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I've had some trouble with magic missile lately too. Really makes me wonder if that's even a real spell.
Thankfully I did manage to cast burning hands the other day though in my apartment, so there's no need to delete every spell.
On a completely unrelated topic, does anyone know how long it takes for burned cat fur to grow back?
I mixed some stuff together in lab and it blew up, so I question the premise.
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Argumentum ad Fireballum.
Realism and fantasy can coexist just fine. I've never had a player ask me why they couldn't walk on the ceiling or grow tentacles out of their eyes or play a race that's a manifestation of concentrated angst; physics works the same. Society works the same. A dragon may be a fantastical beast, but the logic behind how it can fly is still the same as how anything else flies.
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Pathfinder melee combat is far from realistic. If it were realistic, swords would be worthless against most armor, and shields, armor would have DR, polearms would grant AoOs only with great difficultly due to be so cumbersome, -- and most people would die after one of two hits no matter what "level" they were.
If you want more realism, play GURPS. (But you better love d6s, because those are the only dice you get.)
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https://i.warosu.org/.png
That "image" link is making NoScript glow something fierce. I guess talismans work at least.
Wild West legends, basically. Pecos Bill lassoed a tornado with a rattlesnake and shot out all the stars in the sky except one. No magic powers or magic gun, he was just that good.
An interesting perspective and a legitimate point (though I'm fairly sure that Pecos Bill and many other "Wild West legends" were actually invented long after the fact by marketing agencies).
I think that, at some point, you have to assume that the limits of human (or humanoid) behavior are left behind and the realm of the supernatural comes into play.
Take the barbarian rage powers Spellsunder and Spelleater. I mean, someone just gets *mad enough*, and they can break through a spell in the same way they'd break down a door?
Admittedly, I don't play many high-level games, but once spellcasters are able to travel to other planes of existence or alter time, I start giving the martial characters some more options.
A ranger that has a Perception and Survival bonus so high that he effectively has precognition? A fighter so discipline and tough he can keep defending his comrades even after he's technically dead? Yes, please.
What does it mean when you can regularly get a 60 on a Stealth check? When you can survive falling down a 100ft cliff 3 times in a row? At that point, the mundane world as we know it is out of it's depth.
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Y'all are ruining a perfectly good troll thread by seriously beating this long-dead horse.
...Unless it's a metatroll thread now?
There were actually 2 characters in my last campaign that had bonuses to their Stealth rolls that were over 60. The only reason the GM had them even roll for it at all was the chance of a Nat One. I kept thinking, what feats did they take?!
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Look, I'm just saying that high level fighter ought to be able to FLEX hard enough to cause an explosion without people complaining about how it is unrealistic in a fantasy game.
Fight men deserve nice things too you know.
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There were actually 2 characters in my last campaign that had bonuses to their Stealth rolls that were over 60. The only reason the GM had them even roll for it at all was the chance of a Nat One. I kept thinking, what feats did they take?!
but on a nat 1 nothing special happens. It's still a 61 to find them
I don't care if it's realistic; I prefer unrealism in my games, but this has no bearing on what's good for the base game. What I'm confused about is the inconsistency. Why did the devs ever think it was okay to use the capabilities of aging, out of shape game developers as the basis for experienced, skilled heroic fantasy warriors that don't exist in real life? Assuming that this makes sense, why did they not use that same basis for every class, given that all the classes represent characters which are equally imaginary?
Aww, damn, OP untrolled the thread.
Short version: That's just the sort of sword-and-sorcery-plus scenario Pathfinder models--nonmagical types stretch and even somewhat break the bounds of realism, but crazy things require some sort of magic or high technology. There are plenty of other scenarios that do involve warriors cleaving mountains in two or knocking planets out of orbit, and they're no more or less valid as scenarios to model, but Paizo, like WotC and TSR before them, chose what they chose for this game. Fortunately, there are other developers who can provide superpowered martial experiences for those who want that sort of thing.
(Pretty sure even a 1st level fighter can do more than an "aging, out of shape game developer" though.)
I don't care if it's realistic; I prefer unrealism in my games, but this has no bearing on what's good for the base game. What I'm confused about is the inconsistency. Why did the devs ever think it was okay to use the capabilities of aging, out of shape game developers as the basis for experienced, skilled heroic fantasy warriors that don't exist in real life? Assuming that this makes sense, why did they not use that same basis for every class, given that all the classes represent characters which are equally imaginary?
You mean besides the obvious answer?
I wouldn't call a 20th-level fighter or barbarian within real-world limits, magic weapons or otherwise. They just don't have the diverse reality-altering powers that a magical class would have at that level.
You can use burning hands in real life (more or less) if you have a flamethrower.
I wouldn't call a 20th-level fighter or barbarian within real-world limits, magic weapons or otherwise. They just don't have the diverse reality-altering powers that a magical class would have at that level.
A 12th level warrior (the npc class) can wrestle a rhinoceros into submission with no feat expenditure (though would probably want improved grapple at the very least).
Look, I'm just saying that high level fighter ought to be able to FLEX hard enough to cause an explosion without people complaining about how it is unrealistic in a fantasy game.
Fight men deserve nice things too you know.
Oh, I fully agree that high level characters aren't realistic. Specifically HP, BAB (and combat maneuvers), saves, and skills. Basically anything with auto-scaling. But I'm specifically talking about class design (and more specifically class abilities).
The 19th level Fighter ability is DR 5/- while wearing armor or using a shield. At the same level 9th level spells are getting slung around the Fighter gets "can use armor or a shield to take less damage". Literally identical to an optional subsystem they made that gives access to everyone at all levels. That's not a high level ability. In fact, all evidence is that even the developers think it's a 1st level ability.
1 feat and a suit of adamantite plate and that turns into dr 11/- now
There were actually 2 characters in my last campaign that had bonuses to their Stealth rolls that were over 60. The only reason the GM had them even roll for it at all was the chance of a Nat One. I kept thinking, what feats did they take?!but on a nat 1 nothing special happens. It's still a 61 to find them
House rule for the group. Like I said, it was the only way those two could possibly fail a Stealth check at all. Of course, even then it became mute once the one that was a Rogue took a talent that let him Take Ten on Stealth at any time. Or was it a feat? Either way, he just took ten and no one could ever find him.
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In all honesty the title of the thread should be “Why do developers insist on realism for fighters and rogues? “. Other marital classes have abilities that are not realistic. Many martial classes get abilities that stretch or completely break realism. A high level paladin can pick up an ordinary stick and use to demolish something with stronger defenses than a tank. He also has incredible defenses and cast spells. Sure his spells may not be as powerful as a 9th level caster, but he has other abilities as well. Barbarians, Bloodragers, Monks and Rangers also have supernatural abilities. The Ninja basically adds supernatural abilities to a rogue. Whether these abilities are equal to a 9th level spell is another discussion, but the fact is not all Martials are bound by realism.
Some people like to play characters that don’t use magic. If all classes automatically got reality breaking abilities that would not really leave anything for those players.
As to the magic missile maybe you simply don’t know this spell. My stinking could spell seems to work fine, or at least that is what my wife says.
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I think the best option would be to drastically improve skills, such that they complete with spells. This is basically what Kirtfinder did (among other things), and it really helped make the martials cool and interesting without making them feel like spellcasters.
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At what level should martials be allowed to be unrealistic? For instance, jumping (without a magic item) is limited to about 30 feet in real life. The best Olympic jumpers can hit that figure. A fighter in an anti-magic field can exceed that at high levels.
However noone can run as fast as Usain Bolt without magic. Even monks have an enhancement bonus to speed.
And a fighter can (after some levels) survive falls that would kill the toughest person. (Once in a blue moon, someone will survive a fall from an airplane, but that's luck.)
Id say FleetX4+ run feat and you run faster than usain bolt without magic
The one I'm most familiar with was a non-adventuring flight attendant. I guess she had some levels, and kept bumping Con and taking the Toughness feat...How do you know that is luck? They could have that many hp. Have one of those 'lucky' survivors thrown out of a plane again. For science. Just to be fair, make sure the survivor has had at least 12+con mod days of home rest so you are 100% sure he has recovered all of his HP.
And a fighter can (after some levels) survive falls that would kill the toughest person. (Once in a blue moon, someone will survive a fall from an airplane, but that's luck.)
Falling damage caps out a 20d6, so there's a chance the roll was (almost) all 1s.
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Id say FleetX4+ run feat and you run faster than usain bolt without magicAt what level should martials be allowed to be unrealistic? For instance, jumping (without a magic item) is limited to about 30 feet in real life. The best Olympic jumpers can hit that figure. A fighter in an anti-magic field can exceed that at high levels.
However noone can run as fast as Usain Bolt without magic. Even monks have an enhancement bonus to speed.
And a fighter can (after some levels) survive falls that would kill the toughest person. (Once in a blue moon, someone will survive a fall from an airplane, but that's luck.)
Exactly, and better. They can do it consistently until their Con gives out (Bolt only hit his top speed for about 20 meters), and they even keep their Dex bonus to AC.
A human barbarian can do the same while raging at 2nd level thanks to fast movement and the swift foot rage power taking the place of three of those Fleets. They can only hold it as long as their rage, but that's more in line with the real world version.
TL;DR: It doesn't take much to outshine a real world human in Pathfinder RPG.
Id say FleetX4+ run feat and you run faster than usain bolt without magicAt what level should martials be allowed to be unrealistic? For instance, jumping (without a magic item) is limited to about 30 feet in real life. The best Olympic jumpers can hit that figure. A fighter in an anti-magic field can exceed that at high levels.
However noone can run as fast as Usain Bolt without magic. Even monks have an enhancement bonus to speed.
And a fighter can (after some levels) survive falls that would kill the toughest person. (Once in a blue moon, someone will survive a fall from an airplane, but that's luck.)
Exactly, and better. They can do it consistently until their Con gives out (Bolt only hit his top speed for about 20 meters), and they even keep their Dex bonus to AC.
A human barbarian can do the same while raging at 2nd level thanks to fast movement and the swift foot rage power taking the place of three of those Fleets. They can only hold it as long as their rage, but that's more in line with the real world version.
TL;DR: It doesn't take much to outshine a real world human in Pathfinder RPG.
I honestly believe no spell having martial classes getting free/better access to skill unlocks would do a lot for helping them feel better next to casters.
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Currently, magic and psionics aren't known in the word and they don't seem to exist at all.
We play a game of sword and sorcery.
If we limit magic to realism we will play a game of sword and stage tricks.
A lot of monsters and almost any weapon would kill people with one hit, no undead, outsiders, constructs (unless they are a robot with a dumb AI), giant vermins, aberrations, oozes.
Not interested.
If you really want to make magic-users more realistic you could study real world occultism and turn it up to 11. Magic circles, candles, incense, sigils, trances, crystals, alchemy, spirit summoning, basically all the stuff you would find in a book from the New Age section of a bookstore, but with tangible results. Instead of hurling fireballs, casters would be scrying, communing with spirits, making magic talismans, enchanting weapons, and it would all require some kind of ritual. This would dramatically change the role of magic-users and much of the setting. At that point you might as well be playing a different game entirely.
Which is not to say there is anything wrong with realism or deciding to play other games you enjoy more because of it. Squabbling over combat realism vs magic realism is as pointless as arguing over which edition is "best". At the end of the day, if it works well enough for people to play the game, have fun, and feel like they're a mighty warrior or mystical wizard, why worry about it?
So, Occult Adventures, basically.
Nah, anything with actual PF spellcasting would be too much for that. Call of Cthulhu would be a better start.
At what level should martials be allowed to be unrealistic? For instance, jumping (without a magic item) is limited to about 30 feet in real life. The best Olympic jumpers can hit that figure. A fighter in an anti-magic field can exceed that at high levels.
However noone can run as fast as Usain Bolt without magic. Even monks have an enhancement bonus to speed.
And a fighter can (after some levels) survive falls that would kill the toughest person. (Once in a blue moon, someone will survive a fall from an airplane, but that's luck.)
I think the game suggests that there's more to being fast than just land speed, as even cats and leopards have a speed of 30 while having high Dex scores. Imo Usain would just have the run feat and maybe something else.