Lost Omens HellKnight Armiger


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Okay, I was told we would have a Hellknight archetype in this book but from what I see it is not playable with the given information.

The following is from the dedication:

"HELLKNIGHT ARMIGER DEDICATION FEAT 2
UNCOMMON
ARCHETYPE
DEDICATION
Prerequisites member of a Hellknight order, trained in heavy armor as well as your order’s favored weapon; Access You are from Old Cheliax."

So, how do you become a Hellknight when you have no information on the hellknight orders nor do you have any info on the orders favored weapon. Yes, I know I can find this info online but that is for 1st ed not 2nd.

Note, no requirement on Lawful alignment?

Maybe I am missing something... seems pretty weak and.... rushed!

I only have the PDF and I much prefer paper manuals, so maybe I am missing some info.

Your thoughts?


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Presumably the "lawful alignment" part is encoded in "member of a Hellknight order".

Presumably the weapons favored by each order have not changed, since the lore hasn't really changed. There are after all PF2 stats for the Flail (Chain), Dagger (Gate), Morningstar (Godclaw), Halberd (Nail), Glaive (Pyre), Longsword (Rack), Whip (Scourge), Greataxe (Coil), Battleaxe (Glyph), Longspear (Pike), and Rapier (Scar). So I'd just go with that if these associations aren't in the book. Presumably they'll be in another book.


If it is as OP described that seems like silly error. should of had sideprint stating Hellknight Order and favored weapon arent need till new book out.


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It seems silly to rush to the forums when most of us can't actually read the book yet and you said yourself you didn't really read it.

For PFS, it's likely there will be some kind of access boon for things like "member of a Hellknight order"

For a home game, talk to your GM? It's kind of unrealistic for everything to be 100% spelled out in the new edition all at once. Draw on 1E for a little bit.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
cavernshark wrote:

It seems silly to rush to the forums when most of us can't actually read the book yet and you said yourself you didn't really read it.

For PFS, it's likely there will be some kind of access boon for things like "member of a Hellknight order"

For a home game, talk to your GM? It's kind of unrealistic for everything to be 100% spelled out in the new edition all at once. Draw on 1E for a little bit.

I have searched the PDF for "Hellknight", "order of the" only 3 orders are discussed and only very short bits, no meat.

I am new to Pathfinder and have no knowledge of PF1 to draw from. Nor do I know anyone that plays Pathfinder

Please note below, you have to be a member of a hellknight order, trained in heavy armor and the orders fav weapon, and reads like you had to go through the reckoning.... and if it is the same as I understand from wiki (PF1) the reckonings are different per order.
This is the entire dedication:

HELLKNIGHT ARMIGER DEDICATION FEAT 2
UNCOMMON
ARCHETYPE
DEDICATION
Prerequisites member of a Hellknight order, trained in heavy armor as well as your order’s favored weapon; Access You are from Old Cheliax.
Your Hellknight training teaches you to terrorize others into compliance, but you also study the structure and hierarchy of Hell. You must survive painful tests of your body and mind called reckonings, which steady your mind against all sorts of trauma. You gain resistance to mental damage equal to 1 + your number of class feats from the Hellknight Armiger archetype and other Hellknight archetypes. You become trained in Intimidation and Hell Lore; if you were already trained, you become an expert instead.
Special You can’t select another dedication feat except dedication feats for higher positions within the Hellknights until you have gained two other feats from the Hellknight armiger archetype.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Presumably the "lawful alignment" part is encoded in "member of a Hellknight order".

Presumably the weapons favored by each order have not changed, since the lore hasn't really changed. There are after all PF2 stats for the Flail (Chain), Dagger (Gate), Morningstar (Godclaw), Halberd (Nail), Glaive (Pyre), Longsword (Rack), Whip (Scourge), Greataxe (Coil), Battleaxe (Glyph), Longspear (Pike), and Rapier (Scar). So I'd just go with that if these associations aren't in the book. Presumably they'll be in another book.

You might be right on lawful being part of being a member of one of the orders, but they do not have any of this info. I check in the backgrounds for the area and none of them make you a member of an order.


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I think it's possible that being a member of a Hell knight order is intended to be a thing that happens in story, instead of through a build option. I know that in an interview on Know Direction, they mentioned that passing the test to become a Hell Knight (full fledged, not armiger) is intended to be a requirement in game, rather than in build.

If they didn't devote the page count to laying out the orders, I think using the PF1 lore about them is probably the best answer for now.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Yea looking at the pdf they orders and their weps are not listed in the book. They are in the online resources from PF1 and I imagine they haven't changed between editions.

Until an official new listing is released for 2e I'd either use the ones online from 1e or talk to the DM about what they want to do for the orders as they're largely roleplay/story elements.

As to why they're not in the book it's probably because it's not a book about hellknights and listing all the orders and everything about them could take considerable page count. And if they just listed the weps people would be asking why the other parts of the orders aren't listed as well.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Thanks all. I was hoping that I missed some info in the book as this feat system of Pathfinder throws me for a loop at times.
Thanks again for all the responses


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I believe that the "meat" of the orders (weapons, etc) will be in the very next book... the Lost Omens Character Guide. Hellknights are in it.

It was future-proofing. The various books now feed off each other. Until October... you can just use prior books for those weapons.


Yep, I'm pretty sure the reason is that reprinting something that is coming in the next book would mean less wordcount on new things.

Vlorax wrote:
As to why they're not in the book it's probably because it's not a book about hellknights and listing all the orders and everything about them could take considerable page count. And if they just listed the weps people would be asking why the other parts of the orders aren't listed as well.


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Since it's 'Uncommon' it's going to possible only if your GM says 'ok'. This is generally supposed to be part of the overall story. So if the GM is going to ok it, they'll have to be comfortable with their Hellknight lore to do so.

It does seem that since Paizo hasn't detailed all the orders and their favoured weapons in that book it could cause confusion. However I just typed 'Hellknight orders' into Google and got that information right away. So it's not a major issue.

What is a (minor) issue however is ... 'Access You are from Old Cheliax'

Why? Because there's Citadel Vraid sitting nearby Korvosa in Varisia. It houses members of the Order of the Nail. I'd have thought it would be ok to become a member of that order without having been born in Old Cheliax. Surely they take the occasional recruit from Korvosa, someone who has Chelish ancestors but was born and bred in Varisia?

Perhaps it's all in the interpretation of the word 'from'?


Being from Korvosa is one of those "ask your GM, my backstory implies I should have access to this" kinds of things about the Uncommon rarity. People who are from Old Cheliax are assumed to know where they can find some Hellknights, but people from elsewhere might or might not.


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Yossarian wrote:

Since it's 'Uncommon' it's going to possible only if your GM says 'ok'. This is generally supposed to be part of the overall story. So if the GM is going to ok it, they'll have to be comfortable with their Hellknight lore to do so.

It does seem that since Paizo hasn't detailed all the orders and their favoured weapons in that book it could cause confusion. However I just typed 'Hellknight orders' into Google and got that information right away. So it's not a major issue.

What is a (minor) issue however is ... 'Access You are from Old Cheliax'

Why? Because there's Citadel Vraid sitting nearby Korvosa in Varisia. It houses members of the Order of the Nail. I'd have thought it would be ok to become a member of that order without having been born in Old Cheliax. Surely they take the occasional recruit from Korvosa, someone who has Chelish ancestors but was born and bred in Varisia?

Perhaps it's all in the interpretation of the word 'from'?

All the Archetypes in the Lost Omens World Guide have the location listed for Access. I think it's just another way to gate the Archetype (similar to rarity).

If I was DMing I'd rule that if you're from there you have access or if there's a story/plot reason for a PC to have spent time with Hellknights and had an opportunity to join they'd have Access.

I think it's to prevent a scenario where a DM says you can use Uncommon Archetypes and can still gate a PC from Mawangi somehow also being a Hellknight even though they've never been to Cheliax


I don't think it quite works to assume Lawful wasn't mentioned because it assumes you are lawful as being part of a Hellknight order, or at least, it doesn't fit with the fact that they don't make the same assumption about the Red Mantis Assassins (I don't have the book, I'm just going off what we were told).


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Ramanujan wrote:
I don't think it quite works to assume Lawful wasn't mentioned because it assumes you are lawful as being part of a Hellknight order, or at least, it doesn't fit with the fact that they don't make the same assumption about the Red Mantis Assassins (I don't have the book, I'm just going off what we were told).

I think you're right, it doesn't specify Lawful for Hellknight but it does have alignment restriction for Red Mantis

RedMantis wrote:

Prerequisites trained in sawtooth sabers, deity is Achaekek,

lawful evil alignment, member of the Red Mantis assassins;
Access You are from Mediogalti Island.


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Yossarian wrote:


What is a (minor) issue however is ... 'Access You are from Old Cheliax'

Why? Because there's Citadel Vraid sitting nearby Korvosa in Varisia. It houses members of the Order of the Nail. I'd have thought it would be ok to become a member of that order without having been born in Old Cheliax. Surely they take the occasional recruit from Korvosa, someone who has Chelish ancestors but was born and bred in Varisia?

Perhaps it's all in the interpretation of the word 'from'?

Old Cheliax is one of the Meta Regions they mention in the CRB. Per the map they showed earlier in the year Korvosa is Part of that Region, even if it is on outer edges of said Meta Region.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Smugmug wrote:
Yossarian wrote:


What is a (minor) issue however is ... 'Access You are from Old Cheliax'

Why? Because there's Citadel Vraid sitting nearby Korvosa in Varisia. It houses members of the Order of the Nail. I'd have thought it would be ok to become a member of that order without having been born in Old Cheliax. Surely they take the occasional recruit from Korvosa, someone who has Chelish ancestors but was born and bred in Varisia?

Perhaps it's all in the interpretation of the word 'from'?

Old Cheliax is one of the Meta Regions they mention in the CRB. Per the map they showed earlier in the year Korvosa is Part of that Region, even if it is on outer edges of said Meta Region.

I'm not sure that's correct. In the blog post on Old Cheliax, there was no mention of Korvosa. It was mentioned in the Saga Langs blog post, however. Wouldn't that be a clear indication that Korvosa is in the Saga Lands?

On the other hand, Citadel Vraid itself is ~50 miles south of Korvosa, which could put it in Old Cheliax.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Mechalibur wrote:
Smugmug wrote:
Yossarian wrote:


What is a (minor) issue however is ... 'Access You are from Old Cheliax'

Why? Because there's Citadel Vraid sitting nearby Korvosa in Varisia. It houses members of the Order of the Nail. I'd have thought it would be ok to become a member of that order without having been born in Old Cheliax. Surely they take the occasional recruit from Korvosa, someone who has Chelish ancestors but was born and bred in Varisia?

Perhaps it's all in the interpretation of the word 'from'?

Old Cheliax is one of the Meta Regions they mention in the CRB. Per the map they showed earlier in the year Korvosa is Part of that Region, even if it is on outer edges of said Meta Region.

I'm not sure that's correct. In the blog post on Old Cheliax, there was no mention of Korvosa. It was mentioned in the Saga Langs blog post, however. Wouldn't that be a clear indication that Korvosa is in the Saga Lands?

On the other hand, Citadel Vraid itself is ~50 miles south of Korvosa, which could put it in Old Cheliax.

From the Map in The Lost Omens book, Korvosa is at the bottom edge of The Saga Lands. Going by the scale 50m south would probably be in the top of Old Cheliax

Sovereign Court

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Isn’t the Old Cheliax bit meant to bypass the uncommon nature? Ie if you are from Old Cheliax where the Hellknights are from it would be fairly ‘easy’ to access their orders. However if you are from elsewhere (Korvosa in the above examples) then because it is uncommon you would need GM approval for that.


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It feels like "I am from [place], here is a textural reference for some hellknights based nearby, I would like to have an association with them" would be a pretty easy thing to get the GM to sign off on.

Like I don't want to invent Hellknights active in, say, Galt but anything you show me in a book I can go along with.


Vlorax wrote:

From the Map in The Lost Omens book, Korvosa is at the bottom edge of The Saga Lands. Going by the scale 50m south would probably be in the top of Old Cheliax

Is the map in the book a different one from the one they posted in May? https://cdn.paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderWorldGuides/20190521-LostOmen sMap.jpg

Because per that one the border of Saga Lands and Old Cheliax runs at the north end of the bay Korvose is located at the south end of.


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... I kind of feel like "use the information from 1e, it will probably be in the next book though" is kind of a copout to be honest.

Shouldn't something in a book be playable using that book? The idea that everyone has to either be familiar with 1e or have to buy another book to find out what the favored weapons are seems really anti-new players and a clear mistake.

Silver Crusade

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The information on Hellknight Orders are readily and freely available and even in 1st "member of a Hellknight Order" wasn't a Feat, it was a story.

They couldn't fit every narrative mechanical effect from 1e into the first set of books, and we have no reason to suspect the Orders or their weapons have radically changed. It's no more difficult or anti-player than making a character come from a country that hasn't been detailed a lot, which happened all the time in 1e.


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It literally asks for a requirement that the person buying the book has no way of knowing from the book itself. I'm not talking about "member of the hellknight order", that is a roleplaying requirement I'm talking about "be proficient in the weapon of your order". That is an actual mechanical requirement.

It's asking you to be proficient in a weapon without telling you what weapon you have to be proficient in. That seems like a glaring mistake.

The fact that its stated in an old book (and therefore available online) is a copout.

Material in books shouldn't be unusable without knowledge outside that book and the CRB.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It is not a copout in the slightest, because again that information is readily available (I didn't get into Pathfinder until 2012 when there was already a bunch of info out, that didn't cut me off, I just used the Wiki), and there's the fact that the GM can make up Orders.

"Material in books shouldn't be unusable without knowledge outside that book and the CRB."

That would cause a lot of issues with setting focused books.

Aka they shouldn't have to reprint the complete Hellknight mechanics and narrative anytime they release options for Hellknights.


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Rysky wrote:

"Material in books shouldn't be unusable without knowledge outside that book and the CRB."

That would cause a lot of issues with setting focused books.

Aka they shouldn't have to reprint the complete Hellknight mechanics and narrative anytime they release options for Hellknights.

What if, and this might seem like a bit of a radical idea here so bear with me. What if they wrote up the book and went "huh. We can't actually include enough content so that this is playable for people who are brand new to this edition. Why don't we exclude this archetype from this book and wait until we can devote enough pagecount to fully detail how people become members of a Hellknight Order and what some of the Hellknight Order favoured weapons actually are."

Hopefully this is an isolated incident and the other archetypes are fully playable without "GMs making it up" or players having to buy content for an outdated edition filled with mechanics they have no interest in.

Fortunately for me Hellknight orders don't really seem to mesh well with the flavour of Eberron (and being in a lore book they're unlikely to just accidentally come across them as opposed to if they were included in the Advanced Player's Guide). Hopefully the other archetypes that I can use don't require as much work to make them playable.

Silver Crusade

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John Lynch 106 wrote:
Why don't we exclude this archetype from this book and wait until we can devote enough pagecount to fully detail how people become members of a Hellknight Order and what some of the Hellknight Order favoured weapons actually are."

They already did.

The narrative and weapons are listed and still completely valid in 2e.


Rysky wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Why don't we exclude this archetype from this book and wait until we can devote enough pagecount to fully detail how people become members of a Hellknight Order and what some of the Hellknight Order favoured weapons actually are."

They already did.

The narrative and weapons are listed and still completely valid in 2e.

That wasn't really a good faith answer to my post. Given that I'm going to refrain from responding any further.

Silver Crusade

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It was, it's a book all about the Hellknights and their Orders.

For the purposes of flavor edition changes are irrelevant. Aside from mechanics everything in that book is valid.

None of the weapons they use are absent. "Order of the Nail use the Halberd" is the simplest thing to find out.


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I think it's unfair to ask people new to a game setting to buy books from some outdated edition that are filled with mechanics they have no interest in.

Silver Crusade

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No one is, that book is there if they want a bunch of info on the Hellknight Orders.

A lot of which they can get online for free.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm going to agree, a sidebar doesn't take up much space. A GM can make up new orders, but why should a GM be expected to create content to make an archetype they paid money to get useable?
When I buy an RPG book, I know errata and FAQs will change some things. But I still expect it to be useable right out of the box.


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From a freely available wiki (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Hellknight)
Order of the Chain: Flail
Order of the Gate: Dagger
Order of the Godclaw: Morningstar
Order of the Nail: Halberd or Lance
Order of the Pyre: Glaive
Order of the Rack: Longsword or Whip
Order of the Scourge: Heavy Mace, Scourge or Whip

Lesser Orders:
Order of the Coil: Greataxe
Order of the Glyph: Battleaxe
Order of the Pike: Longspear
Order of the Scar: Rapier
Order of the Torrent: Longbow or Halberd

There is very little info on the wiki page about some of the lesser orders, yet it has the favoured weapons for all of them.


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PF1 CRB was published in Aug 2009. ISWG was published in Mar 2011. For almost two years, PF1 players were using the information from the Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting published in Aug 2008 for the 3.5 edition. That was also before the free online resources such as AON and PFWiki became widespread and chock-full of content.

Now, the LOWG is published a few weeks after the edition change and heaps of setting info are available online, and yet still people complain that the same info hasn't been reprinted with the PF2 tag on it, despite it not being related to the system mechanics at all... *eyeroll*


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CyberMephit wrote:

PF1 CRB was published in Aug 2009. ISWG was published in Mar 2011. For almost two years, PF1 players were using the information from the Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting published in Aug 2008 for the 3.5 edition. That was also before the free online resources such as AON and PFWiki became widespread and chock-full of content.

Now, the LOWG is published a few weeks after the edition change and heaps of setting info are available online, and yet still people complain that the same info hasn't been reprinted with the PF2 tag on it, despite it not being related to the system mechanics at all... *eyeroll*

I am not aware of any archetypes or prestige classes in the CRB, APG or any other books that were published between Aug 2009 and Mar 2011 that relied on 3.5e content. Can you please point them out to me so I can see the parallel between that situation and the current one?


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Ramanujan wrote:
From a freely available wiki (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Hellknight)

Did the new book direct you to that website or did you have to know it exists to find it? Does the site make it clear that it's comparable with the new system? Does the new player looking for pathfinder 2 information know that info is valid? This edition is meant to be new player friendly and that's not sounding too friendly.

CyberMephit wrote:

PF1 CRB was published in Aug 2009. ISWG was published in Mar 2011. For almost two years, PF1 players were using the information from the Pathfinder Chronicles: Campaign Setting published in Aug 2008 for the 3.5 edition. That was also before the free online resources such as AON and PFWiki became widespread and chock-full of content.

Now, the LOWG is published a few weeks after the edition change and heaps of setting info are available online, and yet still people complain that the same info hasn't been reprinted with the PF2 tag on it, despite it not being related to the system mechanics at all... *eyeroll*

Not really the same situation though as the thrust of the game was that you didn't have to go to a whole new system and everything was backwards compatible. A 3.5 pathfinder item WAS usable out of the box and the expected user was a returning player of 3.5.

So I think we have much different expectation with the entirely different rule set and the thrust on new player usability than the last change. I could eyeroll at equating the complete different situations in the editions rollouts and expected audience but that would be a bit rude don't you think?

Silver Crusade

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graystone wrote:
Does the site make it clear that it's comparable with the new system?

It's a new edition, not a new setting.


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How good of an answer "use these older materials for reference" is depends on the question it's trying to answer.

It isn't a good answer to "why is this archetype in a book that doesn't have any of that information, which hasn't been republished in this edition, yet?"

It is the best answer we've got right now to "How can I use this archetype, today?"


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
I am not aware of any archetypes or prestige classes in the CRB, APG or any other books that were published between Aug 2009 and Mar 2011 that relied on 3.5e content.

The first AP for PF1, Council of Thieves, prominently featured Hellknights. The first volume of that AP mentioned two NPCs with Hellknight PrC levels. The PrC didn't even exist at the time and eventually appeared in the third volume of the AP, together with all the information about the orders and their weapons. Armigers were just warriors. Signifiers didn't appear as their own PrC until much later. Right now we just have one setting book and one AP volume - let's give them until October at least?

graystone wrote:
Not really the same situation though as the thrust of the game was that you didn't have to go to a whole new system and everything was backwards compatible. <..> So I think we have much different expectation with the entirely different rule set and the thrust on new player usability than the last change.

Well, the thrust of THIS game is that you don't have to go to a whole new setting. And even as the mechanical underpinnings change the developers mentioned multiple times that adventure compatibility is one of the priorities, which can be seen in the recently published conversion guide, for example.

You are conflating rulebooks and setting material, when really they are mostly independent. I don't think it's an axiom that PF2 should be geared towards people who never played PF1 - I think Paizo wants to retain much of their core audience as well as get some new players. I would think that having much more information about Golarion online, unrestricted by what can fit in a single book, should be seen as a boon for the new players?

I'm not going to argue that it wouldn't have been better to have everything included, I just disagree that it makes the book unusable and not worth the purchase. I assume that the Order material would have been included if it was possible, and I think it's very likely that we will see it updated relatively soon (I'd give it a year at most).

graystone wrote:
I could eyeroll at equating the complete different situations in the editions rollouts and expected audience but that would be a bit rude don't you think?

I did not mean to direct it at any specific poster and I apologize for any offense; however, from the point of view of a person who is excited about PF2 and comes to the forums to see what fun things people have discovered, the amount of over-the-top complaining about issues which to me seem very minor (if technically valid) is disheartening (not singling out your posts personally but in general looking at the first page of the thread list).


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CyberMephit wrote:
let's give them until October at least?

If they’re going to release the missing information in October, why not hold off on the Hellknight archetype until then and include it in the book that has the relevant information?

Silver Crusade

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Because the "relevant information" is already out and well known.

It's not missing any mechanics.


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Im just going to say they should of included a sidebar that noted players and gms don't need to include order and favorite weapon till new book out. Cause tell new players to go search online to just get piece of info that not included seems like bad strategy.


Reziburno25 wrote:
Im just going to say they should of included a sidebar that noted players and gms don't need to include order and favorite weapon till new book out. Cause tell new players to go search online to just get piece of info that not included seems like bad strategy.

I think the point is more that this is an Archetype build to fit into a story that is already in progress and fits well with the theme, meaning you choices to become a hell Knight and use a particular weapon will be story driven.

We’ll see if it works out that way or if people find some children build that suddenly has every fighter picking up a flail or a spear or a dagger or what have you, but it seems like an intentional push towards narrative characters to fit a story rather than mechanical ones.


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There is a difference between NPCs in an AP having a class that wasn't released yet (I bet that it described what those mechanics in that class that they had did), and a PC Archetype being listed that DOESN'T ACTUALLY INCLUDE ALL THE RELEVANT INFORMATION TO QUALIFY FOR IT.

I can't imagine coming in new and expecting it to be like, you know, any other system and actually being able to play it from the books for that edition and learning that I have to go look up information from the last edition to make it work.

Detailing all the orders isn't necessary, but you could have easily given us like "Here are three orders, there are more but they will be expanded in further books" or even "Here are the favored weapons of the orders".

Do they want PF2e to be a stepping on point for new players, or do they just want it to be for diehards who already know the setting?

Telling everyone to go google it is ridiculous. No one should have to google to figure out how to use something that is printed in a rulebook for a game.


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Unicore wrote:

I think the point is more that this is an Archetype build to fit into a story that is already in progress and fits well with the theme, meaning you choices to become a hell Knight and use a particular weapon will be story driven.

We’ll see if it works out that way or if people find some children build that suddenly has every fighter picking up a flail or a spear or a dagger or what have you, but it seems like an intentional push towards narrative characters to fit a story rather than mechanical ones.

Again, joining a Hellknight order is a narrative requirement.

Being proficient in their favored weapon is not. It is a mechanical one.

How can I know if I'm proficient in their favored weapon if we aren't told what their favored weapon IS?

How, from the book, am I supposed to know if I qualify?

Silver Crusade

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NA Palm wrote:
Do they want PF2e to be a stepping on point for new players, or do they just want it to be for diehards who already know the setting?
No one is cut off from that knowledge that was previously released, it's not something you missed out on.
Quote:
Telling everyone to go google it is ridiculous. No one should have to google to figure out how to use something that is printed in a rulebook for a game.

You're not googling to figure that out though (even though the Archives of Nethys is explicitly for this), you just need to know what type of weapon. Which is the simplest thing to find out.

10 years of mechanics is incompatible, the stories and flavor is not.


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... How is "I have to google to know what the favored weapons that are necessary to qualify for this" not having to google to figure it out?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

"To figure out how to use something"

You're not looking up mechanics, you're looking up what weapon this order likes.

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