Discussion - Rebranding of Drow


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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“After twelve years instead of blue I want this race’s skin to turn black to show how evil they are like how it used to be” is a stance deserving of every bit of condescension it generates. Adding “politically correct” was just the cherry there.

The difference between duergar and drow is that dwaves don’t turn into duergar for being evil.

And Katapesh is Neutral because it takes into account the entire population, not just the slave owners.


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Rysky wrote:

“After twelve years instead of blue I want this race’s skin to turn black to show how evil they are like how it used to be” is a stance deserving of every bit of condescension it generates. Adding “politically correct” was just the cherry there.

The difference between duergar and drow is that dwaves don’t turn into duergar for being evil.

And Katapesh is Neutral because it takes into account the entire population, not just the slave owners.

Then it's on you for being hostile and that's not even what anyone is saying. It used to be acceptable in canon, as has been cited so your point is wrong.

It's a society that allows and thrives on Slavery, but somehow it isn't a problem that it isn't Evil? It actually even beats out every single population center in Into the Darklands for slave population.

Silver Crusade

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FrostFox wrote:
Rysky wrote:

“After twelve years instead of blue I want this race’s skin to turn black to show how evil they are like how it used to be” is a stance deserving of every bit of condescension it generates. Adding “politically correct” was just the cherry there.

The difference between duergar and drow is that dwaves don’t turn into duergar for being evil.

And Katapesh is Neutral because it takes into account the entire population, not just the slave owners.

Then it's on you for being hostile and that's not even what anyone is saying. It used to be acceptable in canon, as has been cited so your point is wrong.
My point isn't wrong in the slightest, that that's how "it used to be" is irrelevant. And yes I am hostile to equating evilness with dark skin.
Quote:
It's a society that allows and thrives on Slavery, but somehow it isn't a problem that it isn't Evil? It actually even beats out every single population center in Into the Darklands for slave population.

Yes slavery is evil, no question.

But commonfolk and the slaves compromising the majority of the population don't really get a say in things.


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Rysky wrote:
No no no, you don't get to exclude it just because it was using 3.5's rules.

I didn't - I exclude it because JJ said it was not pathfinder and should not be used as a cannon source.

Quote:


It's more accurate if anything since it's set on Golarion, where Bestiary 1 and the ARG are world neutral.

Not according to the official source.

Quote:
Paizo didn't drop the world neutral stance till Bestiary 6 and Planar Adventures. The ARG was written under a world neutral mindset and thus has conflicting info in places, such as the aforementioned state of Dhampirs.

When looking at the info for Dhampirs - it matches what is in 'blood of the night' - the only place it's changed is PF2. I have no idea where you are getting your information from - but if it's JJ - I wonder why you accept his word for Dhampirs and not for Drow.

Quote:
As for actual "canon" have you ever seen Paizo illustrate a black Drow in Golarion?

Nope. Have no idea why that's relevant at all - I never complained about the art (I loathe the new Ogres in PF2 - because the old ones were unique and cool - but the drow art is pretty badass IMO) - I'm also not asking for drow to be black. I don't understand why that's relevant. This isn't the first time I've said this either.

Yes, English can be weird. It can be understood through tough thorough thought, though.


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Rysky wrote:
FrostFox wrote:
Rysky wrote:

“After twelve years instead of blue I want this race’s skin to turn black to show how evil they are like how it used to be” is a stance deserving of every bit of condescension it generates. Adding “politically correct” was just the cherry there.

The difference between duergar and drow is that dwaves don’t turn into duergar for being evil.

And Katapesh is Neutral because it takes into account the entire population, not just the slave owners.

Then it's on you for being hostile and that's not even what anyone is saying. It used to be acceptable in canon, as has been cited so your point is wrong.
My point isn't wrong in the slightest, that that's how "it used to be" is irrelevant. And yes I am hostile to equating evilness with dark skin.
Quote:
It's a society that allows and thrives on Slavery, but somehow it isn't a problem that it isn't Evil? It actually even beats out every single population center in Into the Darklands for slave population.

Yes slavery is evil, no question.

But commonfolk and the slaves compromising the majority of the population don't really get a say in things.

Except in your commentary about 'After twelve years instead of...' when this is a new change within the last year. In fact, many people had and have issue with it as it exists right now. A pale elf is -still- becoming darker when they change, they're just not becoming darker in the same shade. They're still tying Evil to Color-Change. It's still as shallow as it was.

The city was founded on drugs. Filled with Gangs and addicts. Until the following event as described in LOWG:

The Pactmasters changed that. Seven feet tall, robed and masked to hide their forms, the Pactmasters arrived from parts unknown and took control of the city of Katapesh—and by extension the nation—in a bloodless coup that no records can explain. Though they didn’t end the city’s freewheeling approach to trade, they stabilized and formalized it. Under their guidance, usually fltered through humanoid mouthpieces like Pactbroker Hashim ibn Sayyid, the nation has become perhaps the largest black market in the world, its independence maintained by economic ties and a constabulary of metal constructs known as aluums.

So it's Neutral...but also 'perhaps the largest black market in the world.' Described as having a 'bustling slave trade'.

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Ckorik wrote:
I didn't - I exclude it because JJ said it was not pathfinder and should not be used as a cannon source.
Do you have a source for that quote?
Quote:
Not according to the official source.
Source?
Quote:
When looking at the info for Dhampirs - it matches what is in 'blood of the night' - the only place it's changed is PF2. I have no idea where you are getting your information from
I already told you, the ARG, the faulty world neutral information isn't repeated in Blood of the Night, which is not world neutral.
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- but if it's JJ - I wonder why you accept his word for Dhampirs and not for Drow.
i'm not sure where you got this from.
Quote:
Nope. Have no idea why that's relevant at all - I never complained about the art (I loathe the new Ogres in PF2 - because the old ones were unique and cool - but the drow art is pretty badass IMO) - I'm also not asking for drow to be black. I don't understand why that's relevant. This isn't the first time I've said this either.
It's the crux of the argument.
Quote:
Yes, English can be weird. It can be understood through tough thorough thought, though.

Okay.


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Paradozen wrote:
The further we can get from the concept that dark=evil and light=good the better IMO.

Not in my opinion. Hideous and dark things being evil and bright beautiful things being good is a long standing staple of fantasy. Sure there should be exceptions (otherwise the storytelling aspects of roleplay would get really boring after a time), but to throw it all out seems to me like it wouldn't even be fantasy anymore.

Silver Crusade

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FrostFox wrote:
Except in your commentary about 'After twelve years instead of...' when this is a new change within the last year. In fact, many people had and have issue with it as it exists right now. A pale elf is -still- becoming darker when they change, they're just not becoming darker in the same shade. They're still tying Evil to Color-Change. It's still as shallow as it was.

Paizo Drow have always been blue and purple, there's no change at all there. And a dark skinned Ekujae elf would turn into a blue or purple Drow under the right scenarios of evil. They're not becoming dark skinned, they're turning blue and/or purple.

Quote:

The city was founded on drugs. Filled with Gangs and addicts. Until the following event as described in LOWG:

The Pactmasters changed that. Seven feet tall, robed and masked to hide their forms, the Pactmasters arrived from parts unknown and took control of the city of Katapesh—and by extension the nation—in a bloodless coup that no records can explain. Though they didn’t end the city’s freewheeling approach to trade, they stabilized and formalized it. Under their guidance, usually fltered through humanoid mouthpieces like Pactbroker Hashim ibn Sayyid, the nation has become perhaps the largest black market in the world, its independence maintained by economic ties and a constabulary of metal constructs known as aluums.

So it's Neutral...but also 'perhaps the largest black market in the world.' Described as having a 'bustling slave trade'.

And again, the commonfolk who have the fault to be born there, and the slaves brought there, have no control over the laws of the land.

Silver Crusade

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Ravingdork wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
The further we can get from the concept that dark=evil and light=good the better IMO.
Not in my opinion. Hideous and dark things being evil and bright beautiful things being good is a long standing staple of fantasy. Sure there should be exceptions (otherwise the storytelling aspects of roleplay would get really boring after a time), but to throw it all out seems to me like it wouldn't even be fantasy anymore.

Removing dark skin equaling evil doesn't rob the setting of any amount of fantasy. In the slightest.

Throw a rock, you'll hit something fantastical.


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Rysky wrote:
FrostFox wrote:
Except in your commentary about 'After twelve years instead of...' when this is a new change within the last year. In fact, many people had and have issue with it as it exists right now. A pale elf is -still- becoming darker when they change, they're just not becoming darker in the same shade. They're still tying Evil to Color-Change. It's still as shallow as it was.

Paizo Drow have always been blue and purple, there's no change at all there. And a dark skinned Ekujae elf would turn into a blue or purple Drow under the right scenarios of evil. They're not becoming dark skinned, they're turning blue and/or purple.

Quote:

The city was founded on drugs. Filled with Gangs and addicts. Until the following event as described in LOWG:

The Pactmasters changed that. Seven feet tall, robed and masked to hide their forms, the Pactmasters arrived from parts unknown and took control of the city of Katapesh—and by extension the nation—in a bloodless coup that no records can explain. Though they didn’t end the city’s freewheeling approach to trade, they stabilized and formalized it. Under their guidance, usually fltered through humanoid mouthpieces like Pactbroker Hashim ibn Sayyid, the nation has become perhaps the largest black market in the world, its independence maintained by economic ties and a constabulary of metal constructs known as aluums.

So it's Neutral...but also 'perhaps the largest black market in the world.' Described as having a 'bustling slave trade'.

And again, the commonfolk who have the fault to be born there, and the slaves brought there, have no control over the laws of the land.

Blue and Purple are dark tones. Text descriptions have allowed for Black tones as well.

Rysky wrote:
And again, the commonfolk who have the fault to be born there, and the slaves brought there, have no control over the laws of the land.

Neither do the commoners that were living under the House of Thrune but they're still Evil cities.

Silver Crusade

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FrostFox wrote:
Blue and Purple are dark tones. Text descriptions have allowed for Black tones as well.
They can be, they can also be light tones. And Paizo have never made black drow.
Quote:
Neither do the commoners that were living under the House of Thrune but they're still Evil cities.

A lot more of the of populace are okay with House Thrune, hence the alignment. It's for the average, the general populace, not just the people in charge.


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Rysky wrote:
Do you have a source for that quote?

James Jacobs on Second darkness

Quote:


1) The info about "ALL DROW ARE EVIL" in Second Darkness was from a pre-Pathfinder era where we were facing a culture of gamers who were VERY resistant to the idea of Paizo trying to pawn off a Driz'zt clone to cash in on that character's success, plus we wanted to make sure that what we were doing with drow wasn't trying to cash in on a lot of what Wizards of the Coast was doing with them at the time, so we focused back on the early incarnation of them in the game as demon-worshiping bad guy elves. Since then' we've gone through two edition changes and over a decade of real-world changes, and that information is no longer accurate. There can be good drow, and as folks have mentioned, there's plenty of examples in Golarion of them. Furthermore, as you'll see in the Bestiary, drow have lilac flesh tones now

That surprised me - because I always figured it was cannon (I never had an issue with 'good' drow despite that. But I'll respect what he's saying here and not use it as a source for 'Pathfinder'.

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i'm not sure where you got this from.

Because I can't find a contradicting source anywhere and I have no idea where you got the idea that Advance Race Guide was wrong from. I do see they changed it for the PF2 Bestiary (kind of - it implies that a true Dhamphir child is rare) so I don't doubt they changed it, or that the book was wrong, I'm just not sure where that information was published, and where you got the statement that Advance Race Guide was wrong.


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Rysky wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
The further we can get from the concept that dark=evil and light=good the better IMO.
Not in my opinion. Hideous and dark things being evil and bright beautiful things being good is a long standing staple of fantasy. Sure there should be exceptions (otherwise the storytelling aspects of roleplay would get really boring after a time), but to throw it all out seems to me like it wouldn't even be fantasy anymore.

Removing dark skin equaling evil doesn't rob the setting of any amount of fantasy. In the slightest.

Throw a rock, you'll hit something fantastical.

Respectfully, I disagree. Sure, my rock might hit on sword and sorcery fantasy, scifi fantasy, or any number of other subgenres, but classical fantasy will be dead.


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Alright, a few things...

  • I like the darker shades of purple for drow, just because it makes sense for blending in to the Darklands terrain, purple objects are INSANELY hard to see in darkness, even with infrared (which is basically what darkvision is) or with candle light.

  • How come no one has brought up the fact that drow eyes look extra levels of freaky, even compared to normal elf's eyes? Like, normal elves have no sclera, just pupil and iris, and their irises are typically blue/beige/violet. But drow have ONLY iris, no pupil, and their irises are reds and pinks, different shades of white and the like, how come THAT'S an alright differentiation between the two, but skin tone isn't

  • The whole transformation thing seems reminiscent of the Dark Eldar. While that doesn't change skin tone in that universe, it DOES change the internal physiology a bit, which also seems to happen with the drow, and if THAT happens, it makes sense why fleshwarping works well for them, and why they gain super freaky magic powers at the drop of a hat. I like that direction with the drow imo

  • Super minor thing... PLEASE, CthuhluSasquach, can you respond to things with bottom text instead of top text? It's really hard to figure out what you're saying when I have to scroll down to see who you're responding to and what remarks they made
SO! With all that, I really hope drow are their own ancestry and not a heritage, because then we can get some of these weirder niche thing s that people keep mentioning and it might all be canon! (fallen elf would be a fun one... hehehe)

(sorry if this seems a little scattershot, I'm bored out of my mind at work and my caffeine supplies seem to be running low)

Silver Crusade

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Ckorik wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Do you have a source for that quote?

James Jacobs on Second darkness

Quote:


1) The info about "ALL DROW ARE EVIL" in Second Darkness was from a pre-Pathfinder era where we were facing a culture of gamers who were VERY resistant to the idea of Paizo trying to pawn off a Driz'zt clone to cash in on that character's success, plus we wanted to make sure that what we were doing with drow wasn't trying to cash in on a lot of what Wizards of the Coast was doing with them at the time, so we focused back on the early incarnation of them in the game as demon-worshiping bad guy elves. Since then' we've gone through two edition changes and over a decade of real-world changes, and that information is no longer accurate. There can be good drow, and as folks have mentioned, there's plenty of examples in Golarion of them. Furthermore, as you'll see in the Bestiary, drow have lilac flesh tones now

That surprised me - because I always figured it was cannon (I never had an issue with 'good' drow despite that. But I'll respect what he's saying here and not use it as a source for 'Pathfinder'.

Quote:
i'm not sure where you got this from.
Because I can't find a contradicting source anywhere and I have no idea where you got the idea that Advance Race Guide was wrong from. I do see they changed it for the PF2 Bestiary (kind of - it implies that a true Dhamphir child is rare) so I don't doubt they changed it, or that the book was wrong, I'm just not sure where that information was published, and where you got the statement that Advance Race Guide was wrong.

JJ said the all drow were evil was not canon, absolutely nothing in his post is talking about the rest of Second Darkness not being canon

And the Advanced Race Guide was not written for Golarion, it was world neutral, I'm not sure how I can make that any clearer.

Silver Crusade

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Ravingdork wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
The further we can get from the concept that dark=evil and light=good the better IMO.
Not in my opinion. Hideous and dark things being evil and bright beautiful things being good is a long standing staple of fantasy. Sure there should be exceptions (otherwise the storytelling aspects of roleplay would get really boring after a time), but to throw it all out seems to me like it wouldn't even be fantasy anymore.

Removing dark skin equaling evil doesn't rob the setting of any amount of fantasy. In the slightest.

Throw a rock, you'll hit something fantastical.

Respectfully, I disagree. Sure, my rock might hit on sword and sorcery fantasy, scifi fantasy, or any number of other subgenres, but classical fantasy will be dead.

So your entire enjoyment and interest in fantasy will be dead if dark skin doesn't mean evil anymore?

There's absolutely no other fantastical elements there for you?

Silver Crusade

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nick1wasd wrote:
Super minor thing... PLEASE, CthuhluSasquach, can you respond to things with bottom text instead of top text? It's really hard to figure out what you're saying when I have to scroll down to see who you're responding to and what remarks they made

On the other hand it's super easy to reply to them with that format since their post doesn't get cut off by the quote mechanics.


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Ckorik wrote:

It can be understood through tough thorough thought, though.

i'll have you know my eyes bled

Rysky wrote:

“After twelve years instead of blue I want this race’s skin to turn black to show how evil they are like how it used to be” is a stance deserving of every bit of condescension it generates. Adding “politically correct” was just the cherry there.

wow, this is a strawman, i mean, at this point i'm just accustomed to you completely ignoring what a middle ground is, but wow.

i mean, lets not even go into the fact that this trope probably arose due to cultural overturned that light is good and darkness is bad, AND the drow started off as spider worshippers, with the black widow spider being the basis.

secondly, i think most people in support of darker drow want it because they think it looks cooler. which i agree with.

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Bandw2 wrote:
i mean, lets not even go into the fact that this trope probably arose due to cultural overturned that light is good and darkness is bad, AND the drow started off as spider worshippers, with the black widow spider being the basis.
That's not really relevant.
Quote:
secondly, i think most people in support of darker drow want it because they think it looks cooler. which i agree with.

"I think this dark skinned race is cool" is a lot different than "I want this race's skin to darken due to be evil".


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Rysky wrote:
FrostFox wrote:
Blue and Purple are dark tones. Text descriptions have allowed for Black tones as well.
They can be, they can also be light tones. And Paizo have never made black drow.
Quote:
Neither do the commoners that were living under the House of Thrune but they're still Evil cities.
A lot more of the of populace are okay with House Thrune, hence the alignment. It's for the average, the general populace, not just the people in charge.

"A dark elf's skin is either a cold blue-black, lusterless like a starless night or with a sheen akin to volcanic glass, or a deep purple, like the diluted violet of a dawn sky. Drow eyes are milky white with no pupils, adapted to an existence with little or no light. A dark elf's hair is typically white and fine." - Monster Codex

They're called 'Dark Elves' (they're not called this in the new Bestiary so there is that). Their skin is described to be in several shades, one of which is 'deep' purple which implies dark, and blue-black which has black in it.

1e Bestiary (3rd Printing) -
"This dark-skinned elf stands in a battle-ready pose, her hair silver
and eyes white and pupilless."
"Drow have dark skin, ranging from black to a hazy purple hue."

They have never -portrayed- black Drow in art, which is fine (if lame because they look cooler).

Silver Crusade

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And yet, Paizo has never arted a Black Drow.

Those hangovers are probably the same as "Kyonin elves are violently xenophobic" that always kept creeping in stuff wehn they came.


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Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
i mean, lets not even go into the fact that this trope probably arose due to cultural overturned that light is good and darkness is bad, AND the drow started off as spider worshippers, with the black widow spider being the basis.
That's not really relevant.
Quote:
secondly, i think most people in support of darker drow want it because they think it looks cooler. which i agree with.
"I think this dark skinned race is cool" is a lot different than "I want this race's skin to darken due to be evil".

they darkened due to the spider or whatever. I mean, this isn't a part of golarion lore, but they didn't darken because evil, they darkened because spiders are spooky and generally very dark.

why they're dark in golarion, is basically the same but they're just copy pasted and can't actually do anything related to spiders with drow.

REGARDLESS, the better way to handle "dark skin is evil should be less of a thing", they should have made more good drow and not just spray painted all their drow. to actually fix problems and not just create new ones requires work. write an AP where a group of Drow succeed in starting a slave rebellion and escaping to make a new town with protection status with some dwarves.

spray painting drow white only band-aides the issue and pisses everyone off who wanted dark elves anyway.

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Bandw2 wrote:
they darkened due to the spider or whatever. I mean, this isn't a part of golarion lore, but they didn't darken because evil, they darkened because spiders are spooky and generally very dark.
Which is irrelevent since back in DnD they were presented as all Evil so it's still a case of they were all evil and their skin turned black.
Quote:
why they're dark in golarion, is basically the same but they're just copy pasted and can't actually do anything related to spiders with drow.
No, evilness is explicitly required for the change.
Quote:

REGARDLESS, the better way to handle "dark skin is evil should be less of a thing", they should have made more good drow and not just spray painted all their drow. to actually fix problems and not just create new ones requires work.

They haven't made new problems.
Quote:
write an AP where a group of Drow succeed in starting a slave rebellion and escaping to make a new town with protection status with some dwarves.
Cool!
Quote:
spray painting drow white only band-aides the issue and pisses everyone off who wanted dark elves anyway.

They're not spray painted white, they're blue and purple.

People who want "dark elves" will have to deal. you're not getting a separate race of elves that are evil and black, you're not getting Dunmer (lawsuits). Elves have human skin tone ranges (so you can play a black elf) and Drow are blue and purple.


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The fact that elves turn to drow once they are evil enough has always reminede me – especially coming from the old standard that drow were black – of the old comic with the black smurfs. :)

Spoiler:
GASH!


Ravingdork wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
The further we can get from the concept that dark=evil and light=good the better IMO.
Not in my opinion. Hideous and dark things being evil and bright beautiful things being good is a long standing staple of fantasy. Sure there should be exceptions (otherwise the storytelling aspects of roleplay would get really boring after a time), but to throw it all out seems to me like it wouldn't even be fantasy anymore.

I guess the thing is that there's a disconnect between "dark places" (which may be scary) and "things that live in dark places" which often pallid with translucent skin and some of them glow.

That expectation of "light = good" and "dark = bad" is only really interesting to me if I'm going to subvert it.


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Rysky wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
they darkened due to the spider or whatever. I mean, this isn't a part of golarion lore, but they didn't darken because evil, they darkened because spiders are spooky and generally very dark.
Which is irrelevent since back in DnD they were presented as all Evil so it's still a case of they were all evil and their skin turned black.
Quote:
why they're dark in golarion, is basically the same but they're just copy pasted and can't actually do anything related to spiders with drow.
No, evilness is explicitly required for the change.
Quote:

REGARDLESS, the better way to handle "dark skin is evil should be less of a thing", they should have made more good drow and not just spray painted all their drow. to actually fix problems and not just create new ones requires work.

They haven't made new problems.
Quote:
write an AP where a group of Drow succeed in starting a slave rebellion and escaping to make a new town with protection status with some dwarves.
Cool!
Quote:
spray painting drow white only band-aides the issue and pisses everyone off who wanted dark elves anyway.

They're not spray painted white, they're blue and purple.

People who want "dark elves" will have to deal. you're not getting a separate race of elves that are evil and black, you're not getting Dunmer (lawsuits). Elves have human skin tone ranges (so you can play a black elf) and Drow are blue and purple.

Everything you say is so inaccurate. In forgotten realms Drow also had Eilistraee in their pantheon. There was a larger population of Good Drow than Golarion has ever had.

The changing skin tone seems to be a later addition to 1e than their proposed origin from Second Darkness.

Also the coloration setting the precedent is closer to white than blue (so it's alright if skin tone gets darker as long as it's only a little bit darker).


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
The further we can get from the concept that dark=evil and light=good the better IMO.
Not in my opinion. Hideous and dark things being evil and bright beautiful things being good is a long standing staple of fantasy. Sure there should be exceptions (otherwise the storytelling aspects of roleplay would get really boring after a time), but to throw it all out seems to me like it wouldn't even be fantasy anymore.

I guess the thing is that there's a disconnect between "dark places" (which may be scary) and "things that live in dark places" which often pallid with translucent skin and some of them glow.

That expectation of "light = good" and "dark = bad" is only really interesting to me if I'm going to subvert it.

How can you subvert it if it's not a thing?


FrostFox wrote:
How can you subvert it if it's not a thing?

People nonetheless have expectations, which are often wrong.

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FrostFox wrote:
Everything you say is so inaccurate. In forgotten realms Drow also had Eilistraee in their pantheon. There was a larger population of Good Drow than Golarion has ever had.
Those all came later.
Quote:
The changing skin tone seems to be a later addition to 1e than their proposed origin from Second Darkness.
No? Since we have an Elf turn into a Drow during the AP and the lead antagonist is a recent turn as well.
Quote:
Also the coloration setting the precedent is closer to white than blue (so it's alright if skin tone gets darker as long as it's only a little bit darker).

?

The Exchange

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This thread is damn silly, does it matter what skin color? If it makes so much difference either side you are on this, just give your own description. Hell say they have green sparkle glitter skin for all I care.
Its not like JJ will show up in your Game session and say: I DISAPPROVE.
Also if you are so insecure about skin color in a fantasy game and you see racism, you must take a deep breath and wonder if you are not projecting it.

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What's there to project? "they're evil so their skin turned black" is flat out racist.

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Their society organization is messed up, they just happened to be black?
Also you have good drows, means its not race thing and more historical and organization thing than race. Shunned from the outside summed with the hostile living in the Underdark made then prone to be more Aggressive.
You are ignoring all the lore just to push this silly simplification. When racism is not just skin color, there is much more into it, if it were that simple hell we would had fixed a ton of real life problems already.

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We're not ignoring the lore.

They were evil and so their skin changed color, and now they breed true. They didn't turn into Drow and then happen to become mostly evil after.

Having Good Drow doesn't dissipate the first part.

"When racism is not just skin color"

That doesn't make "black skin = evil" not be racist though.


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Takamorisan wrote:

This thread is damn silly, does it matter what skin color? If it makes so much difference either side you are on this, just give your own description. Hell say they have green sparkle glitter skin for all I care.

Its not like JJ will show up in your Game session and say: I DISAPPROVE.
Also if you are so insecure about skin color in a fantasy game and you see racism, you must take a deep breath and wonder if you are not projecting it.

A rather unhelpful post. So it doesn't matter then and they can be described as numerous tones? Elves change according to certain conditions. Unless that's removed, the conditions and what changes occur matter. Not to mention being non-canon has significance in Pathfinder Society play and generally feeling. "You can't be that way because it's not in the book" is a thing.

Perceived racism is the reason for removal, not the reason I prefer the darker aesthetic.


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Rysky wrote:
What's there to project? "they're evil so their skin turned black" is flat out racist.

There's been a lot of dogpile on your, but I'm 100% on board with (I think) everything you've said in this thread.

Dark=Evil should die in a fire.


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Midnightoker wrote:

I think this is more of a problem that the assumption as that an Ancestry is "evil".

Now I'm one of those GMs that plays every creature as a person. Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful, whatever. Goblin, Giant, Dragon, Demon, Angel, whatever. And in some contexts, they might reflect what is "traditional" or they might be drawn to something else. It depends on the creature/NPC, and it should.

Personally, I think creating a "baseline" color for any Ancestry on the premise of "it looks too much like X" is silly, especially when that color is, well, not a color real people actually are.

But then again I don't really have a problem one way or the other. Drow I run are going to vary in color, and they're not always going to be Evil.

I do think it's a bit weird to consider them in any way as a reflection of real life people, because for starters, they've always come off to me as closer to albino persons than a race of people.

Then again I hate alignment in general, the system doesn't really work at any table that plays with themes of morality.

It's hard to avoid racist connotations when the game assumes racist connotations out of the gate:

"Some monsters are always evil and some are always good."

Until that concept gets thrown in the trash, it will always require tweaking down the line. But given how many people are up in arms about Drows changing colors or Goblins being included in Core, that's probably a long way off.

Starting comment is going to be that of course in your game, you can play it however makes sense to you. This is given.

However, baseline is that drow in Golarion are evil. They're all evil. Irredeemably evil. Not even sorry about it.

Dragons (while not impossible to vary) are almost always aligned by color.

Eberron elves and dragons.. it can be whatever. And often is.

But, again, at your table, what you like is what's good.


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Rysky wrote:

We're not ignoring the lore.

They were evil and so their skin changed color, and now they breed true. They didn't turn into Drow and then happen to become mostly evil after.

Having Good Drow doesn't dissipate the first part.

"When racism is not just skin color"

That doesn't make "black skin = evil" not be racist though.

For original source, it's indeterminable whether the skin changed first or they were evil first as the original group were influenced by Rovagug and Darklands Radiation (if we're considering Second Darkness canon) as well as their Anger and feelings of betrayal.

Then they seem to be Evil after that.


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Saedar wrote:
Rysky wrote:
What's there to project? "they're evil so their skin turned black" is flat out racist.

There's been a lot of dogpile on your, but I'm 100% on board with (I think) everything you've said in this thread.

Dark=Evil should die in a fire.

Black = Evil isn't even the bulk of the argument in this thread. They're being argued with more because they're making false statements unsupported by previous lore and hyper-focusing on one issue with a no compromise attitude.

The Exchange

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FrostFox wrote:
Rysky wrote:

We're not ignoring the lore.

They were evil and so their skin changed color, and now they breed true. They didn't turn into Drow and then happen to become mostly evil after.

Having Good Drow doesn't dissipate the first part.

"When racism is not just skin color"

That doesn't make "black skin = evil" not be racist though.

For original source, it's indeterminable whether the skin changed first or they were evil first as the original group were influenced by Rovagug and Darklands Radiation (if we're considering Second Darkness canon) as well as their Anger and feelings of betrayal.

Then they seem to be Evil after that.

Thats my point, for all we know they could had turned black to adapt to Underdark so they can survive easily at hostile place. Darkness spell could had covered then.

Evil for the sake of Evil everyone can be, it would be damn racist if there was some bizarre limitation of White colored creatures can't be evil. Then I'd all train with pitchforks, but thats not the case.

By the end of the day I'd support removing the "evil","good" description and go with stuff Xenophobic, resentful, Territorial, Peaceful , Diplomatic, Negotiator. That would open a lot for new and old dms.

Grand Lodge

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I never understand these types of arguments. If you dislike drow having black skin and prefer shades of purple, its your campaign so do that. If you prefer drow (and other evils) having black (or dark) color schemes, its your campaign so do that. I honestly don't care what someone else thinks about the validity of a drow's skin color in my campaign, because...its my campaign. YMMV


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TwilightKnight wrote:
I never understand these types of arguments. If you dislike drow having black skin and prefer shades of purple, its your campaign so do that. If you prefer drow (and other evils) having black (or dark) color schemes, its your campaign so do that. I honestly don't care what someone else thinks about the validity of a drow's skin color in my campaign, because...its my campaign. YMMV

I can never understand your type of argument, because I like being in line with the source material. It's the argument of the Rules Lawyer vs the Freeform play. If you don't care, then allowing for variability in the source material is the best way to go.

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Barnabas Eckleworth III wrote:
However, baseline is that drow in Golarion are evil. They're all evil. Irredeemably evil. Not even sorry about it.

That is not the baseline, even Second Darkness had non-Evil Drow.

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Takamorisan wrote:
Thats my point, for all we know they could had turned black to adapt to Underdark so they can survive easily at hostile place.

That isn't true though, as Second Darkness makes this explicit, they were evil then became Drow.

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I can understand the sentiment, and being unable to just accept "you can do it differently " as an answer, because everything Paizo puts out for the race in question, official art, face cards, miniatures, and pawns, all will look that one specific way. Yes, I can get a miniature and paint it any way I like, but I also like using the paizo miniatures because they are usually beautifully done.

The other reason is, as has been said, conformity of experience.

Besides, half the people on here are screaming dark is not evil, but I don't see them having a problem with how demons and drow have darkness as a spell like ability, amongst other evil races. Should we replace it with Daylight?

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Rysky wrote:
Takamorisan wrote:
Thats my point, for all we know they could had turned black to adapt to Underdark so they can survive easily at hostile place.
That isn't true though, as Second Darkness makes this explicit, they were evil then became Drow.

Name them.

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Val'bryn2 wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Takamorisan wrote:
Thats my point, for all we know they could had turned black to adapt to Underdark so they can survive easily at hostile place.
That isn't true though, as Second Darkness makes this explicit, they were evil then became Drow.
Name them.

Hailin and Allevrah Azrinae.


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Rysky wrote:
Takamorisan wrote:
Thats my point, for all we know they could had turned black to adapt to Underdark so they can survive easily at hostile place.
That isn't true though, as Second Darkness makes this explicit, they were evil then became Drow.

Yet some elves did not abandon Golarion. According to some elves, these were political dissidents who saw the elven nations’ response to encroaching humanity as too kind and soft, while according to others, these elves were abandoned by the nations due to other reasons. Some even hold that these elves chose to remain behind simply out of loyalty to the world itself. Whatever the reasons, these elves fled Avistan for the remote places of the world: the polar ice caps, the deep jungles, and in the case of those who became trapped in the city of Celwynvian in the Mierani Forest—underground.

The Celwynvian elves knew for sometime of the network of caverns that existed under the nearby Calphiak Mountains—regular battles with the troglodytes that dwelt there taught them that much. Yet as the elves fled, desperate to escape the coming doom, they found that the caverns themselves were far deeper than they had imagined. And as they reached what they believed to be the deepest point, a nameless vault infested with horrific monsters far below the surface, a final tragedy struck, for this is when the Earthfall occurred. As this cosmic event unfolded on the surface above, great tremors shook the Darklands. And at the deepest points, these tremors touched upon the presence of a slumbering god Rovagug, the Rough Beast, god of wrath and destruction. As his presence brushed outward into the Darklands, infusing the vault within which the elves cowered, it mixed with strange radiations and the elves’ own bitterness and anger. They were transformed by this event, their hair bleaching white, their skin flushing dark, the cruelty and anger in their souls blossoming and crushing the traditional values of their kind. Thus, steeped in the evil of Rovagug and the dark radiations and sunken magic of the world’s deepest pits, were born the first of the drow.

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Yep.


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Val'bryn2 wrote:

I can understand the sentiment, and being unable to just accept "you can do it differently " as an answer, because everything Paizo puts out for the race in question, official art, face cards, miniatures, and pawns, all will look that one specific way. Yes, I can get a miniature and paint it any way I like, but I also like using the paizo miniatures because they are usually beautifully done.

The other reason is, as has been said, conformity of experience.

Besides, half the people on here are screaming dark is not evil, but I don't see them having a problem with how demons and drow have darkness as a spell like ability, amongst other evil races. Should we replace it with Daylight?

Daylight can be used for some evil tortures, it isn't a far stretch to imagine that agents of evil would utilize it for that purposes. The movie Midsommar uses the constant sunshine as part of the horror.

Thank you for the idea for some of my antagonists!

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