Ammunition and thrown weapons


Rules Discussion

Scarab Sages

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PF1 was explicit about when ammunition was destroyed and when it could be recovered. Ammo in PF2 doesn't have anything explicit, as far as I can tell, and doesn't have the consumable trait. So is all ammo assumed destroyed, or is there a rule I'm overlooking?

I have one player who runs around and collects shuriken after every combat. I don't really care that he picks up thrown weapons, but it did prompt the larger question about ammunition. Has anyone noticed a specific rule, or if you're a watcher of the streams has it ever come up there?

Sczarni

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Page 533 of the Core Rulebook wrote:
Consumables (page 559) are used up when you activate them, and include ammunition, oils, potions, scrolls, and talismans, among others. Categories of items that are consumables but have specific rules, such as alchemical items, are presented separately.

Scarab Sages

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Thanks. So all ammunition is included in the definition of consumables. I wish they'd mentioned that in the equipment section on page 280, or at least included the consumable trait in table 6-8.

Sovereign Court

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I would think thrown weapons would be a different story though.

Scarab Sages

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Me, too. I don't see any reason why they couldn't recover those.


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The quote provide is from the sidebar titled "Item Categories" in the Crafting & Treasure chapter, and the page it references when defining consumables is further into the chapter and the referenced section only has magical ammunition listed.

There is zero text in the book that supports the idea that the 10 arrows you pay 1 sp and a L bulk to have an hold are not recoverable and reusable just like arrows are in the real world.

...but yeah, put magic on one then fire it, and boom, no more arrow.

Scarab Sages

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Just like arrows in the real world? I don’t think real world analogues hold up so well in the game world. Sure, I can go pull an arrow out of a hay bale after I shoot it. A non-carbon fiber arrow shot into a guy’s chest, who then falls on it and has his corpse trampled by Valeros in the fight? And other ammo, like sling bullets that fly wherever? Who knows.

But I agree this probably isn’t absolute proof than ammunition is intended to be consumable.

Sczarni

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How many times would you prefer text to be repeated in the Core Rulebook before you deem it to be applicable?

When I read, "Consumables are used up when you activate them, and include ammunition", it doesn't matter to me if it's in the Equipment section, the Magic Item section, or the Ancestries section.

Scarab Sages

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I think that's a little condescending. It's not about anyone deeming anything acceptable. It's about trying to understand the rules as written.

The first sentence indicates that it applies to that section. Ammunition is then specified to begin on that page, which tells me that it isn't referring to mundane ammo a couple hundred pages prior.

Given that everything else in the Core Rulebook makes use of traits, it would be more convincing if they'd put the consumable trait in the traits column for the mundane ammo.


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Yeah, that feels like really shallow straw-man to me.
He never once tried to dispute the rule's applicability,
although somebody else pointed out it's weak standing re: non-magical ammo.
He merely said he "wished they mentioned it" in main Equipment section.
That a rule is technically valid doesn't mean it was expressed in ideal and obvious way.
This is even a productive topic given they are planning an Errata and adding a "Consumable" tag to ammo rules is likely possible.


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Uh... I don't need text repeated for me to deem it applicable... I just need it actually say it's applicable. Such as by being included in the sections it applies to, or at least the first of such sections to apply in the book and then be called back to with a page reference - heck, I'll even put up with the absolutely nonsensical organizational structure of waiting until the last section in which it's relevant to actually explain something so long as it makes a clear call-back to earlier sections.

But no, I'm not just going to apply what chapter 11 - that I might not ever have a reason to crack open in the first place because maybe I'm not playing a crafting character and am not the GM so I'm not handing out treasure either - says to the items that don't say so much as a peep or page reference about it in chapter 6. That's not how reading works, and I don't know why someone would act like it is.

Sovereign Court

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Not to mention there have been several previous versions of d+d where magic ammunition was the only ammunition you needed to track as a one use item.

So not remotely unreasonable to want clarification on whether it applies to regular ammunition.

Sczarni

If that sidebar existed on the page with mundane equipment, would you then argue it didn't apply to magical ammunition?


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Nefreet wrote:
If that sidebar existed on the page with mundane equipment, would you then argue it didn't apply to magical ammunition?

All black goblins have red eyes: what does this statement tell you about green goblins? nothing.

Now, goblins have red eyes: what does this tell you about green goblins? That they have red eyes...

As you can see, you're talking apples and oranges. All magic ammo is ammo while all ammo isn't magic ammo. So it DOES matter where the sidebar is.

Sczarni

I seriously cannot believe people are defending this idea.

The sidebar is literally titled "Item Categories", and begins with "Items are grouped into the following categories..."

Not, "Items in this Chapter...", or, "Magic Items..."

And the *first* example of a consumable item is ammunition. I realize text is left to interpretation, but honestly, how much clearer can you ask for?

Scarab Sages

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Nefreet wrote:
And the *first* example of a consumable item is ammunition. I realize text is left to interpretation, but honestly, how much clearer can you ask for?

And then the ammunition section immediately after literally defines ammunition in this context as magic items.

Quote:
These magic items are ammunition for ranged weapons.

I understand how you concluded what you did, but the more I read it the more I think this section has nothing to do with ammo in general. The same section even says that launching the ammunition consumes its magic, which implies that the ammo isn’t consumed and you’re left with mundane ammo with no magical properties.


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Nefreet wrote:
If that sidebar existed on the page with mundane equipment, would you then argue it didn't apply to magical ammunition?

Probably not, because unlike mundane ammunition magical ammunition entries all contain the "consumable" tag clearly marking them.

Which is why I believe that there is a difference - one is clearly labeled and consistently referred to in all relevant places; the other is mundane ammunition.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The OP is right to ask this question. It's unclear to some extent, though the wording from that Item Categories sidebar does seem to suggest that all arrows, bolts and sling bullets are considered to be consumables, used up in the same way a potion is.

One of the stated goals of PF2 is to reduce record keeping, so I would've expected to see a quiver or arrows listed rather than ten arrows. If the quiver of arrows were listed, we could just assume the character kept it full, just like a material components bag or healer's tools that a character is assumed to maintain and keep full.

So the end reseult appears to be that ammunition is expended and lost on use. And so it must be tracked. And replacement ammunition paid for from your wealth.

Nothing is said about spears, javelins, throwing axes, thrown daggers or the like, so you must be able to recover them intact.

IMHO, at the very least, an archer character should be able to recover arrow or bolt-making materials after a fight and craft them relatively quickly during those long nights around a campfire. But that would be a house rule. The RAW appear to require you to spend gold and 4 days getting ready before you can start making arrows, regardless of your access to raw materials. House rules about scrounging from a battlefield appear to be in order.


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The listing of "10 arrows" rather than "quiver of arrows" has no inherent bearing on whether or not each arrow fired is meant to be removed from play.

I say that because the function of saying "10 arrows" rather than "quiver of arrows" is to set a clear limit how many Strikes you can make with your bow before your quiver runs empty and you need to switch weapons, improvise, or recover some ammunition mid-battle - and it doesn't have to be anything more than that.

I will add to that that mundane ammunition being recoverable, barring specific exception such as leaving the field of battle before having the opportunity to recover fired ammo or the like, is a reduction in book-keeping - as is having magical ammunition get fully used up, rather than only the magic being used up and the ammunition becoming mundane.

And lastly, a hypothesis: the thought that mundane ammunition is used up because magical ammunition is stated as being used up is coming from a thought process that expects the new edition to behave like the old edition unless a specific piece of text says "this is different than it used to be" more so than a reading of the text in the new rules by itself as a stand-alone entity saying anything directly related to the idea.


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thenobledrake wrote:

The listing of "10 arrows" rather than "quiver of arrows" has no inherent bearing on whether or not each arrow fired is meant to be removed from play.

I say that because the function of saying "10 arrows" rather than "quiver of arrows" is to set a clear limit how many Strikes you can make with your bow before your quiver runs empty and you need to switch weapons, improvise, or recover some ammunition mid-battle - and it doesn't have to be anything more than that.

I will add to that that mundane ammunition being recoverable, barring specific exception such as leaving the field of battle before having the opportunity to recover fired ammo or the like, is a reduction in book-keeping - as is having magical ammunition get fully used up, rather than only the magic being used up and the ammunition becoming mundane.

And lastly, a hypothesis: the thought that mundane ammunition is used up because magical ammunition is stated as being used up is coming from a thought process that expects the new edition to behave like the old edition unless a specific piece of text says "this is different than it used to be" more so than a reading of the text in the new rules by itself as a stand-alone entity saying anything directly related to the idea.

I like thenobledrake's interpretation and think it should be added as an errata, namely:

"All non-magic ammunition can be recovered from the battlefield after 10 minutes of searching."
A nice simple single sentence to clear up the misunderstanding, minimise book keeping for generally trifling amounts of money and make most people happy :)


Speaking about arrows and Bulk. They should be heaviest to me, considering a flask of acid has also L bulk, shouldn't the arrows have Bulk 5L or something?

Scarab Sages

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It looks like this was covered in the errata.

Core Rulebook Errata wrote:
Using ammunition destroys it.

Sczarni

I was just going to post the same thing ^_^

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