Highest damage at lvl 6?


Advice

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
(Also the rules for grappling in this game are dumb)
I am curious to know what your problems with the rules are.

The reason I don't like them is because they're not clear.

It doesn't matter who's right, you and I disagree on how they work. The grappling rules are much more involved than any other combat maneuver and to find the relevant rules we have to look in a few different places. When we get everything together there can STILL be a disagreement based on the wording.

I think if the majority (or at least a large minority) of the players can't work out a rule - or disagree on a rule - then it's a problem.

I'm curious how they handled grappling in Starfinder/PF2, but I agree that this is probably a topic for another thread.


Wonderstell wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I don't think the OP specified the Damage had to be concentrated on a single opponent.
Oops, yes, he did.

Yup, they also provided the AC of 24, so your attack bonus is rather important to the build.

Neither Panther Style or Broken Wing Gambit are feats you'll want to focus on, though. OP wanted an Assassin who could kill an enemy before their first turn happens, which means that any feats that depend on enemies making Attacks of Opportunities aren't a good choice since they're flat-footed.

Also, have you considered using spoilers for your builds?

Actually, I don't know how to use the spoilers thing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

[spoiler*=Scott's Build]

Everything in here!

[/spoiler]

Just remove the asterisk (this one: *) just before the equal sign, and it should be good to go.

Dark Archive

Anyone good at the formula to figure out % chances to hit and actual dpr?

I feel we need a new DPR OLYMPICS thread


I just learned a new trick:
The butler did it!
, but I'm still an old dog.


So, the OP is trying to make an assassin character, and so far our advice has been focused on creating a character with the most devastating Full Attack in a level 6 character. This has been at the OP's request, but still, I have a concern.

You can't normally Move up to someone and then deliver a Full Attack. How do we accomplish that?

Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, or the Ninja Vanishing Trick, or just a high Stealth Check.

Dimension Door ends the round unless you take special feats that you can't get working before like 9th level.

Arcanists' Dimensional Slide does not end the turn: it's dones as part of the Move, but you still can't Full Attack after a Move Action.

If somebody else DimDoors you, then you can Full Attack on arrival. DimDoor only ends the caster's turn.

I was wondering about the option of taking Improved Familiar and getting a Familiar that can DimDoor you. So far, the only one I have been able to find is the Ratling Familiar, but they're not available until level 7.

I suspect that the OPs strategy of a perhaps-magically-assisted Stealth approach to the target followed by the devastating attack is the way to go if you are impatient to get there by level 6.

Dark Archive

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So, the OP is trying to make an assassin character, and so far our advice has been focused on creating a character with the most devastating Full Attack in a level 6 character. This has been at the OP's request, but still, I have a concern.

You can't normally Move up to someone and then deliver a Full Attack. How do we accomplish that?

Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, or the Ninja Vanishing Trick, or just a high Stealth Check.

Dimension Door ends the round unless you take special feats that you can't get working before like 9th level.

Arcanists' Dimensional Slide does not end the turn: it's dones as part of the Move, but you still can't Full Attack after a Move Action.

If somebody else DimDoors you, then you can Full Attack on arrival. DimDoor only ends the caster's turn.

I was wondering about the option of taking Improved Familiar and getting a Familiar that can DimDoor you. So far, the only one I have been able to find is the Ratling Familiar, but they're not available until level 7.

I suspect that the OPs strategy of a perhaps-magically-assisted Stealth approach to the target followed by the devastating attack is the way to go if you are impatient to get there by level 6.

Actually my build just uses a standard action to vital strike. Still has a move action available


Name Violation wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

So, the OP is trying to make an assassin character, and so far our advice has been focused on creating a character with the most devastating Full Attack in a level 6 character. This has been at the OP's request, but still, I have a concern.

You can't normally Move up to someone and then deliver a Full Attack. How do we accomplish that?

Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, or the Ninja Vanishing Trick, or just a high Stealth Check.

Dimension Door ends the round unless you take special feats that you can't get working before like 9th level.

Arcanists' Dimensional Slide does not end the turn: it's dones as part of the Move, but you still can't Full Attack after a Move Action.

If somebody else DimDoors you, then you can Full Attack on arrival. DimDoor only ends the caster's turn.

I was wondering about the option of taking Improved Familiar and getting a Familiar that can DimDoor you. So far, the only one I have been able to find is the Ratling Familiar, but they're not available until level 7.

I suspect that the OPs strategy of a perhaps-magically-assisted Stealth approach to the target followed by the devastating attack is the way to go if you are impatient to get there by level 6.

Actually my build just uses a standard action to vital strike. Still has a move action available

I noticed!


I wrote:

You can't normally Move up to someone and then deliver a Full Attack. How do we accomplish that?

Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, or the Ninja Vanishing Trick, or just a high Stealth Check.

So, if you take 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dance Archetype, you can give all your allies the ability to see through fire and Smoke. It's called Song of Fiery Gaze. Then get yourself an Eversmoking Bottle or just cast Pyrotechnics, and then you cover the whole battlefield with blinding smoke that you and your allies can see through.

Also, you get your Sneak Attack Damage.


Name Violation wrote:
Anyone good at the formula to figure out % chances to hit and actual dpr?

I can do it.

I need your:
- Bonus to hit
- Damage on a non-critical hit
- Critical threat range
- Damage on a critical hit
(- if you have more than 1 attack tell me how many and what penalties each takes, eg: Four attacks, Two at full BAB, One at -5 BAB and One at -10 BAB)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So I checked through this thread, and I really like the Vital Strike build, so I think I'm going to snag your Cyclops Helm for my own use and see if I can't snag top spot in the "no buffing rounds" category. This build will use standard WBL for a 6th level character and presume no rounds for buffing, just roll for initiative and try to kill your target in 1 round (so swift/free action buffs are still fine).

Once again I'll be jousting with a lance build, this time as a Weapon Master Fighter 4 / Barbarian 2

Fighter/Barbarian:

Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Weapon Focus (Lance), Advanced Weapon Training (Warrior Spirit)
Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
Equipment: +1 lance (2310 gp), +2 belt of giant strength (4000 gp), cyclops helm (5600 gp)
Strength: 28 (18 + 4 racial + 2 belt + 4 rage)

Note that the +3 enhancement bonus is coming from his Warrior Spirit ability. This allows him to, as a free action, grant his weapon any +1 equivalent property. He chooses the raging property, which increases the enhancement bonus of the weapon by +2 while he is actively raging, hence it is a +3 weapon while raging.

To Hit: +22 (6 BAB + 9 strength + 3 enhancement + 1 weapon focus + 1 weapon training + 2 Reckless Abandon + 2 charge -2 power attack)
Damage: 1d8+23 (+13 from str, +3 enhancement, +1 weapon training, +6 power attack)
24-31 damage before multipliers


Using the Cyclops Helm that guarantees a hit and a critical threat, and with +22 to hit confirmation is virtually guaranteed against most level-appropriate foes. He deals 120-155 damage on a crit (x5 multiplier) and a 72-93 damage on a regular hit (x3 multiplier). Against foes with AC 24 or lower, this averages 134.75 damage on his charge, with a minimum of 72 damage.

Notably this gives a 100% chance to OHKO most CR 6 monsters (since he doesn't even need the crit) a 95% chance to OHKO typical monsters up to CR 9. He retains a chance to OHKO a typical CR 11 monster.

Dark Archive

MrCharisma wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Anyone good at the formula to figure out % chances to hit and actual dpr?

I can do it.

I need your:
- Bonus to hit
- Damage on a non-critical hit
- Critical threat range
- Damage on a critical hit
(- if you have more than 1 attack tell me how many and what penalties each takes, eg: Four attacks, Two at full BAB, One at -5 BAB and One at -10 BAB)

Attack: +18, 8d6+27 (average 55) crit 20x3

Vital strike: 16d6+27 (average 83)
Furious focus: 123 damage (max damage, fatigued)
Cyclops helm crit furious finish vital strike: 123+16d6+54. (Average 233)

Assume using cyclops helm to auto 20 the hit and furious finish to maximize vital strike


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Name Violation wrote:


Attack: +18, 8d6+27 (average 55) crit 20x3
Vital strike: 16d6+27 (average 83)
Furious focus: 123 damage (max damage, fatigued)
Cyclops helm crit furious finish vital strike: 123+16d6+54. (Average 233)

Assume using cyclops helm to auto 20 the hit and furious finish to maximize vital strike

Against AC 19 (typical of CR 6) that gives you a 95% chance to crit and a 5% chance to hit, for 227.5 average damage

In terms of chances to OHKO a typical monster (based on guideline HP/AC):
CR 9 (or lower) = 100%
CR 10 = 70%
CR 11 = 65%
CR 12 = 55%
CR 13 = 50%
CR 14 = 45%
CR 15 = 38%
CR 16 = 6%
CR 17 = 0%


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I wrote:

You can't normally Move up to someone and then deliver a Full Attack. How do we accomplish that?

Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, or the Ninja Vanishing Trick, or just a high Stealth Check.

So, if you take 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dance Archetype, you can give all your allies the ability to see through fire and Smoke. It's called Song of Fiery Gaze. Then get yourself an Eversmoking Bottle or just cast Pyrotechnics, and then you cover the whole battlefield with blinding smoke that you and your allies can see through.

Also, you get your Sneak Attack Damage.

Tengu, Claws

1Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Sneak Attack 1d6, BAB+1
2S1Bard1: Flame Dancer
3S1B2: Feat, BAB+2
4S1B3: Song of Fiery Gaze, BAB+3
5S1B3Alchemist1: Vivisectionist: Sneak Attack 1d6, Accomplished Sneak Attacker (Sneak Attack +1d6), Mutagen
6S1B3N1Cavalier1: Tactician, Precise Strike (Sneak Attack 1d6), BAB+4

Figure a Helm of the Mammoth Lord so 4 Attacks/round. Bite, Gore, and 2 Claws 4d6 for Sneak Attack, so that's 16d6 for Sneak Attack Damage alone for 56 points of Damage, and that is vs. Flatfooted AC. Figure a 16 ST +2 Belt of Strength, +4 Mutagen, +2 Enlarge Person, 24 ST for a +7 Damage bonus, so that's another +28. The base Damage is 16 for the 4 attacks, so that's only 100 points of Damage, but he gives the whole party Total Cover, and Grants 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage to the whole party.

That seems like a respectable consideration.

Dark Archive

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I wrote:

You can't normally Move up to someone and then deliver a Full Attack. How do we accomplish that?

Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, or the Ninja Vanishing Trick, or just a high Stealth Check.

So, if you take 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dance Archetype, you can give all your allies the ability to see through fire and Smoke. It's called Song of Fiery Gaze. Then get yourself an Eversmoking Bottle or just cast Pyrotechnics, and then you cover the whole battlefield with blinding smoke that you and your allies can see through.

Also, you get your Sneak Attack Damage.

Tengu, Claws

1Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Sneak Attack 1d6, BAB+1
2S1Bard1: Flame Dancer
3S1B2: Feat, BAB+2
4S1B3: Song of Fiery Gaze, BAB+3
5S1B3Alchemist1: Vivisectionist: Sneak Attack 1d6, Accomplished Sneak Attacker (Sneak Attack +1d6), Mutagen
6S1B3N1Cavalier1: Tactician, Precise Strike (Sneak Attack 1d6), BAB+4

Figure a Helm of the Mammoth Lord so 4 Attacks/round. Bite, Gore, and 2 Claws 4d6 for Sneak Attack, so that's 16d6 for Sneak Attack Damage alone for 56 points of Damage, and that is vs. Flatfooted AC. Figure a 16 ST +2 Belt of Strength, +4 Mutagen, +2 Enlarge Person, 24 ST for a +7 Damage bonus, so that's another +28. The base Damage is 16 for the 4 attacks, so that's only 100 points of Damage, but he gives the whole party Total Cover, and Grants 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage to the whole party.

That seems like a respectable consideration.

How is precise strike triggering without an ally or solo tactics?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It occurs to me, if we're allowing UMD'ing consumables like scrolls, why aren't we using True Strike on the Vital Strike builds? Then we don't even need to care about accuracy and can focus entirely on damage output. With the use of a scroll of True Strike, I think I could go with enlarged firearms and just eat the dex penalty, so I think I'll try building that:

Goblin Trench Fighter 5 / Urban Barbarian 1

Spoiler:

Equipment: Double Hackbut, cyclops helm, potion of cat's grace, potion of enlarge person, scroll of Named Bullet (Ranger; CL 20), Scroll of Magic Weapon (CL 20), scroll of True Strike
Dex score: 28 (18 +4 racial, +4 rage, +4 cat's grace, -2 size)
Feats: Deadly Aim, Vital Strike, Furious Finish, Advanced Weapon Training (Warrior Spirit), Goblin Gunslinger, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms)

In terms of buffing, that's Potion of Enlarge Person, Potion of Cat's Grace, Scroll of Magic Weapon, Warrior Spirit (apply Thundering Property), Scroll of Named Bullet, and lastly the scroll of True Strike. Then Rage and Cyclops Helm on the Vital Finisher attack with the (now large-sized) Double Hackbut.

To Hit: +39 (6 BAB + 9 dex +5 enhancement, +1 weapon training +20 true strike -2 Deadly Aim)
Damage: 6d6+1d8+35 (+9 dex +1 weapon training +5 enhancement +20 named shot)
Vital Strike Damage: 12d6+1d8+35 (111.5 avg on finisher)
Vital Finish Crit: 107 + 3d8 + 18d6 + 105 (288.5 avg, 233 min)


Given a 95% chance to crit and a 5% chance to hit thanks to Cyclops Helm, that gives 279.65 damage average against anything with AC 40 or lower. Unless I made a mistake somewhere (which is entirely possible, so please correct me if I made an error) I do believe that puts me in the lead. At least until someone else does something obscene with True Strike.

Also, in terms of OHKO'ing monster:
CR 8 or below: 100% chance to kill
CR 9-16: 95% chance to kill
CR 17: 94% chance to kill
CR 18: 8.75% chance to kill

Dark Archive

Dasrak wrote:

It occurs to me, if we're allowing UMD'ing consumables like scrolls, why aren't we using True Strike on the Vital Strike builds? Then we don't even need to care about accuracy and can focus entirely on damage output. With the use of a scroll of True Strike, I think I could go with enlarged firearms and just eat the dex penalty, so I think I'll try building that:

Goblin Trench Fighter 5 / Urban Barbarian 1
** spoiler omitted **
Given a 95% chance to crit and a 5% chance to hit thanks to Cyclops Helm, that gives 279.65 damage average against anything with AC 40 or lower. Unless I made a mistake somewhere (which is entirely possible, so please correct me if I made an error) I do believe that puts me in the lead. At least until someone else does something obscene with True Strike.

Also, in terms of OHKO'ing monster:
CR 8 or below: 100% chance to kill
CR 9-16: 95% chance to kill
CR 17: 94% chance to kill
CR 18: 8.75% chance to kill

Doesn't enlarged not do any thing for ranged attacks?

Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.


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@Name Violation

The trick is that your ranged weapon was already large, and you've enlarged yourself to be able to use it.

====

I kinda feel we've left the original character concept behind in pursuit of numbers. The idea was to make a playable assassin that could dish out big numbers, probably more than once per day/career.

Maybe someone should start up a DPR thread since people seem to be in the mood? It's probably best to get some rules going, though.
Like all stats are taken from the Average Monster stats document, that the build must be able to deal this kind of damage at least twice per day, rounds of buffing allowed, etc.


Name Violation wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I wrote:

You can't normally Move up to someone and then deliver a Full Attack. How do we accomplish that?

Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, or the Ninja Vanishing Trick, or just a high Stealth Check.

So, if you take 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dance Archetype, you can give all your allies the ability to see through fire and Smoke. It's called Song of Fiery Gaze. Then get yourself an Eversmoking Bottle or just cast Pyrotechnics, and then you cover the whole battlefield with blinding smoke that you and your allies can see through.

Also, you get your Sneak Attack Damage.

Tengu, Claws

1Brawler1: Snakebite Striker, Sneak Attack 1d6, BAB+1
2S1Bard1: Flame Dancer
3S1B2: Feat, BAB+2
4S1B3: Song of Fiery Gaze, BAB+3
5S1B3Alchemist1: Vivisectionist: Sneak Attack 1d6, Accomplished Sneak Attacker (Sneak Attack +1d6), Mutagen
6S1B3N1Cavalier1: Tactician, Precise Strike (Sneak Attack 1d6), BAB+4

Figure a Helm of the Mammoth Lord so 4 Attacks/round. Bite, Gore, and 2 Claws 4d6 for Sneak Attack, so that's 16d6 for Sneak Attack Damage alone for 56 points of Damage, and that is vs. Flatfooted AC. Figure a 16 ST +2 Belt of Strength, +4 Mutagen, +2 Enlarge Person, 24 ST for a +7 Damage bonus, so that's another +28. The base Damage is 16 for the 4 attacks, so that's only 100 points of Damage, but he gives the whole party Total Cover, and Grants 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage to the whole party.

That seems like a respectable consideration.

How is precise strike triggering without an ally or solo tactics?

Tactician. Cavaliers can, as a Standard Action, give all their allied use of their bonus Teamwork Feat for 3 Rounds


Name Violation wrote:
I feel we need a new DPR OLYMPICS thread
Wonderstell wrote:
Maybe someone should start up a DPR thread since people seem to be in the mood? It's probably best to get some rules going, though.

It seems to me that this is a DPR thread, pretty much. The OP was asking for Maximum Damage in 1 Round in a level 6 character, and his concept was assassin, if not Assassin.

Wonderstell wrote:
I kinda feel we've left the original character concept behind in pursuit of numbers. The idea was to make a playable assassin that could dish out big numbers, probably more than once per day/career.

I think we mostly have been, and remember that numbers were an important part of the OP's request. IIRC, his order was a tall order.


Name Violation wrote:
Dasrak wrote:

It occurs to me, if we're allowing UMD'ing consumables like scrolls, why aren't we using True Strike on the Vital Strike builds? Then we don't even need to care about accuracy and can focus entirely on damage output. With the use of a scroll of True Strike, I think I could go with enlarged firearms and just eat the dex penalty, so I think I'll try building that:

Goblin Trench Fighter 5 / Urban Barbarian 1
** spoiler omitted **
Given a 95% chance to crit and a 5% chance to hit thanks to Cyclops Helm, that gives 279.65 damage average against anything with AC 40 or lower. Unless I made a mistake somewhere (which is entirely possible, so please correct me if I made an error) I do believe that puts me in the lead. At least until someone else does something obscene with True Strike.

Also, in terms of OHKO'ing monster:
CR 8 or below: 100% chance to kill
CR 9-16: 95% chance to kill
CR 17: 94% chance to kill
CR 18: 8.75% chance to kill

Doesn't enlarged not do any thing for ranged attacks?

Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.

Mark Seifter figured out a workaround. He would carry around a quiver of Size Large Arrows. He would drop them on the ground, cast Enlarge, then pick them up again. His Enlarged Bow would then fire proper-Large Arrows.


Wonderstell wrote:
I kinda feel we've left the original character concept behind in pursuit of numbers. The idea was to make a playable assassin that could dish out big numbers, probably more than once per day/career.
The original character given by the OP required 4 attack rolls to hit for which their solution was "using prescience to ensure hits", an ability with 3+Int uses a day. Also they never gave an attack bonus and my ballpark guess put it in the "needs at least an 11 to hit with the best attack". So "can do it multiple times in a single day" doesn't really seem like the goal. And as for the focus on numbers:
Omagi wrote:
Looking for assistance in building a character capable of this damage output at level 6. Thanks in advance!

That's exactly what the OP asked for. They didn't ask for sneaking, or approaching the target, or anything outside "win at initiative, deal 140 damage against 24 AC". If they ever come back I'm sure they can give us more direction but I don't see any reason these builds wouldn't be what they want. They're all really good at killing a specific target.

Honestly, it sounds like PvP arena combat to me. 24 AC and 140 HP is weirdly specific (AC is CR 10, HP is between CR 10 and 11).

Dark Archive

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Tactician. Cavaliers can, as a Standard Action, give all their allied use of their bonus Teamwork Feat for 3 Rounds

So your mount is there and flanking?

The scenario never stipulated an ally present, so your mount would have to flank to let you get the d6.
Im just looking for consistency. If you can assume a random ally is adjacent then ranged characters need to about for enemy engaged in melee


Name Violation wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Tactician. Cavaliers can, as a Standard Action, give all their allied use of their bonus Teamwork Feat for 3 Rounds

So your mount is there and flanking?

The scenario never stipulated an ally present, so your mount would have to flank to let you get the d6.
Im just looking for consistency. If you can assume a random ally is adjacent then ranged characters need to about for enemy engaged in melee

Interesting point. I was presuming a Player Character who was a member of a party with some kind of mixture of martial and spellcasting characters. It is fair to say that I was doing that with all of the builds I offered on this thread, but This build in particular, with 3 levels in Bard, has a strong support-role element.

I guess the character could have his Mount participating in Flanking, but I wasn't really thinking about a Mount.

The 6th level could be a level in Greensting Scorpion Magus with much the same effect, sacrificing a +1 BAB but gaining other things.


Name Violation wrote:

The scenario never stipulated an ally present, so your mount would have to flank to let you get the d6.

Im just looking for consistency. If you can assume a random ally is adjacent then ranged characters need to about for enemy engaged in melee

Also interesting. What I've been trying to do is think of a variety of approaches to the problem. Recall my first offering has a DPR of 0(ish), but would still be a highly effective assassin.

We haven't had a lot of feedback from the OP.


Name Violation wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Anyone good at the formula to figure out % chances to hit and actual dpr?

I can do it.

I need your:
- Bonus to hit
- Damage on a non-critical hit
- Critical threat range
- Damage on a critical hit
(- if you have more than 1 attack tell me how many and what penalties each takes, eg: Four attacks, Two at full BAB, One at -5 BAB and One at -10 BAB)

Attack: +18, 8d6+27 (average 55) crit 20x3

Vital strike: 16d6+27 (average 83)
Furious focus: 123 damage (max damage, fatigued)
Cyclops helm crit furious finish vital strike: 123+16d6+54. (Average 233)

Assume using cyclops helm to auto 20 the hit and furious finish to maximize vital strike

So with you +18to hit (vs AC24, hit on 6 or higher) and a Butcher's axe (crit on a 20) that looks like:

Chance to miss = 0.25
Chance to hit (no critical threat) = 0.7
Chance to get a critical threat = 0.05
(There's an extra steps but I'll try to post it later when I have a computer)

Non-critical damage = 16d6+27 (~83)
Critical damage = 32d6+81 (~191)
(Also I'm assuming Furious Finish doesn't maximize the critical hit damage, did I remember that right from up-thread?)

66.3 DPR (NO Cyplopse Helm, NO Furious Finish) (normal round)
96.375 DPR (NO Cyplopse Helm, YES Furious Finish) (rage cycling)
164 DPR (YES Cyplopse Helm, NO Furious Finish) (not sure why you'd do this)
205.5 DPR (YES Cyclopse Helm, YES Furious Finish) (1/day boss kill)

(I did all these based on attacking the OP'S 24AC enemy)


MrCharisma wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
(Also the rules for grappling in this game are dumb)
I am curious to know what your problems with the rules are.

The reason I don't like them is because they're not clear.

It doesn't matter who's right, you and I disagree on how they work.

They could have been better written, but I don't think they are unambiguous.

You and I don't agree with the rules themselves, not in this case anyway.

You wrote:

Grapple Check =/= Grapple Attack.

There' nothing in [the] rules that say exactly that

We agree on that: There's nothing in the rules that say that.

MrCharisma wrote:
When we get everything together there can STILL be a disagreement based on the wording.

Where we disagree is you believe those rules have unintended consequences, which I again do not strongly disagree with, but you think those unintended consequences are consequential, and I don't. Our difference here is philosophical one, not a mechanical one.

MrCharisma wrote:
The grappling rules are much more involved than any other combat maneuver

We agree on that.

MrCharisma wrote:
and to find the relevant rules we have to look in a few different places.

Not false, but not fair. We're looking in different places in the same rulebook to figure out 3 things, not just one. We are looking at how an item that is an Armor Add-on, but also a Weapon affects Grappling. So we have to look in the Armor, Weapon, and Grappling sections of the Core Rulebook. I don't think that's unreasonable.

MrCharisma wrote:
I think if the majority (or at least a large minority) of the players can't work out a rule - or disagree on a rule - then it's a problem.

But not necessarily a problem with the way the rules were written, and it's not even necessarily a problem at the gaming table. You see, my editorial advice might not be giving you as much insight into my gaming style as you might think. I am specifically and intentionally couching my advice in terms of the most literal interpretation of the rules as I can partly because I don't want to push my playing style on anybody else. That's part of the reason why I don't like to get into the intent of the rules. As soon as an artist finishes an artwork, it is up to the audience to decide what it means. In this case, Pathfinder is the artwork, Paizo are the artists, and we are the ones who decide what it means. That's a bitter lollipop, but lucky for you it is Paizo, not you that needs to suck on it.

MrCharisma wrote:
I'm curious how they handled grappling in Starfinder/PF2, but I agree that this is probably a topic for another thread.

I'm not emotionally ready to learn a new gaming system, but I am curious, too.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
I'm curious how they handled grappling in Starfinder/PF2, but I agree that this is probably a topic for another thread.

I'm not emotionally ready to learn a new gaming system, but I am curious, too.

In PF2, it's a use of the Athletics skill. 1 action, make an Athletics skill check against the opponent's Fortitude DC (this is their Fortitude save + 10), on a success they gain the grabbed condition for 1 round, on a critical success they gain the restrained condition. On a critical fail they can choose to either grab you or knock you prone. Grabbed condition prevents them from moving and makes them flat-footed, and gives a 20% chance for most kinds of actions to fail. Restrained is basically tied up.

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