paizo.com Recent Posts in So, Monks are a bit of a mess.paizo.com Recent Posts in So, Monks are a bit of a mess.2019-09-24T18:12:12Z2019-09-24T18:12:12ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.John Lynch 106https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#842019-09-24T04:22:11Z2019-09-24T04:22:11Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Squiggit wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Weapon monks would feel better if Fighter dedication wasn't so bad for martials. </p>
<p>I feel like Paizo sort of intended multiclassing to be a way to help prop up alternative weapon choices, especially in core, but in practice it doesn't feel super great to try to buy into. </blockquote><p>This is probably my biggest issue. I don't know if it's done on purpose (clerics seem to get just as much from multiclassing into a wizard as a fighter does), but it definitely feels underwhelming trying to have a martial class multiclass into another martial class.
<p>I would absolutely love alternative dedication feats to the core classes.</p>Squiggit wrote:Weapon monks would feel better if Fighter dedication wasn't so bad for martials.
I feel like Paizo sort of intended multiclassing to be a way to help prop up alternative weapon choices, especially in core, but in practice it doesn't feel super great to try to buy into.
This is probably my biggest issue. I don't know if it's done on purpose (clerics seem to get just as much from multiclassing into a wizard as a fighter does), but it definitely feels underwhelming trying to...John Lynch 1062019-09-24T04:22:11ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Vidmaster7https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#832019-09-24T09:56:31Z2019-09-24T04:04:14Z<p>I actually quite like the champion feats that give you igther a shield sword or mount.</p>I actually quite like the champion feats that give you igther a shield sword or mount.Vidmaster72019-09-24T04:04:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Squiggithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#822019-09-24T03:31:51Z2019-09-24T03:28:09Z<p>Weapon monks would feel better if Fighter dedication wasn't so bad for martials. </p>
<p>I feel like Paizo sort of intended multiclassing to be a way to help prop up alternative weapon choices, especially in core, but in practice it doesn't feel super great to try to buy into.</p>Weapon monks would feel better if Fighter dedication wasn't so bad for martials.
I feel like Paizo sort of intended multiclassing to be a way to help prop up alternative weapon choices, especially in core, but in practice it doesn't feel super great to try to buy into.Squiggit2019-09-24T03:28:09ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.LuniasMhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#812020-09-04T18:10:30Z2019-09-24T01:39:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">HeHateMe wrote:</div><blockquote>You want bad feats? Check out Alchemist, <b>Bard</b> and Champion. Pure bloody awful.</blockquote><p>I was going to offer up my 2cp for the conversation, but this right here? This broke me.HeHateMe wrote:You want bad feats? Check out Alchemist, Bard and Champion. Pure bloody awful.
I was going to offer up my 2cp for the conversation, but this right here? This broke me.LuniasM2019-09-24T01:39:08ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.John Lynch 106https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#802019-09-22T02:39:37Z2019-09-22T02:39:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I think weapon monks need an upgrade at level 6, at the same time all the level 1 styles get their second feat.</p>
<p>Since if you are a weapon using monk who isn't buying ki powers or non-weapon stances, the only real options at 6 are water step (which might not be relevant) and whirling throw (which doesn't combine all that well with weapons.)</p>
<p>Like I'm happy on a bo staff monk taking: Monastic Weaponry, brawling focus, and stand still for my first three class feats and then there's that first gap that makes me reconsider the character. </blockquote><p>This is unfortunately a consequence of the game being new. It will get better (took until Ultimate Magic for ANY monk to be worthwhile in PF1 so this is an improvement).PossibleCabbage wrote:I think weapon monks need an upgrade at level 6, at the same time all the level 1 styles get their second feat.
Since if you are a weapon using monk who isn't buying ki powers or non-weapon stances, the only real options at 6 are water step (which might not be relevant) and whirling throw (which doesn't combine all that well with weapons.)
Like I'm happy on a bo staff monk taking: Monastic Weaponry, brawling focus, and stand still for my first three class feats and...John Lynch 1062019-09-22T02:39:37ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.HeHateMehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#792019-09-24T11:42:55Z2019-09-21T21:14:16Z<p>I couldn't disagree more, 2e has the best version of the monk class that I've ever seen in any edition of D&D. In addition, Monk has one of the best feat lists in the game. You want bad feats? Check out Alchemist, Bard and Champion. Pure bloody awful.</p>
<p>The one big change I would make is to allow Monk weapons to be used with stances. That's pretty much the only thing I'd change.</p>I couldn't disagree more, 2e has the best version of the monk class that I've ever seen in any edition of D&D. In addition, Monk has one of the best feat lists in the game. You want bad feats? Check out Alchemist, Bard and Champion. Pure bloody awful.
The one big change I would make is to allow Monk weapons to be used with stances. That's pretty much the only thing I'd change.HeHateMe2019-09-21T21:14:16ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.PossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#782019-09-21T19:55:46Z2019-09-21T19:55:46Z<p>I think weapon monks need an upgrade at level 6, at the same time all the level 1 styles get their second feat.</p>
<p>Since if you are a weapon using monk who isn't buying ki powers or non-weapon stances, the only real options at 6 are water step (which might not be relevant) and whirling throw (which doesn't combine all that well with weapons.)</p>
<p>Like I'm happy on a bo staff monk taking: Monastic Weaponry, brawling focus, and stand still for my first three class feats and then there's that first gap that makes me reconsider the character.</p>I think weapon monks need an upgrade at level 6, at the same time all the level 1 styles get their second feat.
Since if you are a weapon using monk who isn't buying ki powers or non-weapon stances, the only real options at 6 are water step (which might not be relevant) and whirling throw (which doesn't combine all that well with weapons.)
Like I'm happy on a bo staff monk taking: Monastic Weaponry, brawling focus, and stand still for my first three class feats and then there's that first...PossibleCabbage2019-09-21T19:55:46ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.The-Magic-Swordhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#772019-09-21T18:47:59Z2019-09-21T18:47:59Z<p>So jumping back a little in the conversation, the consensus seems to be that monastic weaponry is usable but lackluster (it seems like its best when using flurry of blows, rather than a stance?) fair enough.</p>
<p>One thing I haven't seen suggested is that this could very easily be remedied by dropping a few weapon-monk specific stances (say starting at level 4) to support a full-weapons build, the prerequisite to using the stance could list that the monk must be holding a melee weapon, or a ranged weapon, and then it would confer some other benefits. </p>
<p>My first instinct when I read the book, was just that monastic weaponry was more or less an "unfinished" feat chain.</p>So jumping back a little in the conversation, the consensus seems to be that monastic weaponry is usable but lackluster (it seems like its best when using flurry of blows, rather than a stance?) fair enough.
One thing I haven't seen suggested is that this could very easily be remedied by dropping a few weapon-monk specific stances (say starting at level 4) to support a full-weapons build, the prerequisite to using the stance could list that the monk must be holding a melee weapon, or a...The-Magic-Sword2019-09-21T18:47:59ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Ssalarn (alias of Michael Sayre, Design Manager)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#762020-09-04T18:09:39Z2019-09-17T19:50:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">rainzax wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Strongwise Monk, aka "ST/WIS>DX/CON", has high accuracy, damage, Athletics, initiative, Will, class DC, WIS skills, and AC, but middling or low Reflex, DX skills, Fortitude, and hit points.
</p>
In other words, Strongwise has essentially traded out Reflex, DX skills, Fortitude, and hit points, for things like more INT skills, Languages, CHA skills, and INT/CHA multiclass potential. He/she has weakened his/her Combat Potential in exchange for some Utility Potential.</p>
<p>And so, I might even be so bold as to take your argument - that "WIS to AC" narrows the field - and throw it back in your face by claiming the exact opposite - that "WIS to AC" widens the field by allowing builds that can trade out DX/CON combat for some INT/CHA utility! </blockquote><p>I would say the main thrust of this assertion is fundamentally wrong based on a key point: You assume the monk traded away a bunch of options when that's not at all the case.
<p>The monk has numerous ki powers and Wis-based abilities that do things like enhance his ability to move (ki rush), heal himself (wholeness of body), fend off multiple attackers (ki blast), or fly (wind jump), rendering Acrobatics irrelevant. Similarly, because it's a monk, you didn't lose anything on defenses; by prioritizing WIS you simply identified the other two saves as the targets for your Path of Perfection class feature. Because WIS and STR are now the foundation for everything you might want to do and provide all the equivalent facility of other stat priorities, the field has narrowed. Anything that's notably less effective than that default gains the reputation of being a trap option, eventually enough people get upset about imbalances that reinforcing materials are made, which pushes the CRB further out of relevance and distorts the experience for others, so on and so forth.</p>
<p>The monk is in the unique position of being one of the most versatile chassis' in the CRB already; it can play tank, controller, DPR, or an option of the two, and all of the various paths are pretty solidly balanced against each other in use and versatility.</p>
<p>The rogue is a pretty great example of where a change like this might actually be called for; they only get Dex to damage on one build, and it's a build that forces them into systemically-enforced smaller damage dice coupled with real limitations throughout the early levels that if they dump STR too hard, they won't be able to perform the basic functions of their role because they need to be able to carry melee and ranged weapon options, thieve's tools, rope, grappling hooks, and other accoutrement that will quickly force them to start making hard priority calls. The rogue has multiple systemic reinforcements that both prevent STR from being a complete dump stat without making significant sacrifices that will follow through at least the first quarter of a character's life span.</p>
<p>So the result when you look at something like WIS to AC and ask the appropriate questions is, at least in my view-</p>
<p>1) Is it needed? Not at all. Monk includes many of the highest AC builds already available in the game, including on builds that already benefit from high WIS.</p>
<p>2) Does it improve the game? Strong argument for no. I can already have a STR/WIS, DEX/WIS, or CON/WIS build with great AC (regardless of which is primary and which is secondary) so all the change really does is distort the currently balanced framework by shifting priorities further away from DEX and marginalizing it as Monk priority; AC and Acrobatics checks are already the primary functions it serves, and the monk can bypass the need for Acrobatics checks with WIS-based abilities already, so completely shutting off DEX creates a dynamic that overly favors non-Dex builds.</p>
<p>3) Does it adhere to the paradigms of the system it's being presented in? Again, no. Pathfinder 2nd doesn't solve SAD/MAD by allowing everyone to mono-stat, it does it by giving anyone more stats. This means that every stat you effectively dump stat is a meaningful increase in overall character strength since the ability to zero in on one or two stats allows you to raise a smaller number of stats higher and more efficiently while negatively impacting your versatility It pushes away from well-balanced adventurers and towards the kind of math-manipulating options that ultimately undermined PF1 and created significant barriers to entry for new players by allowing builds that shattered the game's performance expectations.</p>rainzax wrote:Strongwise Monk, aka "ST/WIS>DX/CON", has high accuracy, damage, Athletics, initiative, Will, class DC, WIS skills, and AC, but middling or low Reflex, DX skills, Fortitude, and hit points.
In other words, Strongwise has essentially traded out Reflex, DX skills, Fortitude, and hit points, for things like more INT skills, Languages, CHA skills, and INT/CHA multiclass potential. He/she has weakened his/her Combat Potential in exchange for some Utility Potential.And so, I might...Ssalarn (alias of Michael Sayre, Design Manager)2019-09-17T19:50:34ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.rainzaxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#752019-09-24T18:12:12Z2019-09-15T02:49:49Z<p>Here are my ideas for a <a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42ro7?Monk#1" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Monk</a> Fix.</p>Here are my ideas for a Monk Fix.rainzax2019-09-15T02:49:49ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Xenocrathttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#742019-09-03T19:05:16Z2019-09-03T19:05:16Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Unicore wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Class Archetypes can change class features, cost a level 2 feat (so presumably add something approximately as valuable), can be taken at level 1.</p>
<p>So you can make a class archetype to change the key ability of the monk from "Strength or Dexterity" to "Wisdom" which also does other things. </blockquote>how do you know this? are there any class archetypes yet? </blockquote><p>Page 219, CRB.Unicore wrote:PossibleCabbage wrote:Class Archetypes can change class features, cost a level 2 feat (so presumably add something approximately as valuable), can be taken at level 1.
So you can make a class archetype to change the key ability of the monk from "Strength or Dexterity" to "Wisdom" which also does other things.
how do you know this? are there any class archetypes yet? Page 219, CRB.Xenocrat2019-09-03T19:05:16ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Gisherhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#732019-09-03T19:02:12Z2019-09-03T19:02:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Unicore wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Class Archetypes can change class features, cost a level 2 feat (so presumably add something approximately as valuable), can be taken at level 1.</p>
<p>So you can make a class archetype to change the key ability of the monk from "Strength or Dexterity" to "Wisdom" which also does other things. </blockquote>how do you know this? are there any class archetypes yet? </blockquote><p>There aren't any yet, but the CRB describes them.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">CRB, p. 219 wrote:</div><blockquote>Class archetypes always alter or replace some of a class’s static class features, in addition to any new feats they offer. It may be possible to take a class archetype at 1st level if it alters or replaces some of the class’s initial class features. In that case, you must take that archetype’s dedication feat at 2nd level, and after that you proceed normally.</blockquote><p>Unicore wrote:PossibleCabbage wrote:Class Archetypes can change class features, cost a level 2 feat (so presumably add something approximately as valuable), can be taken at level 1.
So you can make a class archetype to change the key ability of the monk from "Strength or Dexterity" to "Wisdom" which also does other things.
how do you know this? are there any class archetypes yet? There aren't any yet, but the CRB describes them. CRB, p. 219 wrote:Class archetypes always alter or replace...Gisher2019-09-03T19:02:12ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Unicorehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#722019-09-03T18:47:47Z2019-09-03T18:47:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Class Archetypes can change class features, cost a level 2 feat (so presumably add something approximately as valuable), can be taken at level 1.</p>
<p>So you can make a class archetype to change the key ability of the monk from "Strength or Dexterity" to "Wisdom" which also does other things. </blockquote><p>how do you know this? are there any class archetypes yet?PossibleCabbage wrote:Class Archetypes can change class features, cost a level 2 feat (so presumably add something approximately as valuable), can be taken at level 1.
So you can make a class archetype to change the key ability of the monk from "Strength or Dexterity" to "Wisdom" which also does other things.
how do you know this? are there any class archetypes yet?Unicore2019-09-03T18:47:47ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.PossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#712019-09-03T18:45:21Z2019-09-03T18:45:21Z<p>Class Archetypes can change class features, cost a level 2 feat (so presumably add something approximately as valuable), can be taken at level 1.</p>
<p>So you can make a class archetype to change the key ability of the monk from "Strength or Dexterity" to "Wisdom" which also does other things.</p>Class Archetypes can change class features, cost a level 2 feat (so presumably add something approximately as valuable), can be taken at level 1.
So you can make a class archetype to change the key ability of the monk from "Strength or Dexterity" to "Wisdom" which also does other things.PossibleCabbage2019-09-03T18:45:21ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Unicorehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#702019-09-03T18:29:28Z2019-09-03T18:29:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote> I think there should be some option (like a class archetype) to base your class DC on Wisdom. </blockquote><p>I am curious about how classes without set groups (like rackets or orders) will handle future new content. Like it is easy to see a new type of rogue based of INT, and giving a bonus to INT and delivering poisons being released as a racket. But for fighters and monks where you just choose a key attribute, I am not sure how it will be handled. I guess maybe through class-based archetype? But we definitely haven't seen what that will look like yet, and how will class archetypes apply to rogues, or druids or champions who have all these different class groupings?PossibleCabbage wrote:I think there should be some option (like a class archetype) to base your class DC on Wisdom.
I am curious about how classes without set groups (like rackets or orders) will handle future new content. Like it is easy to see a new type of rogue based of INT, and giving a bonus to INT and delivering poisons being released as a racket. But for fighters and monks where you just choose a key attribute, I am not sure how it will be handled. I guess maybe through class-based...Unicore2019-09-03T18:29:28ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.PossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#692019-09-03T17:28:37Z2019-09-03T17:28:37Z<p>I think there should be some option (like a class archetype) to base your class DC on Wisdom.</p>I think there should be some option (like a class archetype) to base your class DC on Wisdom.PossibleCabbage2019-09-03T17:28:37ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.doktorJunghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#682019-09-03T16:01:29Z2019-09-03T16:01:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">prototype00 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Stunning Fists uses Class DC which uses Strength/Dex. </p>
<p>The only thing that uses Spell DC for monks is Quivering Palm and Ki Blast, IIRC.</p>
<p>prototype00 </blockquote><p>Thanks, that's how I understood it. So all of the maxed-out dex and strength monks shouldn't feel like they can't also stun people now and then!prototype00 wrote:Stunning Fists uses Class DC which uses Strength/Dex.
The only thing that uses Spell DC for monks is Quivering Palm and Ki Blast, IIRC.
prototype00
Thanks, that's how I understood it. So all of the maxed-out dex and strength monks shouldn't feel like they can't also stun people now and then!doktorJung2019-09-03T16:01:29ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.prototype00https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#672019-09-03T15:57:18Z2019-09-03T15:57:18Z<p>Stunning Fists uses Class DC which uses Strength/Dex. </p>
<p>The only thing that uses Spell DC for monks is Quivering Palm and Ki Blast, IIRC.</p>
<p>prototype00</p>Stunning Fists uses Class DC which uses Strength/Dex.
The only thing that uses Spell DC for monks is Quivering Palm and Ki Blast, IIRC.
prototype00prototype002019-09-03T15:57:18ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.doktorJunghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#662019-09-03T15:52:57Z2019-09-03T15:52:57Z<p>One thing I noticed above that didn't seem to be touched on - isn't a monk's class DC based on whichever of strength or dexterity that they chose, and therefore Stunning Fist DCs would also be based on that? I understand that a monk's spell DC is Wisdom-based, but I believed Stunning Fist used class DC. Thanks!</p>One thing I noticed above that didn't seem to be touched on - isn't a monk's class DC based on whichever of strength or dexterity that they chose, and therefore Stunning Fist DCs would also be based on that? I understand that a monk's spell DC is Wisdom-based, but I believed Stunning Fist used class DC. Thanks!doktorJung2019-09-03T15:52:57ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Gisherhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#652019-09-02T23:44:36Z2019-09-02T23:37:02Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">pjrogers wrote:</div><blockquote>1) Even if it's theoretically suboptimal, I won't ever be using a shield with a monk doing unarmed attacks. I don't have any interest in pretending to be Capt America, and overall I just think it would like silly (obviously a purely subjective aesthetic judgement).</blockquote><p>I get that. Using the parry feature of a bo staff or getting the shield cantrip would get you some similar protection when you really need it but would have a less "Cappy" style.pjrogers wrote:1) Even if it's theoretically suboptimal, I won't ever be using a shield with a monk doing unarmed attacks. I don't have any interest in pretending to be Capt America, and overall I just think it would like silly (obviously a purely subjective aesthetic judgement).
I get that. Using the parry feature of a bo staff or getting the shield cantrip would get you some similar protection when you really need it but would have a less "Cappy" style.Gisher2019-09-02T23:37:02ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Secret Wizardhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#642019-09-02T16:43:39Z2019-09-02T16:43:39Z<p>Is casters investing on a dedication (that already requires 14 STR/DEX) and then paying a class feat for less AC than they would get by getting heavy armor (through general feats or high upfront value dedications) that broken?</p>Is casters investing on a dedication (that already requires 14 STR/DEX) and then paying a class feat for less AC than they would get by getting heavy armor (through general feats or high upfront value dedications) that broken?Secret Wizard2019-09-02T16:43:39ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.rainzaxhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#632019-09-02T11:03:04Z2019-09-02T08:11:00Z<p>Ssalarn,
<br />
Necessary Preamble:
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]
<br />
...</p>
<p><b>That all said</b>, let me see if I understand your main point: You think that ability scores moving outside of their intended roles, with rare exception (Thief), can easily create unintended and probably negative impacts on the "meta" of the game, as concerns character creation. You then site that playtesting was done, and as a result, to support build diversity, the decisions that were made are currently reflected in the choices available for character creation in the CRB.</p>
<p>Specifically, you describe three rough builds for "Front-Line Monks":</p>
<p>1) Crane with DX > ST/CON/WIS (high AC/accuracy)
<br />
2) Mountain with ST > CON/WIS > DX (high AC/accuracy/damage)
<br />
3) Wolf with ST > DX/CON/WIS (high accuracy/damage, action economy tactics in lieu of high AC)</p>
<p>Next, you made specific arguments against "WIS replacing DX to AC", citing that potential consequences of a "ST/WIS>DX/CON" build entering the "meta" could be problematic by being, essentially, better in all ways.</p>
<p>I'd like to challenge that viewpoint.</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]
<br />
...</p>
<p><b>To quote you</b>
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ssarlarn wrote:</div><blockquote>If you've got the highest damage, accuracy, defenses, and class DCs all on one build frame, why (from a mechanical perspective) would you play anything else?</blockquote><p>This quote above seems to assume that a "ST/WIS>DX/CON" build (a "3+U" or "2+U" build in my middle spoiler tags), can do everything any of the other three "Front-Line Monk" build (above) can do (who are all "4" or "4+U" or "3" or "3+U" builds), by essentially committing fewer ability scores to those functions, <i>without losing out on anything significant.</i>
<p>It's the italics part I would argue against.</p>
<p>I would argue that this build is potentially a "safe" case, similar to the Thief exception, <i>because the trade-offs not only exist, but exist substantially enough to exert a force on the "meta" that this build wouldn't dominate other builds by virtue of legitimate opportunity costs.</i></p>
<p>If that makes sense, that is my counter-argument to the excellent points you make above. In short, that the opportunity costs paid by "ST/WIS>DX/CON" remain intact.</p>
<p>Here is an example to discuss, a potential character who makes use of "WIS to AC" that is theoretically in play:</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p><b>As of posting this</b>, I fail to see a hole in my line of reasoning, and would invite you to point it out for me, if'n you have the time.</p>
<p>Again, Mad respect, Dope game, and Cheers!</p>Ssalarn,
Necessary Preamble:
[Spoiler omitted]
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That all said, let me see if I understand your main point: You think that ability scores moving outside of their intended roles, with rare exception (Thief), can easily create unintended and probably negative impacts on the "meta" of the game, as concerns character creation. You then site that playtesting was done, and as a result, to support build diversity, the decisions that were made are currently reflected in the choices available for...rainzax2019-09-02T08:11:00ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Vidmaster7https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#622019-09-24T03:15:09Z2019-09-02T04:29:27Z<p>Someone was mentioning more stuff with shields.. We could get a turtle stance later on!</p>Someone was mentioning more stuff with shields.. We could get a turtle stance later on!Vidmaster72019-09-02T04:29:27ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.Ssalarn (alias of Michael Sayre, Design Manager)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#612020-09-04T18:06:35Z2019-09-02T01:02:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote> I think "Wis not Dex to AC" would work best as a class archetype, since that would make it entirely inaccessible to non-monks. </blockquote><p>The problem doesn't just lie with it being accessed by non-monks, but also what it does to the relative framework of the various possible monk builds. It's probably more significant within the monk framework, really, since right now the various styles all have some interesting facility and ways to compete with each other.
<p>Which is not to say that there's not a world where you <i>could</i> do it with a very in-depth class archetype intentionally designed to go that route, just that doing so would likely involve a lot more trades and swaps in the chassis than you might suspect. Mountain Stance exists in no small part because of the playtesting done internally at Paizo that included a STR/WIS monk with minimal Dex. Non-Dex stats to AC are fairly fraught and can have a significant impact on the internal balance of any class. It'd definitely have a more significant impact than the only other stat replacement currently in existence, the rogue (thief)'s ability to add Dex to damage.</p>PossibleCabbage wrote:I think "Wis not Dex to AC" would work best as a class archetype, since that would make it entirely inaccessible to non-monks.
The problem doesn't just lie with it being accessed by non-monks, but also what it does to the relative framework of the various possible monk builds. It's probably more significant within the monk framework, really, since right now the various styles all have some interesting facility and ways to compete with each other. Which is not to say...Ssalarn (alias of Michael Sayre, Design Manager)2019-09-02T01:02:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Discussion: So, Monks are a bit of a mess.PossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42qeq&page=2?So-Monks-are-a-bit-of-a-mess#602019-09-15T15:29:36Z2019-09-02T00:45:59Z<p>I think "Wis not Dex to AC" would work best as a class archetype, since that would make it entirely inaccessible to non-monks.</p>I think "Wis not Dex to AC" would work best as a class archetype, since that would make it entirely inaccessible to non-monks.PossibleCabbage2019-09-02T00:45:59Z