So I have been looking over the 2e Player's Handbook and in order to better understand how 2e works I decided to brainstorm how to make a Magus. This is not for any particular game I am just theory crafting the best way to make a character that would be similar to a Magus.
Elf Heritage: Cavern Elf for the Darkvision
1st: Elven Weapon Familiarity
5th: Elven Weapon Elegance
9th: Elf Step
13th: Elven Weapon Expertise
17th:
OR
Human Heritage: Half Orc
1st: Orc Weapon Familiarity
5th: Orc Weapon Carnage
9th: Orc Ferocity
13th: Orc Weapon Expertise
17th: Incredible Ferocity
By using the heritage feats to gain better weapon proficiency I avoid having to use Class Feats to pick up Fighter Dedication. While Elf at first seems like the obvious choice elves to gain proficiency with Long swords, you do take a penalty to Con though. Half-orcs though do NOT take that penalty and Orc Weapon Familiarity gives them access to the Orc Necksplitter. Or you can use the Orc Knuckle Dagger and punch people. [I cast FIST!]. Half-orc also gives you access to Ferocity which seems good. You could take advantage of Ancestor feats in a similar way with other Ancestries, but Dwarfs are slow and Goblins/Halflings/Gnomes are small. Are size bonuses/penalties still a thing in 2e?
Wizard choices
Arcane Thesis - Spell Blending [turning lower level slots into higher ones just seems GOOD]
School - Abjuration [for protective ward] or
Universalist [for extra Drain Bonded Item + Extra Wizard Class Feat +Extra Spells Known]
Wizard Class Feat 1: Hand of the Apprentice
+Eschew Material if Universalist
The Abjuration Ward seems like a nice ability, especially when combined with Shield and Mage armor. But the Universalist's ability to gain more uses of Drain Bonded Item, thus gain more spells per day seems REALLY good. Since Drain Bonded Item can be used on ANY spell slot [most of the time] this just seems OP!
Feats
Ancestry Feat 1-see above
Wizard 2nd Lv: Cantrip Expansion
Skill Feat 2nd:
General 3rd: Toughness
Wizard 4th: Bespell Weapon
Skill Feat 4th: Magical Crafting [after using your 3rd level skill increase to increase a crafting skill to Expert]
Ancestry 5th: see above
Wizard 6th: Steady Spell Casting
Skill Feat 6th:
General 7th: Fast Recovery
Wizard 8th: Bond Conversation OR Universal Versatility
Skill Feat 8th:
Ancestry 9th: See Above
Wizard 10th: Quickened Casting
Skill Feat 10th:
General 11th: Incredible Investiture
Wizard 12th: Bond Conversation OR Universal Versatility
Skill Feat 12th:
Ancestry 13th: see above
Wizard 14th: Bond Focus or Superior Bond
Skill Feat 14th:
General 15th:
Wizard 16th: Effortless Concentration
Skill Feat 16th:
Ancestry 17th:
Wizard 18th: Bond Focus or Superior Bond
Skill Feat 18th:
General 19th:
Wizard 20th: Spell Combination
Skill Feat 20th:
Bespell Weapon is obviously meant for Magus/Gish Builds. The Concentration bonuses are going to be needed since you will be in close combat often. The Bond Wizard Feats give you more ability to use Drain Bonded Item, thus more spells, which is always good. Quickened Casting helps with Action Economy, which is important because the idea is to be in melee combat. Toughness helps you NOT to die when you get hit.
There are plenty of good spells, but what I think would be good SPECIFICALLY for a Magus build are.
Shield is now a Cantrip but is still going to be a MUST. Even though it only gives a +1 it can be cast every round, so might as well if you don't want to cast a different spell.
Mage Armor was weakened to only give a +1, but lasts ALL DAY
Shocking Grasp: takes 2 actions, meaning you can use your third action for a melee attack to take advantage of Bespell Weapon.
Vampiric Touch: similar to Shocking Grasp but you gain temp HP.
Mirror Image: only lasts 1 minuet but still seems like a good defensive option.
Blur: gives you concealment, which grants a flat DC 5 check or the attacker misses you. Which on a d20 turns into a 25% miss chance. Compared to 1e flat 20% chance this is an improvement :D
Haste: Gain an extra Action for Strike or Stride! Yes Please!
Fly: now a 4th level spell, but Flying is still always a good option.
False Life: extra HP is good
Fiery Body: Gain Fire Immunity and a Fly Speed. Plus anyone who attacks you with an unarmed attack or a NON-Reach Weapon takes fire damage. Considering that you are planning to be in melee this is a good option.
I am sure there are a lot of things I have missed, or better options that I just have not thought of yet, but I think this a good foundation to brainstorm how to make a Magus/Gish with what is currently available.
I am curious if what other and/or better builds are currently out their?
So I value medium to heavy armor a lot on my magus-esque builds so my two preferred ways to implement it in PF2 are:
I prefer the Fighter/MC Caster for an offensive martial/caster. You get your armor and weapon proficiencies, and a reasonable set of spells, yes you are locking in to using almost all your feats for spell progression. Your AC and melee to hit will be extremely strong. I tend to pick mobilty and battlefield control spells. Jumping to the backlines of the enemy, putting up a wall or cloud to keep separate their support from their frontliners. Your spell DC's wont be the best so always look for things that you're willing to assume they'll succeed on saving throws. Bespell weapon is reasonable for you, you'll hit.
Caster/MC Champion w/ racial weapons is another very strong approach for a more defensive caster. Between the racial weapons and the MC Champion your AC and to-hit will lag by about 3 from the martial baseline (5 from Legendaries) -- one from lower melee attribute, and 2-4 from proficiency. So you'll want to get flanking/other similar benefits to try to stay equal to a baseline martial. Your DCs will be high, so blast away. I'd avoid bespell weapon here, you're to-hits are lower and feeling like your doubling down on a second strike (that may have MAP if you spell had the attack trait) feels a little wasted. Bespell weapon is reasonable when comboing with self/party buff spells that aren't generating MAP.
As far as I understand, the extra uses of Drain Bonded Item universalists get are spell-level specific, and you can only use them on slots from that spell level, basically simulating the Specialist extra slots per day. I think the only way universalist actually pulls ahead in spell slots is using the Bond Conservation, so it doesn't kick in until level 8 and is kinda finnicky.
Still, having an OPEN Spell Slot for each spell level is still pretty good.
So I value medium to heavy armor a lot on my magus-esque builds so my two preferred ways to implement it in PF2 are:
I prefer the Fighter/MC Caster for an offensive martial/caster. You get your armor and weapon proficiencies, and a reasonable set of spells, yes you are locking in to using almost all your feats for spell progression. Your AC and melee to hit will be extremely strong. I tend to pick mobilty and battlefield control spells. Jumping to the backlines of the enemy, putting up a wall or cloud to keep separate their support from their frontliners. Your spell DC's wont be the best so always look for things that you're willing to assume they'll succeed on saving throws. Bespell weapon is reasonable for you, you'll hit.
Caster/MC Champion w/ racial weapons is another very strong approach for a more defensive caster. Between the racial weapons and the MC Champion your AC and to-hit will lag by about 3 from the martial baseline (5 from Legendaries) -- one from lower melee attribute, and 2-4 from proficiency. So you'll want to get flanking/other similar benefits to try to stay equal to a baseline martial. Your DCs will be high, so blast away. I'd avoid bespell weapon here, you're to-hits are lower and feeling like your doubling down on a second strike (that may have MAP if you spell had the attack trait) feels a little wasted. Bespell weapon is reasonable when comboing with self/party buff spells that aren't generating MAP.
The Champion Dedication and the Defense Armor Expert, giving you Expert Training in Armor looks like a really good option!
Just keep in mind that your first attack will rank about as well as a martial PC's second attack. That's a healthy expectation to start with, and includes buffs, etc. Also note that a warrior's second attack is legitimate, so take your shots when you can.
Yet this means your primary attack should be a spell, hopefully one without the Attack trait so it doesn't mess up your Multiple Attack Penalty (MAP).
Spell & Strike is a good default combo. Getting off a Bespell Weapon in one round isn't a given, though if you look at the phrasing, one interpretation is you could end the previous turn by spellcasting, then begin the new one charged up.
You'll be squishy, very squishy.
AC, h.p., saves, are all lower than a martial's and most buffs don't last long enough to bridge the gap.
In many ways I think this makes the martial/caster gish much stronger than the caster/martial. Everyone expects the gish to fight w/ blasts in reserve. If you start with a 6 h.p./level caster in PF2, you're a blaster who can fill the occasional extra action w/ a Strike, but you really don't have that martial skill "in reserve" (except I guess against Golems and creatures immune to magic).
Consider a bow.
Also consider maneuvers. Since they're mainly based off Athletics rather than your class, you can contend with martials there with only the stat difference between you. (So +0 to +1)
Trip is a solid choice, and w/ Assurance (Athletics) you can trip most lumbering creatures (i.e. Giants, Golems, Zombies) even at equal level.
And without taking the MAP penalty if you've attacked.
Also, the Polymorph spells are nice, although I realize that's outside normal gish territory. But they get your stats up to martial level w/ no other investment other than Con & Toughness. The spells give essentially one minute in martial mode.
Hope that helps,
Cheers
The Drain Bonded item is slightly worse than that - you can only use it to cast a spell that you already cast that day, so it is not an open spell slot exactly. It is more like "and +1 use of any spell of that level you prepared". So when it comes to spell slots, universalists lag behind Specialists by 1 slot without using Bond Conservation.
Still, for purposes of a Gish, it is probably pretty good due to Bond Conservation. While other casters might find it awkward to find a good spell to reclaim this way, a Gish (or laser ray wizard, but i dont think there are enough interesting laser spells spread over the levels to be worth building around that yet) generally will always have a valid target for it:
True Strike.Two spells I think you want to spam in order to benefit from Bespell Weapon the most are True Strike (bespell makes it into 1 action, roll twice on next attack, make all attacks add 1d6 damage - pretty sweet deal) and Jump.
During any turn in which you want to move up to 30ft and spend rest of the turn attacking, you can instead cast Jump and move the appropriate distance and get Bespell Weapon for your trouble.
Of course, the question is, is it really worth it to get behind in weapon proficiency in order to get 1d6 bonus damage to attacks and some neat combat tricks like True Strike and defensive spells like Blink or Mirror Image. BTW, the miss chance is 20%, not 25% - they miss on 1, 2, 3 and 4, which is 1/5 of the possible dice results.
One of the Tactics for a Gish Build IS to spam close range high damage spells. So using Drain Bonded Item to get more uses of True Strike, Shocking Grasp, or Vampiric Touch sounds like a Win to me!
Sure Gish builds might not be the best, but they rarely have been! Making a spellsword/eldritch knight/duskblade/magus/Gish/etc is as much about the wow factor as about its effectiveness. But because you are not specializing they almost always lag behind a full martial or a focused spell caster. So YES, it IS worth lagging behind in weapon proficiency in order to pull of some "neat combat tricks" :D
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Note that if you pick up Hand of the Apprentice you have a 1-action ranged attack that can power up Bespell Weapon every fight.
Also note that Bond Conservation nails you to the floor. You have to cast each round, then conserve, then your next action has to be casting again. So to get any benefit you need 2 rounds of relative immobility. It doesn't really mesh well with any martial prowess. Still not terrible, but not super synergistic with a gish.
The Champion Dedication and the Defense Armor Expert, giving you Expert Training in Armor looks like a really good option!So I value medium to heavy armor a lot on my magus-esque builds so my two preferred ways to implement it in PF2 are:
I prefer the Fighter/MC Caster for an offensive martial/caster. You get your armor and weapon proficiencies, and a reasonable set of spells, yes you are locking in to using almost all your feats for spell progression. Your AC and melee to hit will be extremely strong. I tend to pick mobilty and battlefield control spells. Jumping to the backlines of the enemy, putting up a wall or cloud to keep separate their support from their frontliners. Your spell DC's wont be the best so always look for things that you're willing to assume they'll succeed on saving throws. Bespell weapon is reasonable for you, you'll hit.
Caster/MC Champion w/ racial weapons is another very strong approach for a more defensive caster. Between the racial weapons and the MC Champion your AC and to-hit will lag by about 3 from the martial baseline (5 from Legendaries) -- one from lower melee attribute, and 2-4 from proficiency. So you'll want to get flanking/other similar benefits to try to stay equal to a baseline martial. Your DCs will be high, so blast away. I'd avoid bespell weapon here, you're to-hits are lower and feeling like your doubling down on a second strike (that may have MAP if you spell had the attack trait) feels a little wasted. Bespell weapon is reasonable when comboing with self/party buff spells that aren't generating MAP.
It is. And getting Lay on Hands 1 per 10 minute rest is a nice backup for when you inevitably get mauled.
You'd likely have to start Sorcerer though because your stats will already be stretched. Heavy Armor also means you don't have to boost Dex. So Str, Con, & Cha can be as high as needed.There's an argument that could be made for 14 Cha, and only because that get you the Champion MCD. The build is generally based on avoiding spells w/ saves. The stats then could help the warrior half.
Sorcerer also opens up Primal spells, which have nice mix of blasting (because you're a gish) and healing (because you have low h.p.).
Yes, primal sorcerer w/ mc champ is 1 of the two builds I've been looking at. Probably elemental. But arcane draconic is also a solid choice. True strike from bloodline, and the status boost to AC for using bloodline.
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Selecting a Draconic Bloodline to get the Blood Magic +1 status bonus to AC for 1 round seem pretty good. Combined with Shield for a +1 Circumstance bonus to AC, and if you dip into Champion for the Armor proficiency, I think you would be sitting pretty comfortably.
Daddy Likes :D
Bloodline magic doesn't triggers on cantrips, so it doesn't synergize with Shield. But it still means you can likely have either the the bloodline boost or the shield boos any given round. (You could stack them if you used a bloodline spell/power and casted shield. But doesn't combo with truestrike unless you're hasted since you need a fourth action to strike)
I'm enjoying Wizard/Fighter gish, with Titanwrestler and focus on STR, he can dimension door then grab enemy casters up to Huge Size.
Combined with Weapon Storm and Hand of the Apprentice, it's actually really interesting. Getting critical rolls on Weapon Storm and knocking everyone infront of you prone due to hammer crit effect is a good aesthetic.
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Shield only goes on cooldown if you use it to block and it gets destroyed. If you never block and only use it to raise your AC, you can spam it.
Depends how often you're getting attacked. If you're rarely attacked, then yes, pop the shield on the first solid hit (because you probably shouldn't be using shield in the first place if you're not being targeted often and lets get that option out of being your default by putting it on cooldown). If you're attacked often and need the AC boost, first examine if you should have an actual shield instead... the +2 versus +1 is a big deal for the same action cost.
Shields best use is when mobbed when fighting lower level creatures, Shield's +1 is worth keeping up across all the attacks. They already don't have a great hit rate, so you're likely to see attacks cancelled.
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Depends how often you're getting attacked. If you're rarely attacked, then yes, pop the shield on the first solid hit (because you probably shouldn't be using shield in the first place if you're not being targeted often and lets get that option out of being your default by putting it on cooldown). If you're attacked often and need the AC boost, first examine if you should have an actual shield instead... the +2 versus +1 is a big deal for the same action cost.
Shields best use is when mobbed when fighting lower level creatures, Shield's +1 is worth keeping up across all the attacks. They already don't have a great hit rate, so you're likely to see attacks cancelled.
Yes, I've seen many attacks miss due to that +1, or crits turned into normal hits. My players tried to time blocking for h.p. toward the end of battles or when dire because all those misses were saving h.p. too. And I mean backrow PCs as well, who cast it because they had the spare action. Battle lines shift more in PF2, and Paizo quite reliably gives enemies ranged attacks. With 30' being a common range for spells, Shield matters.
An actual +2 shield requires a free hand (and has Bulk). That's why most of my THW/TWF build specs have access to Shield (generally through an MCD or Ancestry).
A caster/martial gish should carry a +2 shield, as they need as much AC as possible given their h.p. deficit. The trouble is, they have fewer actions to spare than most builds and having a smaller weapon sorta ruins True Strike & Weapon Storm.
Ah, gishes...
Didn't notice it mentioned by anyone else, but the developers confirmed that the WIzard's listed 1st-level class feat was a mistake, and that they shouldn't get it. Only the Universalist gets an extra class feat.
Could you provide a reference or source for this?
Post #2 in this thread:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42ppi?Pathfinder-Friday-answers
The summarization of the Friday stream from two weeks back, the list of official errata.
for melee wizards there is little hope...to few HP and no combat profs whatsoever...
only thing that could help is champion dedication for that fullplate and dex dump, but its hard to have str16+cha14 while having int18...
sorcerer + champion dedication = AC22 at level 2 w raised shield...as good as it gets...
str16
dex10
con12
int10
wis12
cha18
feats
1dangerous sorcery(human), 2champion dedication, 4lay on hands, 6champions reaction, 8adv bloodline or champion resiliency or divine ally(shield), 9(monk dedication, multitalented halfelf), 10flurry of blows or quick casting...
for general feats shield block, toughness and fleet
use melee spells and raise shield or trip/grapple with your gauntlet....tank and protect(with help of mirror image and the like)...or buff...or burn...or control...you can even go primal sorcerer to have also heal spells...countless options
it's easy after you take care of your biggest problem when opting for melee full caster....sustainable defense
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Just to be precise, a flat dc 5 check fails on 1-4, so it's only a 20% chance to miss