Dark Sun. But if you think they do then definitely include them.
Druids
Dark Sun had nature spirits and a really ambiguous relationship between druids and these spirits. I'd keep druids and emphasise this flavour. But I wouldn't really allow a Templar and a Druid in the same party. I would see druids and templars as opposed to each other and I would really work hard to make it clear nature spirits are not "good guys" and that they're just as bad as templars in their own way.
Monk
I'd lean into the flavour D&D 4th ed assigned to monks and make monks and ki powers psionic in nature.
Wizards
The big question. How do you create defiling? D&D 4th ed which was all about "don't punish players" had defiling as a feat or a power which when used helped the caster. I prefer an approach where defiling is the default assumption and it takes true sacrifice to play a preserver.
I'd have it that when you prepare your spells you either defile the land (leaving behind ash) or you use your own life force. If there isn't enough life in the area, then you can't defile so you have to rely on the spells you had prepped the day before (and any expended slots remain expended until you prepare your spells again).
In this way CRB Wizard = Defiler.
In order to prepare spells without defiling you must reduce your maximum HP for the day by the level of the highest spell you can cast multiplied by X. Now how much you want X to be determines how much you want to make being a preserver punitive. Assuming a character that puts their 2nd best stat in Constitution, if X is 1 then you're taking away about 5% of a preserver's maximum HP. If X is 2 then it's taking away about 10%. If X is 5 then it's about 25%.
So you can decide for yourself how punitive you want preserving to be at your gaming table.
But I would 100% make the default CRB wizard a defiler.
Champions
I just don't think they have any place in Dark Sun. I'd leave them out.
If alchemists were the same as their 1e incarnation I would agree with you there. But the 2e alchemist is fairly generic, both in mechanics and lore (some on these forums would say TOO generic). They don't have that that weird su half-casting thing going on anymore, and they lost the "gross" options like flesh grafting. So as it stands they definitely make sense in Dark Sun.
Assuming defiling to be default is brutal, but I like it. I don't recall ever seeing lore about preservers having to draw upon their own life energy. Preservers are careful about casting spells and make a huge effort to avoid using too much life force from plants, but the default fuel is always plantlife, with animal life being available as a source for more powerful wizards. As such I'd have preserving spells take twice as many actions to cast as defiling spells instead. Alternatively, if you're taking the route of wizards deciding to preserve or defile when preparing spells, preserving spells take up 2 slots or a slot one level higher.
A feat could certainly exist to allow preservers to cast faster or without using up more/higher slots by taking HP damage, though. It's not the default option, but it's conceivable for some preservers to learn how to do it.
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Preservers gathering from themselves rather than the environment is a bit of Armageddon flavour rather than Dark Sun.
I think spending 1 action to not defile would certainly be a more PC friendly way to do it and make most spells 3 actions instead of 2. I think increasing the level would be a bit too punitive.
1 more action to cast when preserving, with a feat that allows "quickened" preserving by taking HP damage equal to spell level should do it. It's simple and to the point.
Templars
Cleric = Templar. You really don't need to overthink it. This is just what it is. They pray to their Sorcerer King and get their spells and powers that way.Elementalists
TSR made these Clerics. I think that is a strange choice. For PF2e I think Sorcerers make a thousand times more sense.Dark Sun had 4 elemental types: Fire (Suk-Krath), Water (Vivadu), Earth (Ruk) and Air (Whira). If you want to keep it to just these, I'd make up four spell lists and assign them spells. You could assign bloodlines these spell lists.
BUT if you don't want to go to that much effort TSR went really weird with it's elementalists and created Paraelements and subelements which were basically combinations of 2 of the base elements. So you could just let players choose one of a few bloodlines and choose spells as they wish. If they want to keep it to a particular flavour they can self regulate which spells they choose (if they want to play a Vivaduan then don't choose fire spells). Otherwise their innate magic is simply not a base element but a paraelement or whatever TSR called them.
Barbarians
If you want to emphasise the flavour of muls you could make this a mul only class. Otherwise anyone can take it.Fighters, Bards, Rogues, Rangers
These exist as is. No need to work hard on them.Alchmist
I don't think alchemists really fit Dark Sun. But if you think they do then definitely include them.Druids
Dark Sun had nature spirits and a really ambiguous relationship between druids and these spirits. I'd keep druids and emphasise this flavour. But I wouldn't really allow a Templar and a Druid in the same party. I would see druids and templars as opposed to each other and I would really work hard to make it clear nature spirits are not "good guys" and that they're just as bad as templars in their own way.Monk
I'd lean into the flavour D&D 4th ed assigned to monks and make monks and ki powers psionic in nature.Wizards
The big question....
Wow, that sounds really good and in line with what I was thinking.
Already helped me a bunch!
As for alchemists, I was thinking about reflavoring the elixirs, bombs and mutagens as poultices that you could make from exotic fungi or desert components. Okay, I would have to justify things like the internal reagents, but I think the class could work, overall
3.5 Dragon Magazine had defiling as an add on to all arcane classes. Presever was the default. Something to look into.
As for psionics. Psychic/occult is part of PF setup so you could have sorcerer with an psychic bloodline/spell list fill that need.
Already helped me a bunch!
As for alchemists, I was thinking about reflavoring the elixirs, bombs and mutagens as poultices that you could make from exotic fungi or desert components. Okay, I would have to justify things like the internal reagents, but I think the class could work, overall
I'm glad to have helped :)
As for alchemists, there are definitely ways to do it. When I hear alchemist I think Renaissance. So just from a name perspective FOR ME it definitely doesn't fit the flavour of Dark Sun which I see more as a barbarians vs monsters flavour.
IF I were to include alchemists, I'd quite possibly have them connected to the noble houses. Practicing alchemy without a connection to a noble house would be looked down at with strong skepticism. And given formula books are a thing (unless you houserule that out) alchemy would actually be illegal. But of course nobles and their slaves are above the law so an enslaved alchemist would not only be allowed but might be one of the more prestigious positions of a slave and so 100% appropriate for a PC (and the PC could also be an escaped slave).
Or you could remove the formula book and simply have them using natural herbs to create poultices, herbal remedies and explosive compounds.
3.5 Dragon Magazine had defiling as an add on to all arcane classes. Presever was the default. Something to look into.
As for psionics. Psychic/occult is part of PF setup so you could have sorcerer with an psychic bloodline/spell list fill that need.
If you want to encourage preservers then making them the exception would definitely be the way to go. I'd personally make preservers non-existant in the first Dark Sun campaign I run, make defilers not-PC accessible and instead have them be a bad guy. And then slowly introduce people into the campaign who CLAIM to be preservers (and let the PCs determine for themselves where or not they believe these claims and whether or not they're actually true).
As for a psionic sorcerer: Hag bloodline would work absolutely perfectly for that. Aberrant bloodline might as well if you want less mental aspects and more of the strange disciplines of psionics.
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FYI alchemy in real life has existed since Ancient Egypt. It's definitely not something that only started in the Renaissance.
Greek fire (what alchemist's fire is based on) had its first recorded use in the 600s.
Dark Sun city states are usually based somewhat on Classical Antiquity cultures, so alchemists definitively have a place.
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Personally, if I were running a Dark Sun Campaign, I'd make the entire Divine casting tradition rare.
Athas is a world devoid of gods. Either they all died long ago, or they never existed to begin with. So any objects of a divine nature are going to be... well, rare. To say the least.
FYI alchemy in real life has existed since Ancient Egypt. It's definitely not something that only started in the Renaissance.
That's why I said that's what I think of when I hear it ;) Just like when I hear of early guns I think 17th century Europe and not 10th century China ;)
As for alchemists, there are definitely ways to do it. When I hear alchemist I think Renaissance. So just from a name perspective FOR ME it definitely doesn't fit the flavour of Dark Sun which I see more as a barbarians vs monsters flavour.
IF I were to include alchemists, I'd quite possibly have them connected to the noble houses. Practicing alchemy without a connection to a noble house would be looked down at with strong skepticism. And given formula books are a thing (unless you houserule that out) alchemy would actually be illegal. But of course nobles and their slaves are above the law so an enslaved alchemist would not only be allowed but might be one of the more prestigious positions of a slave and so 100% appropriate for a PC (and the PC could also be an escaped slave).
Another way of looking at Alchemists (and this works well with your suggestions above) is to remember that Dark Sun is effectively "After The End." So Alchemists would be a relic of the bygone age.
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Don't forget, Defilers are reviled, while Preservers are often disbelieved. So, maybe some form of Deception, to make others think they are using Psionics, or divine magic.
And, it is possible to switch from Preserver to Defiler fairly easily (don't use the extra action, or fail the save and continue the spell anyway, however it's chosen), but it's really hard to move from Defiler to Preserver.
So, here's an idea: what if Preserving is a metamagic feat that all Arcane Casters get for free at first level?
One option, and I don't know how useful this is, is for sorceror defilement/preserver to be tied to specific bloodlines. Elemental Sorceror's might be Preservers by default while Dragon Blooded ones are Defilers.
Since AD&D 2E Bards were poison specialists who did not cast spells, Alchemists would actually work better in this setting than PF2 Bards would.
On the other hand, if you are going with psychic = occult, PF2 Bards might work along with occult Sorcerers as representing psionically talented characters.
And since all characters are supposed to have at least a small degree of psionic talent, it might be good to add the ability to cast a single occult cantrip to the character creation process.
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Don't forget, Defilers are reviled, while Preservers are often disbelieved. So, maybe some form of Deception, to make others think they are using Psionics, or divine magic.
And, it is possible to switch from Preserver to Defiler fairly easily (don't use the extra action, or fail the save and continue the spell anyway, however it's chosen), but it's really hard to move from Defiler to Preserver.
: Is there a way to modify Drain Bonded Object to add a Defiling option?
Add a line to the effect there is a 10% chance to regain the spell cast but at he cost Defiling at the time of casting? This way it would be a benefit but players could use it if desperate but at the cost to the environment, to being ostracized/hunted?
There would need to be a mechanic for those that Defile too frequently and are unable to stop. Perhaps a flat check of 5, +2 to the check for each day a spell cast (or each spell for a more addictive mechanic) while Defiling. Once they fail the flat check they would have to Defile when casting unless actively trying not to.
To try and actively preserve and reverse the urge/need to Defile you would need spend 1 Action concentrating to gain control prior to casting while making a flat 15 check. You would need to pass 3 check before being able to gain control again to cast with out additional concentration.
Thoughts?