Clerics not benefitting from their own Heal spells?


Rules Discussion


Please help me parse how Heal works.

Quote:

p343[three-actions] (material, somatic, verbal) You disperse positive energy

in a 30-foot emanation. This targets all living and undead
creatures in the burst.
Quote:

p304 Areas-Sometimes a spell has an area, which can be a burst,

cone, emanation, or line. The method of measuring these
areas can be found on page 456. If the spell originates
from your position, the spell has only an area; if you can
cause the spell’s area to appear farther away from you,
the spell has both a range and an area.
Quote:

p456 Cone- A cone shoots out from you in a quarter circle on the grid.

When you aim a cone, the first square of that cone must
share an edge with your space if you’re aiming orthogonally,
or it must touch a corner of your space if you’re aiming
diagonally. If you’re Large or larger, the first square can
run along the edge of any square of your space. You can’t
aim a cone so that it overlaps your space.

Emanation- An emanation issues forth from each side of your space,
extending out to a specified number of feet in all directions.
For instance, the bless spell’s emanation radiates 5 or more
feet outward from the caster. Because the sides of a target’s
space are used as the starting point for the emanation, an
emanation from a Large or larger creature affects a greater
overall area than that of a Medium or smaller creature.

It would appear that clerics do not personally benefit from either the 3 action 30 feet emanation version of Heal or the 60 feet cone version (for clerics with the Directed Channel class feat). After looking through the spell descriptions for emanations, they all are either explicitly obvious that the caster is affected or include deliberate language such as "You and your allies" for an emanation that would by default not include the caster due to the emanation rules. (Bless, Triple Time, Inspire Defence, etc.)

Was this really the intent that clerics don't benefit from the 3 action Heal spell? It appears that clerics are totally out of luck on a 60 feet cone, and probably also the 30 feet emanation.


Nothing you quoted indicates that you wouldn't be effected by an emanation spell, when are you getting that?

Probably right on cone though, but that makes sense honestly. Be weird if you could include yourself in cone spells as a general rule and it'd be terrible if you just were included in them by default, considering most are attack spells.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Edge93 wrote:
Nothing you quoted indicates that you wouldn't be effected by an emanation spell, when are you getting that?

But he did quote it: An emanation issues forth from each side of your space, extending out to a specified number of feet in all directions.

Emanations, by default, are donuts, not circles.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

It depends on if you also occupy the "side" of your space.


I doubt you occupy the side of your space. If you do, then there's a bunch of offensive actions and spells that damage all creatures in the emanation that suddenly affect the user. There's a few things like Circle of Protection and the second Destruction Domain power where the wording makes a little more sense if the author was assuming that the center person of an emanation is in the emanation, but for the most part the book is written as though the person in the emanation is not by default included in the emanation (or else is agnostic, with wordings that would make sense either way.)


I see it as a fair trade off, advanced healing AoE but you cannot heal yourself with it.


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I agree with your parsing (i.e. clerics lose), but I consider it a mistake, that might possibly be fixed via FAQ/errata.


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Emanations don't target your own square, on purpose. A lot of AoE attacks are emanations and it'd be pretty bad if you hit yourself with them every time.

The confusing thing about heal is that it says it's a 30 foot Emanation but it also says it targets all creatures in the Burst. Bursts do target all squares in their radius.

I'm not sure if one of them is a mistake, or if it's meant to convey that it's shaped like an emanation but targeted like a burst, but that distinction is going to decide whether or not the cleric receives their own healing.


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
I see it as a fair trade off, advanced healing AoE but you cannot heal yourself with it.

Well the trade off in healing power is immense when compared to the 2 action variant. For 2 actions you get range 30 and approx. 12.5 points of healing.

In order to get the same healing out of the 30 range 3 action AoE you need at least a party size of 5 (or respective familiars / animal companions). Because even if you heal all 3 others in a "standard" party of 4 you only get 13.5 points of healing out of your AoE.

The 3 action variant is of course not obsolete because it can damage undead in addition to the healing and it targets multiple allies, however if the cleric is not included and regarding the average amount of healing done it is not stronger than the 2 action variant .

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Heal wrote:
[three-actions] (material, somatic, verbal) You disperse positive energy in a 30-foot emanation. This targets all living and undead creatures in the burst.
Harm wrote:
[three-actions] (material, verbal, somatic) You disperse positive energy in a 30-foot emanation. This targets all living and undead creatures in the area.
Burst, page 456-457 wrote:
A burst effect issues forth in all directions from a single corner of a square within the range of the effect, spreading in all directions to a specified radius. For instance, when you cast fireball, it detonates at the corner of a square within 500 feet of you and creates a 20-foot burst, meaning it extends out 20 feet in every direction from the corner of the square you chose, affecting each creature whose space (or even one square of its space) is within the burst.

Heal is an Emanation and a Burst. Emanation in this case deals with how the ability starts (from your sides), and Burst means it targets everything.

(Yes the are aware that Harm says positive energy for the 3A version, it’s on the list of typos)


Oh, wow, I don't think I would have noticed that in a hundred years. If that's actually intended, it seems super easy to miss; none of the other abilities that are supposed to hit everybody in the emanation and also the caster rely on that terminology. It's also hard to tell what the shape of that burst is actually supposed to be; if it's intended to be a burst, then yes, it should hit the cleric, but if it's intended to be a burst than it should also require slicing off a square from one of the sides of the emanation (more if the cleric is larger), because a 30-foot burst doesn't have the same diameter as a 30-foot emanation. I can't see any reasonable way to parse the sentence that means "pretend that this is a burst when you're determining its shape for the purposes of deciding whether the caster's square is included, but don't pretend that this is a burst when you're determining its shape for the purposes of deciding anything else about its shape." I can't imagine that that's intended. There's no way on earth to determine which pieces of an emanation's shape and which pieces of a burst's shape you're supposed to stitch together if you're not starting with PF1e assumptions about how channel energy works.

I'd argue that even if that is how it's supposed to work, it should be errata'd to use the same terminology as the other dozen "hits everything in the emanation and also you" game options instead of hoping that people will understand that it inherits some but not all of the shape rules from bursts.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
I agree with your parsing (i.e. clerics lose), but I consider it a mistake, that might possibly be fixed via FAQ/errata.

It reminds me of how no one, not even Druids, can cast Magic Fang on themselves. These changes could be on purpose, but they feel really weird.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Joyd wrote:

Oh, wow, I don't think I would have noticed that in a hundred years. If that's actually intended, it seems super easy to miss; none of the other abilities that are supposed to hit everybody in the emanation and also the caster rely on that terminology. It's also hard to tell what the shape of that burst is actually supposed to be; if it's intended to be a burst, then yes, it should hit the cleric, but if it's intended to be a burst than it should also require slicing off a square from one of the sides of the emanation (more if the cleric is larger), because a 30-foot burst doesn't have the same diameter as a 30-foot emanation. I can't see any reasonable way to parse the sentence that means "pretend that this is a burst when you're determining its shape for the purposes of deciding whether the caster's square is included, but don't pretend that this is a burst when you're determining its shape for the purposes of deciding anything else about its shape." I can't imagine that that's intended. There's no way on earth to determine which pieces of an emanation's shape and which pieces of a burst's shape you're supposed to stitch together if you're not starting with PF1e assumptions about how channel energy works.

I'd argue that even if that is how it's supposed to work, it should be errata'd to use the same terminology as the other dozen "hits everything in the emanation and also you" game options instead of hoping that people will understand that it inherits some but not all of the shape rules from bursts.

One of the design goals for 2e was avoiding abilities that have the line “counts as” but weren’t actually those abilities.

For Heal it’s not a Burst that counts as an Emanation nor a Emanation that turns into a Burst. It’s both. Much easier and less cumbersome in the long run than “it’s a Emanation except...”

Scarab Sages

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Is it really both or is that a typo? I'm really curious where the error lies, as there definitely is an error in the ability. Is it an emanation or a burst? Why is heal different than harm in this regard? Are emanation's supposed to include the caster? How does synaptic pulse work as a 30ft emanation with a 30ft range? If heal is supposed to include the cleric, why wasn't the area written as "a 30ft burst centered on you" like sanctified ground is? Why is Bless written strangely so that you can read it as "you" and also "your allies in the area" or as "you while in the area and your allies in the area" when the spell is an emanation? If you cast circle of protection on yourself, does it not affect you?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

No typo. It’s both an Emanation and a Burst.

Harm isn’t a Burst as well because blasting yourself is not a good idea.

Sanctified Ground is “centered on you” because it has no range. Its still otherwise follows the normal Burst rules.

Bless was, if I had to guess, written that way to avoid vague language of “any ally you can touch” or something.

CoP “10-foot emanation centered on the touched creature”

Synaptic Pulse I agree is oddly worded or has a typo. As is you can target a creature and have the blast originate from there.

Heal is written differently due to that the targeting changes depending on what Actions you spend on it. Presumably having it be both an Emanation and a Burst was deemed a better way to write the 3A action versions rather than “You disperse positive energy in a 30-foot emanation that also affects yourself. This targets all living and undead creatures.” Or something.


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zer0darkfire wrote:
Is it really both or is that a typo? I'm really curious where the error lies, as there definitely is an error in the ability. Is it an emanation or a burst? Why is heal different than harm in this regard? Are emanation's supposed to include the caster? How does synaptic pulse work as a 30ft emanation with a 30ft range? If heal is supposed to include the cleric, why wasn't the area written as "a 30ft burst centered on you" like sanctified ground is? Why is Bless written strangely so that you can read it as "you" and also "your allies in the area" or as "you while in the area and your allies in the area" when the spell is an emanation? If you cast circle of protection on yourself, does it not affect you?

Why do you think Bless is written strangly? For me it is the clearest of the bunch.

Quote:
Area 5-foot emanation; Targets you and allies in the area

Scarab Sages

Yes, we know how it works, but what does "you and your allies in the area" imply? Is the cleric in the area or not? You can read it in two ways, on one hand, the cleric is not in the area so its explicitly included, on the other hand, it implies that the cleric is always in the area because it says "in the area" and includes the cleric and their allies.


Its clear that he is not in the area because this is how emenations work and therefore needs to be included, else the addition of "you" does not make any sense.
.
.
.
XXXXX
XOOOX
XOXOX
XOOOX
XXXXX

X = not in 5 foot area emanation.
O = in 5 foot area emanation.

Scarab Sages

You're missing my point here, does this indicate there is an error with emanation spells in general or only specific spells? Nothing in emanation technically says you're not included in your own spell, we are simply reading into the fact that an emanation extends from "each side of your space". Looking at offensive emanations, it still isn't clear because they all seem to specify enemies or that you can choose who is affected.


zer0darkfire wrote:
Nothing in emanation technically says you're not included in your own spell, we are simply reading into the fact that an emanation extends from "each side of your space".

It's pretty clear to me (and most people I've talked to) that that's exactly what that means. Because that's what it says, right there. It extends from each side of the square.

Scarab Sages

Squiggit wrote:
zer0darkfire wrote:
Nothing in emanation technically says you're not included in your own spell, we are simply reading into the fact that an emanation extends from "each side of your space".
It's pretty clear to me (and most people I've talked to) that that's exactly what that means. Because that's what it says, right there. It extends from each side of the square.

So does heal/harm include the caster or not if it's clear?


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Heal is specifically ambiguous because it uses language for both emanations and bursts, which have different rules. I think the intent is that it hits like a burst, so I'd say yes, but there's a little ambiguity there, just not for the reason you mentioned.

Harm only uses the phrase emanation, so it definitely doesn't include the caster.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The 3A action of Heal includes the Caster because it says Burst as well. The 3A Harm does not because it does not say Burst.


Shouldn't Harm & Heal work the same?
I'm not saying they do, nor am I saying the wording is clear.
I'm saying negative healing creatures who can cast Harm should be able to hit themselves with an AoE Harm if a regular living Cleric can do the opposite.

And Harm Clerics should still be able to exclude themselves from an AoE if they'd be hurt by it, as should Heal Clerics if hurt by positive energy.
It's likely some PC Dhampir Clerics will fall into this niche category.

All of this seems basic to the point that the spells need rewriting, both for clarity and balance. Otherwise the intention behind the difference should be shared.

Scarab Sages

Rysky wrote:
The 3A action of Heal includes the Caster because it says Burst as well. The 3A Harm does not because it does not say Burst.

A spell cannot be both a burst and an emanation according to the spell section of the rulebook, so in my mind heal should be a burst effect. For harm, I feel like it should be a burst that states that you can choose to include yourself if you want to otherwise undead clerics with minions get the short end of the stick there.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Castilliano wrote:

Shouldn't Harm & Heal work the same?

I'm not saying they do, nor am I saying the wording is clear.
I'm saying negative healing creatures who can cast Harm should be able to hit themselves with an AoE Harm if a regular living Cleric can do the opposite.
Undead Clerics most likely will have an accommodation for this, there’s not currently any PC options to do this.
Quote:
It's likely some PC Dhampir Clerics will fall into this niche category.

If they keep their hurt by Positive, healed by Negative when used as a PC option that is.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
zer0darkfire wrote:
Rysky wrote:
The 3A action of Heal includes the Caster because it says Burst as well. The 3A Harm does not because it does not say Burst.
A spell cannot be both a burst and an emanation according to the spell section of the rulebook, so in my mind heal should be a burst effect. For harm, I feel like it should be a burst that states that you can choose to include yourself if you want to otherwise undead clerics with minions get the short end of the stick there.

Where does it state that?


If it's both an emanation and a burst, which is its actual area? There's one square that's in the burst but not the emanation, and there's a bunch of squares that are in the emanation but not the burst. (Assuming, I suppose, because there's no better option, that the undefined-radius burst with no defined origin point has the same radius as the emanation and originates in one of the corners of your square; as written, it is unique among bursts in not explicitly defining the radius.)

Is its area the union of the area covered by the emanation and the area covered by a 30-foot burst centered on one of the corners of your own square? If so, "You disperse positive energy in a 30-foot emanation. This targets all living and undead creatures in the burst" is an extremely strange way to communicate that intent. Invoking the idea of a burst at all is an very weird choice (which is why the many other abilities that want to target an emanation and also you choose the much clearer path of simply also specifying that it affects you). Even if you were going to get the effect to work the way you wanted by making the area the union of an emanation and a burst, you'd never choose to communicate that using the words in Heal.

The wordings of Heal and Harm in the playtest suggest a much more plausible explanation for why Heal's three-action version refers to it as both an emanation and a burst: it's an error. In the playtest, Harm says "You disperse negative energy in a 30-foot [emanation]*. This has the same effect as the two-action version, but it targets all living and undead creatures in the burst and reduces the amount of healing or damage to your spellcasting ability modifier." If the intent was that referring to something as both an emanation and a burst was that you were supposed to infer some of the characteristics of the burst from the characteristics of the emanation, plot both, and use the union, it seems very unlikely that Harm would have been written with that wording, because that makes it hurt the spellcaster. It seems much more likely that the word "burst" was used by mistake in both Heal and Harm, and the mistake was caught in Harm but persisted in Heal. This explanation only requires them to have made one small proofing error instead of a series of absolutely baffling communication choices.

*It technically says 'aura' rather than 'emanation,' because the name of that shape hadn't changed yet.

Scarab Sages

Rysky wrote:
zer0darkfire wrote:
Rysky wrote:
The 3A action of Heal includes the Caster because it says Burst as well. The 3A Harm does not because it does not say Burst.
A spell cannot be both a burst and an emanation according to the spell section of the rulebook, so in my mind heal should be a burst effect. For harm, I feel like it should be a burst that states that you can choose to include yourself if you want to otherwise undead clerics with minions get the short end of the stick there.
Where does it state that?

"Areas

Source Core Rulebook pg. 304
Sometimes a spell has an area, which can be a burst, cone, emanation, or line. The method of measuring these areas can be found on page 456.”

Not and/or, or. A spell cannot be more than one type of area by RAW.

Silver Crusade

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zer0darkfire wrote:
Rysky wrote:
zer0darkfire wrote:
Rysky wrote:
The 3A action of Heal includes the Caster because it says Burst as well. The 3A Harm does not because it does not say Burst.
A spell cannot be both a burst and an emanation according to the spell section of the rulebook, so in my mind heal should be a burst effect. For harm, I feel like it should be a burst that states that you can choose to include yourself if you want to otherwise undead clerics with minions get the short end of the stick there.
Where does it state that?

"Areas

Source Core Rulebook pg. 304
Sometimes a spell has an area, which can be a burst, cone, emanation, or line. The method of measuring these areas can be found on page 456.”

Not and/or, or. A spell cannot be more than one type of area by RAW.

We’re gonna disagree that that’s an absolute.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Joyd wrote:

If it's both an emanation and a burst, which is its actual area? There's one square that's in the burst but not the emanation, and there's a bunch of squares that are in the emanation but not the burst. (Assuming, I suppose, because there's no better option, that the undefined-radius burst with no defined origin point has the same radius as the emanation and originates in one of the corners of your square; as written, it is unique among bursts in not explicitly defining the radius.)

Is its area the union of the area covered by the emanation and the area covered by a 30-foot burst centered on one of the corners of your own square? If so, "You disperse positive energy in a 30-foot emanation. This targets all living and undead creatures in the burst" is an extremely strange way to communicate that intent. Invoking the idea of a burst at all is an very weird choice (which is why the many other abilities that want to target an emanation and also you choose the much clearer path of simply also specifying that it affects you). Even if you were going to get the effect to work the way you wanted by making the area the union of an emanation and a burst, you'd never choose to communicate that using the words in Heal.

The wordings of Heal and Harm in the playtest suggest a much more plausible explanation for why Heal's three-action version refers to it as both an emanation and a burst: it's an error. In the playtest, Harm says "You disperse negative energy in a 30-foot [emanation]*. This has the same effect as the two-action version, but it targets all living and undead creatures in the burst and reduces the amount of healing or damage to your spellcasting ability modifier." If the intent was that referring to something as both an emanation and a burst was that you were supposed to infer some of the characteristics of the burst from the characteristics of the emanation, plot both, and use the union, it seems very unlikely that Harm would have been written with that wording, because that makes it hurt the...

But that’s not how the final version of Harm works. And if the error was in Heal and fixed for Harm why does Harm have the typo stating positive energy?


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Actually, if you look at the Areas images on CRB page 456, the emanation for a Large creature, the same darker-green color that fills the emanation area is used on the corners of the 2x2 space covered by the "L" circle. If the caster's space were not included in the area of an emanation, then the corners around the "L" should be the lighter green of the rest of the grid outside the displayed Areas.

So while they say it emanates out from the sides of the caster's space, I think that's how the explain how to count distance; but if you think about it, a person standing in that space would have at least a few inches from the edges of their actual skin to the edges of their 5' square; yet it seems kind of silly to imagine in-world that the caster sees a 5' box of immunity around themselves. What are they, mimes? Plus, the second sentence under Areas on p.456 starts "An area effect always has a point of origin" - so it makes much more sense to imagine it originating at a point inside the core of the caster's body.

Let's look at other supporting examples from a handful of other spells that are Emanations:
(1) Antimagic Field - I've never seen any version of the game that said the caster at the center of an Antimagic Field was immune to that field.
(2) Bane only targets enemies, so that one works fine either way.
(3) Bless states "You and your allies" because it doesn't affect Enemies, and you never count as your own Ally, so it has to mention You and your Allies to do as intended.
(4) Circle of Protection has always included the person at the center.
(5) Invisibility Sphere - another example of "You and any number of creatures" - and the text goes on to say you are affected as long as you "remain within the spell's area"
(6) Pass Without Trace - similar to above
(7 & 8) Synaptic Pulse and Wail of the Banshee are examples of harmful emanation spells - and one targets only Enemies, the other targets Selected Creatures; so they are written to ensure the caster needn't be affected.
(9) Weapon Storm is actually the outlier. It can be done as an Emanation and affects All Creatures in the area - so this is the spell that needs errata, to clarify that the caster isn't harmed by it.

tl;dr Emanations do include the center of the area by definition; and the Weapon Storm spell needs errata to let the caster be excluded from the Emanation option.


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Rysky wrote:
But that’s not how the final version of Harm works. And if the error was in Heal and fixed for Harm why does Harm have the typo stating positive energy?

Presumably that's another small error that wasn't caught. I have a much easier time believing that that sort of error occurred than that somebody was trying to communicate "This spell's area is the union of a 30-foot burst and a 30-foot emanation. It targets all living and undead creatures in the area," but the words that their brain produced were "You disperse positive energy in a 30-foot emanation. This targets all living and undead creatures in the burst." Even coming up with the idea that a good way to produce that effect is by introducing an overlapping burst instead of using the technology used by the rest of the system is a pretty huge leap. That the author would then have whatever mental spasms are required to then communicate that idea so poorly and have it make it into print requires another leap on top of that. (And also seems wrong; as written, it says that it targets creatures in the burst, but doesn't say anything about the emanation other than that's where positive energy is, which would seem to make the idea of the emanation entirely superfluous.)


Cintra Bristol wrote:
(9) Weapon Storm is...

Also the Mountain Quake feat and Harm the Localized Quake domain power and several monster abilities, although it's possible with some monster abilities that the intent is to hurt or impede the monster as well.

Scarab Sages

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Cintra Bristol wrote:

Actually, if you look at the Areas images on CRB page 456, the emanation for a Large creature, the same darker-green color that fills the emanation area is used on the corners of the 2x2 space covered by the "L" circle. If the caster's space were not included in the area of an emanation, then the corners around the "L" should be the lighter green of the rest of the grid outside the displayed Areas.

So while they say it emanates out from the sides of the caster's space, I think that's how the explain how to count distance; but if you think about it, a person standing in that space would have at least a few inches from the edges of their actual skin to the edges of their 5' square; yet it seems kind of silly to imagine in-world that the caster sees a 5' box of immunity around themselves. What are they, mimes? Plus, the second sentence under Areas on p.456 starts "An area effect always has a point of origin" - so it makes much more sense to imagine it originating at a point inside the core of the caster's body.

Let's look at other supporting examples from a handful of other spells that are Emanations:
(1) Antimagic Field - I've never seen any version of the game that said the caster at the center of an Antimagic Field was immune to that field.
(2) Bane only targets enemies, so that one works fine either way.
(3) Bless states "You and your allies" because it doesn't affect Enemies, and you never count as your own Ally, so it has to mention You and your Allies to do as intended.
(4) Circle of Protection has always included the person at the center.
(5) Invisibility Sphere - another example of "You and any number of creatures" - and the text goes on to say you are affected as long as you "remain within the spell's area"
(6) Pass Without Trace - similar to above
(7 & 8) Synaptic Pulse and Wail of the Banshee are examples of harmful emanation spells - and one targets only Enemies, the other targets Selected Creatures; so they are written to ensure the caster needn't be affected.
(9) Weapon Storm is...

This!

This is entirely what I was trying to explain, but not anywhere as well as you!


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Don't bursts always begin at a grid intersection?

I don't really see how an emanation can also be a burst. The definitions are too different.


Ravingdork wrote:

Don't bursts always begin at a grid intersection?

I don't really see how an emanation can also be a burst. The definitions are too different.

Orthogonal cones always start at the edge of your space, except when they don't, why should bursts be any different?

(The 15 foot cone was wrong in 1st Edition, because it didn't start at the corner of your space. They've changed the language defining cones, so it's now correct, but that means the 30 and 60 foot examples in the book are now wrong)


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Because one rule is weird it's okay for all rules to not really be rules?


vagabond_666 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Don't bursts always begin at a grid intersection?

I don't really see how an emanation can also be a burst. The definitions are too different.

Orthogonal cones always start at the edge of your space, except when they don't, why should bursts be any different?

(The 15 foot cone was wrong in 1st Edition, because it didn't start at the corner of your space. They've changed the language defining cones, so it's now correct, but that means the 30 and 60 foot examples in the book are now wrong)

How should the correct 30 and 60 cone look properly? Could you provide a correct image? Cones were already hard for me to wrap my head around due to certain visual and geometric disabilities, and this is only making them worse.


Ravingdork wrote:
Because one rule is weird it's okay for all rules to not really be rules?

It was sarcasm. They really should have taken the opportunity to redefine all areas to function consistently but we've got what we've got and it's too fundamental to think they'd errata it now.

(I'd have gone with everything starts at the center of a square "0" and you measure all areas with "could you walk there from zero?" ignoring walls as appropriate, or walking around them for spreads. Draw two lines from the center at 90 degrees to each other for a cone, only squares fully inside the lines are effected, and all squares of a large creature count as "0", except for lines and cones where they pick which one they want it to be.)


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WHW wrote:
How should the correct 30 and 60 cone look properly? Could you provide a correct image? Cones were already hard for me to wrap my head around due to certain visual and geometric disabilities, and this is only making them worse.

https://imgur.com/gallery/OWqrMai

is my interpretation of the 30 foot cone.


Thank you very much!

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