Question about casting higher level spells from a scroll


Rules Discussion


When using a staff, the CRB clearly states:

"You can Cast a Spell from a staff only if you have that spell on your spell list, are able to cast spells of the appropriate level, and expend a number of charges from the staff equal to the spell’s level." (page 592)

However, for scrolls, it says:

"To Cast a Spell from a scroll, the spell must appear on your spell list." (page 564)

Nothing about having the appropriate level to cast the spell on the scroll. Was this intentional, or an oversight? If intentional, does that mean that a caster can cast a higher level spell from a scroll just because it appears on their spell list (Arcane, Divine, Occult, Primal)?

Any thoughts on this? Thanks!


I just made nearly the same thread. :)

I think allowing casting from higher level scrolls wouldn't be gamebreaking, as actually getting the higher level scrolls is difficult. Comparing scroll costs to wealth by level shows that purchasing one above your level is very expensive (for example, a level 10 or 11 party could buy a 9th level spell scroll, but would likely use all their resources to do so). If the party is willing to give up that much for one single spell cast, it had better be very powerful.

There's also the matter of actually finding the scroll. Finding a seller for scrolls of that level is generally not possible, as very few beings are that powerful. And they won't find it as loot unless the GM wants them to.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I suspect this is intentional.


Thanks for the replies! I suspect this has something to do with PFS play, but I guess the first errata will show us what the actual intent was/is.


There would have to be some additional restrictions. It simply does not make sense that a level 1 wizard would be able to cast Meteor Swarm with no risk if he happened to find a scroll. That should be like picking up the Tesseract, IMO


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mrspaghetti wrote:
There would have to be some additional restrictions. It simply does not make sense that a level 1 wizard would be able to cast Meteor Swarm with no risk if he happened to find a scroll. That should be like picking up the Tesseract, IMO

That would never happen though unless the GM wanted it to happen.


Ravingdork wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
There would have to be some additional restrictions. It simply does not make sense that a level 1 wizard would be able to cast Meteor Swarm with no risk if he happened to find a scroll. That should be like picking up the Tesseract, IMO
That would never happen though unless the GM wanted it to happen.

My point is that allowing people to cast spells above the level they normally could would have to be specifically addressed in the rules if that were the intent. Since there is absolutely zero mention of it anywhere in the CRB, I cannot believe it was intended to be allowed at all.

EDIT: As to the difficultly of getting the scrolls, it wouldn't be all that difficult for a caster to get scrolls at 1-2 spell levels higher than they can cast. That makes no sense to me and would be pretty game-breaking. Casting Fireball or Lightning Bolt in a first level game, for example, kinda makes any challenge unchallenging. Shouldn't matter how much gold you have, a first-year pianist should not be able to play Impromptu in E Flat Major by Schubert, even if they find the sheet music.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
mrspaghetti wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
There would have to be some additional restrictions. It simply does not make sense that a level 1 wizard would be able to cast Meteor Swarm with no risk if he happened to find a scroll. That should be like picking up the Tesseract, IMO
That would never happen though unless the GM wanted it to happen.

My point is that allowing people to cast spells above the level they normally could would have to be specifically addressed in the rules if that were the intent. Since there is absolutely zero mention of it anywhere in the CRB, I cannot believe it was intended to be allowed at all.

EDIT: As to the difficultly of getting the scrolls, it wouldn't be all that difficult for a caster to get scrolls at 1-2 spell levels higher than they can cast. That makes no sense to me and would be pretty game-breaking. Casting Fireball or Lightning Bolt in a first level game, for example, kinda makes any challenge unchallenging. Shouldn't matter how much gold you have, a first-year pianist should not be able to play Impromptu in E Flat Major by Schubert, even if they find the sheet music.

A scroll of fireball costs 30 gold. That's twice the starting wealth of a 1st level character. Sure, it trivializes a challenge. A single challenge. Then you've still spent all your money and have nothing left for the next challenge.

Also, the assumption you seem to be making is that casting the spell from a scroll is analogous to casting it from a slot. I don't think that's the case. Scrolls are basically already rigged to near completion and you're just taking it the rest of the way. That's why you don't have to provide material components for the spell when you cast it from a scroll. They were already provided in making the scroll.

By comparison, staves actually require you to power them and provide charges. So you couldn't use a staff for the same trick.


Captain Morgan wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
There would have to be some additional restrictions. It simply does not make sense that a level 1 wizard would be able to cast Meteor Swarm with no risk if he happened to find a scroll. That should be like picking up the Tesseract, IMO
That would never happen though unless the GM wanted it to happen.

My point is that allowing people to cast spells above the level they normally could would have to be specifically addressed in the rules if that were the intent. Since there is absolutely zero mention of it anywhere in the CRB, I cannot believe it was intended to be allowed at all.

EDIT: As to the difficultly of getting the scrolls, it wouldn't be all that difficult for a caster to get scrolls at 1-2 spell levels higher than they can cast. That makes no sense to me and would be pretty game-breaking. Casting Fireball or Lightning Bolt in a first level game, for example, kinda makes any challenge unchallenging. Shouldn't matter how much gold you have, a first-year pianist should not be able to play Impromptu in E Flat Major by Schubert, even if they find the sheet music.

A scroll of fireball costs 30 gold. That's twice the starting wealth of a 1st level character. Sure, it trivializes a challenge. A single challenge. Then you've still spent all your money and have nothing left for the next challenge.

Also, the assumption you seem to be making is that casting the spell from a scroll is analogous to casting it from a slot. I don't think that's the case. Scrolls are basically already rigged to near completion and you're just taking it the rest of the way. That's why you don't have to provide material components for the spell when you cast it from a scroll. They were already provided in making the scroll.

By comparison, staves actually require you to power them and provide charges. So you couldn't use a staff for the same trick.

So are you suggesting that one should be able to auto-cast spells of higher level than their casting level allows? No check, no chance of failure or mishap?


mrspaghetti wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
mrspaghetti wrote:
There would have to be some additional restrictions. It simply does not make sense that a level 1 wizard would be able to cast Meteor Swarm with no risk if he happened to find a scroll. That should be like picking up the Tesseract, IMO
That would never happen though unless the GM wanted it to happen.

My point is that allowing people to cast spells above the level they normally could would have to be specifically addressed in the rules if that were the intent. Since there is absolutely zero mention of it anywhere in the CRB, I cannot believe it was intended to be allowed at all.

EDIT: As to the difficultly of getting the scrolls, it wouldn't be all that difficult for a caster to get scrolls at 1-2 spell levels higher than they can cast. That makes no sense to me and would be pretty game-breaking. Casting Fireball or Lightning Bolt in a first level game, for example, kinda makes any challenge unchallenging. Shouldn't matter how much gold you have, a first-year pianist should not be able to play Impromptu in E Flat Major by Schubert, even if they find the sheet music.

A scroll of fireball costs 30 gold. That's twice the starting wealth of a 1st level character. Sure, it trivializes a challenge. A single challenge. Then you've still spent all your money and have nothing left for the next challenge.

Also, the assumption you seem to be making is that casting the spell from a scroll is analogous to casting it from a slot. I don't think that's the case. Scrolls are basically already rigged to near completion and you're just taking it the rest of the way. That's why you don't have to provide material components for the spell when you cast it from a scroll. They were already provided in making the scroll.

By comparison, staves actually require you to power them and provide charges. So you couldn't use a staff for the same trick.

So are you suggesting that one should be able to...

Your phrasing presumes there should be difficulties that haven't been presented in PF2. Or was there a citation I missed? Any casting level allows you to cast any level spell off of a scroll if it's in your tradition (or expanded list for some classes). That's abnormal for previous editions, all the way back to Gygax if I recall correctly. But it's normal for PF2.

Yet since you're the one casting it, and it use your saves, it's a lot less powerful than somebody actually at that level casting it. It's a risky investment, as shown above. And it's well within the control of the GM via setting or the adventure writer.
A fledgling Fighter can also wield a Vorpal Weapon. It's just not going to happen, or not be worth the investment if done before the Fighter's any good with the weapon or has the defenses to survive people who want that weapon.


Castilliano wrote:
...since you're the one casting it, and it use your saves, it's a lot less powerful than somebody actually at that level casting it.

Not really. Consider a Disintegrate spell being used by someone several levels too low to have a 6th level spell slot. Assuming they are playing encounters geared toward their actual level, the targets of the disintegrate will have as much likelihood of saving (or failing to save) vs said Disintegrate spell as they would vs the more level-appropriate Lightning Bolt. The difference being (obviously) that Disintegrate inflicts 12d10 vs 4d12 for Lightning Bolt.

In PFS I understand that PCs are only allowed to get items at level+2 max, so that only gives the ability to cast spells at most 1 slot higher than they normally can. While I don't think that's going to totally break the game, I do prefer the PF1 approach to that issue. That is, I think it should not be automatic - I think there should be a chance of failure or mishap whenever a character is trying to cast something beyond their highest spell slot, whether it be from a scroll or a wand. Or even better, not allowed at all. That to me is the most intuitive and sensible approach, frankly. If any caster can handle spells of any level, why have levels at all?


mrspaghetti wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
...since you're the one casting it, and it use your saves, it's a lot less powerful than somebody actually at that level casting it.

Not really. Consider a Disintegrate spell being used by someone several levels too low to have a 6th level spell slot. Assuming they are playing encounters geared toward their actual level, the targets of the disintegrate will have as much likelihood of saving (or failing to save) vs said Disintegrate spell as they would vs the more level-appropriate Lightning Bolt. The difference being (obviously) that Disintegrate inflicts 12d10 vs 4d12 for Lightning Bolt.

In PFS I understand that PCs are only allowed to get items at level+2 max, so that only gives the ability to cast spells at most 1 slot higher than they normally can. While I don't think that's going to totally break the game, I do prefer the PF1 approach to that issue. That is, I think it should not be automatic - I think there should be a chance of failure or mishap whenever a character is trying to cast something beyond their highest spell slot, whether it be from a scroll or a wand. Or even better, not allowed at all. That to me is the most intuitive and sensible approach, frankly. If any caster can handle spells of any level, why have levels at all?

Yes, it really isn't that powerful if you have to use them against at level opponents to make them effective. That means you won't get your money's worth.

If you're spending that much money on at level opponents, you're bound to die because the treasure won't fund such tactics and/or you'll be short on other equipment you need. GMs typically won't fund such tactics. Adventures as written won't fund such tactics.
A 5th level caster w/ Disintegrate maybe takes out one Troll (Level 5).
If reserved for the boss, they most likely save for 33ish (if it hits), vs. a 3rd level Magic Missile which does 21ish with no saves or misses and which is a free resource.

I think your intuitions are tuned to previous editions. Given Jacobs & Mona are quite Gygaxian, I think they reasoned this out before altering such an aged rule (or allowing the devs to alter it more likely).

I also think the mishap happened when the PC got hold of the scroll, not when they cast from it. It's either a bad investment or an awkward reward. And I think the PFS2 rules for buying above level ties into how generous PFS treasure usually is, but they don't want weapons or permanent items unlocked too early to skew encounter balance. I doubt it's because of consumables, at least not in PF2 where those are overpriced so really only affordable for habitual use at level -4 or thereabouts.

Your preference for a failure or mishap is noted. Inform your players of the rules change and have at it.
Cheers


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also, if the 1st party finds a scroll of fireball in a dungeon and manages to survive without using it, that is a lot more loot for them back in town than if they burned it in one encounter. The DC being set by the character instead of the scroll significantly limits how powerful the spell can be when cast from below level, and the cost to the party of using consumables, in terms of wealth by level is very high. This seems to be how the game was designed to limit itself.

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