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I personally think that it is okay to kill for food and self-defense. Killing on sight is only okay versus pests (ex: cockroaches).
If you are fighting enemies and the surrender then I won't kill them. But if they don't I am not going to give them the chance to kill my character. If I am playing a character that is merciful or the person is a capture target then sure.
Finally, the alignment system tells you how the creature might behave right now. Not how they will behave in the future. If something pings as evil but they are actively trying to be good then they should be helped to be good, not punished. Similarly, if a good creature starts thinking of doing evil things they should not be punished but helped to prevent them from acting on those thoughts.
Killing anything just because they pinged as evil is something an evil creature would do.
I fully support the kill on sight for cockroaches.
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I fully support the kill on sight for cockroaches.I personally think that it is okay to kill for food and self-defense. Killing on sight is only okay versus pests (ex: cockroaches).
If you are fighting enemies and the surrender then I won't kill them. But if they don't I am not going to give them the chance to kill my character. If I am playing a character that is merciful or the person is a capture target then sure.
Finally, the alignment system tells you how the creature might behave right now. Not how they will behave in the future. If something pings as evil but they are actively trying to be good then they should be helped to be good, not punished. Similarly, if a good creature starts thinking of doing evil things they should not be punished but helped to prevent them from acting on those thoughts.
Killing anything just because they pinged as evil is something an evil creature would do.
Think of Mommy cockroach and the children waiting for Daddy cockroach!
;-D
If they wouldn't actually do it, then its not actively evil intent.Yes, good and neutral people will occasionally commit evil acts. If you Detect Evil on them during one those times they will read as evil even though that person typically isn't evil.
Hence why Detect Evil can give a false positive.Yes, they should be stopped from committing whatever evil they were about to do, but does that mean they should die for a moment of weakness? (The answer to that will vary greatly by person, but that's kind of what this entire thread is about.)
Sure, its the example I take issue with, not the idea that Detect Evil can ping on a normally good person.
Thinking about doing evil is not an "actively evil intent." That is just a thought. People have thoughts all the time. Its when a person has decided to act upon those thoughts where they gain actively evil intent. (Because they intend to do evil, actively.)
Sorry, I forgot to clarify; yes, I agree, simply thinking evil thoughts isn't enough and my example was wrong. Detect Evil can give a false positive if a neutral or good person is commiting or about to commit a planned evil action.
(¬_¬)
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Conversations like this are why I am exceptionally happy 2e is doing away with alignments.
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Sorry, I forgot to clarify; yes, I agree, simply thinking evil thoughts isn't enough and my example was wrong. Detect Evil can give a false positive if a neutral or good person is commiting or about to commit a planned evil action.If they wouldn't actually do it, then its not actively evil intent.Yes, good and neutral people will occasionally commit evil acts. If you Detect Evil on them during one those times they will read as evil even though that person typically isn't evil.
Hence why Detect Evil can give a false positive.Yes, they should be stopped from committing whatever evil they were about to do, but does that mean they should die for a moment of weakness? (The answer to that will vary greatly by person, but that's kind of what this entire thread is about.)
Sure, its the example I take issue with, not the idea that Detect Evil can ping on a normally good person.
Thinking about doing evil is not an "actively evil intent." That is just a thought. People have thoughts all the time. Its when a person has decided to act upon those thoughts where they gain actively evil intent. (Because they intend to do evil, actively.)
Or planning with the intent to commit.
As I see it, it requires the "intention to do", not simply fantasizing, but not doing the act (because the risk is too high, or because something happened between the planning and realizing the plan, etc.) isn't enough to negate the fact that you had decided to do an evil act.
To make an example: a neutral, rich merchant decides to remove a competitor to make more money. He tries to hire an assassin, but can't find anyone competent and shelves the plan for a future time. He has planned the murder and tried to find someone to do it. He failed in finding the right person, the intention to do evil was there. Evil intention and an attempt to do an evil act. He would have pinged as evil while planning it and while searching for an assassin.
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I fully support the kill on sight for cockroaches.I personally think that it is okay to kill for food and self-defense. Killing on sight is only okay versus pests (ex: cockroaches).
If you are fighting enemies and the surrender then I won't kill them. But if they don't I am not going to give them the chance to kill my character. If I am playing a character that is merciful or the person is a capture target then sure.
Finally, the alignment system tells you how the creature might behave right now. Not how they will behave in the future. If something pings as evil but they are actively trying to be good then they should be helped to be good, not punished. Similarly, if a good creature starts thinking of doing evil things they should not be punished but helped to prevent them from acting on those thoughts.
Killing anything just because they pinged as evil is something an evil creature would do.
Think of Mommy cockroach and the children waiting for Daddy cockroach!
;-D
I did. Why do think I switched from Mortein spray + disposal to cockroach bait to make them die back in the hive and spread the poison to the thousands of unseen ones that eat their corpse.
Conversations like this are why I am exceptionally happy 2e is doing away with alignments.
Its not just alignment though like I said the other example which got me thinking about it was a player attacking an NPC in part because they weren't human then insisting they were evil, everything they had was stolen and so on when they had been the ones to start the fight and the NPC had tried non-lethal way's to defeat the party until they were so hurt they had to run away.
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I fully support the kill on sight for cockroaches.I personally think that it is okay to kill for food and self-defense. Killing on sight is only okay versus pests (ex: cockroaches).
If you are fighting enemies and the surrender then I won't kill them. But if they don't I am not going to give them the chance to kill my character. If I am playing a character that is merciful or the person is a capture target then sure.
Finally, the alignment system tells you how the creature might behave right now. Not how they will behave in the future. If something pings as evil but they are actively trying to be good then they should be helped to be good, not punished. Similarly, if a good creature starts thinking of doing evil things they should not be punished but helped to prevent them from acting on those thoughts.
Killing anything just because they pinged as evil is something an evil creature would do.
Tbf, I don't like killing mosquitoes either, so cockroaches would probably be off my kill list as well.
(fun cockroach trivia: From what I've heard they are extremely hygienic and seem to find humans grossly unhygienic)
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I fully support the kill on sight for cockroaches.I personally think that it is okay to kill for food and self-defense. Killing on sight is only okay versus pests (ex: cockroaches).
If you are fighting enemies and the surrender then I won't kill them. But if they don't I am not going to give them the chance to kill my character. If I am playing a character that is merciful or the person is a capture target then sure.
Finally, the alignment system tells you how the creature might behave right now. Not how they will behave in the future. If something pings as evil but they are actively trying to be good then they should be helped to be good, not punished. Similarly, if a good creature starts thinking of doing evil things they should not be punished but helped to prevent them from acting on those thoughts.
Killing anything just because they pinged as evil is something an evil creature would do.
Tbf, I don't like killing mosquitoes either, so cockroaches would probably be off my kill list as well.
(fun cockroach trivia: From what I've heard they are extremely hygienic and seem to find humans grossly unhygienic)
I don't care how clean the things are, I care that multiple times in my childhood when wandering to the toilet half asleep in a dark hallway they grabbed onto my big toe. It is very unnerving to a sleepy young child in a dark hallway to feel this long thin things latching onto you. To this day I will not have them in my house, elsewhere fine but not where I live.
So out of curiosity how would you handle Melazema in wrath of the righteous? A chaotic evil Umbral dragon who was drawn into the abyss long enough ago she's no longer affected by it. However she has no interest in returning to the prime material plane, feeds on the demons infesting her isle, is unbothered by a much elemental sharing her home and is stated will not attack or pursue the PC's unless they touch her stuff (treasure) or attack her in her lair after she returns from hunting (with a cateblepas she throws at them as her first action). She's the one who prompted me to make my original post as I don't like the idea of fighting her chaotic evil or not when you can just avoid her and she's only harming demons.
That is a circumstance that has to fit into one of the rare exceptions on my list. We are dealing with the Outer Realms, which is the realm of the gods and other beings and outside the scope of how I deal with Evil in the Mortal Realm. As far as I am concerned, the dragon is not only where she wants to be, but where she OUGHT to be. It is not my place to judge her morality or fate, as that is (effectively) already done. Should she pose a threat to me or my party, and attack us unprovoked, she will die and my conscious will be clean. Should she restrict herself to the demons and other evil outsiders that threaten her territory, ignoring her is the best option.
Even this kind of situation has exceptions, specifically if there are mortals present in the Outer Realms and their current fate. Mortals do not belong in the Outer Realms and if they are being mistreated or harmed, morality must come into play based on the Material world, if only to return them to where they belong.
Wrath of the Righteous pushes a lot of the boundaries of those who swear oaths and serve the forces of Good. Those with a loose understanding of the alignment system will have their foundational assumptions tested, and many people discover that their ideas of the alignment system are inherently flawed.
I have to agree that something going on in the Abyss or other outer planes is different than what is going on in the material planes. The outer planes are by nature aligned with specific alignments. In ways they are the final punishment/reward for mortal creatures. Killing the inhabitants of those planes is only a temporary thing. Even if the individual outsider stays dead the plane absorbs its essence and uses it to create more outsiders. Killing a chaotic evil creature of the Abyss does not really diminish evil. All it does is to start the cycle over again. Unless the outer planar creature is affecting other planes leaving it alone is often the best course of action.
If Melazema is really not interested in other planes especially the prime material leaving her alone is probably the best bet. If there is a reason besides killing her to bother her that might be different, but trying to kill her just to kill her is not going to make the universe better place. The fact she is killing demons means that those demons are not able to harm innocents. Let he stay and reduce the effectiveness of evil. If things ever get the point where all other evil has been eliminated that might change things, but until then there are more important evils to deal with.
Conversations like this are why I am exceptionally happy 2e is doing away with alignments.Its not just alignment though
I don't think it's an alignment thing at all! If you can take the alignment system and it's varied means of defining any particular alignment out of the conversation, you can talk to a player solely about their actions and the consequences of those actions. They can't say, "Well, my PC is x alignment, so they have to attack!"
With no alignment, there's no way the offending player can just brush off the conversation because they feel that any creature pre-disposed to be LE, NE, or CE deserves to be killed.
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Conversations like this are why I am exceptionally happy 2e is doing away with alignments.Its not just alignment thoughI don't think it's an alignment thing at all! If you can take the alignment system and it's varied means of defining any particular alignment out of the conversation, you can talk to a player solely about their actions and the consequences of those actions. They can't say, "Well, my PC is x alignment, so they have to attack!"
With no alignment, there's no way the offending player can just brush off the conversation because they feel that any creature pre-disposed to be LE, NE, or CE deserves to be killed.
I'm not so sure that would work as I said one of the events prompting this thread was a player attacking a non-humanoid for being rude and wasting their time with a side quest then saying they were evil and it was ok to take all their stolen stuff. No knowlege of alignment, no reason to believe their stuff was stolen just justifications.
This game is many things to many people.
Some people are casual and want to treat it not unlike a video game where destroying pixels of a certain colour is the point.
Some people are looking to simulate realistic scenarios with realistic people in a fantasy period where things are dark, brooding, and violent.
Some people are looking to tell a story where their inner hero shines.
Every table, every campaign, every group is a little different. And that's good.
We're just about to wrap up a War for the Crown campaign where we have never killed a living creature. Destroyed undead and constructs? Sure. But everything alive has been subdued and imprisoned or relocated. Our opening line is "we accept surrender."
Next campaign? My character literally won't accept surrender. If you start a lethal fight with her and aren't compelled to do so unwillingly, well, you made a mistake and that mistake will be met with like response.
Different stories. It's okay. It's... more than okay... it's great.
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Alignment does not force you on acting a certain way which is why you are able to change alignments in the first place. Outsiders from the 9 aligned planes don't change alignment easily because they are literally made of it.
Actually in some cases it does. especially things like Demons and Devils, etc. or other creatures that have been "corrupted" by certain alignments, such is the historical lore with orcs (per Tolkein, being corrupted elves and the original lore with Drow). (also, angels, etc)
But yes, as you say, some things do change alignments, normally by acting outside of their alignments, but, this should be rare, as people and creatures typically act according to their nature.
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In the case of aligned outsiders, it is not the alignment itself that is forcing you to act in a certain way; it is the nature of the outsider. There is a little bit of a chicken and the egg circumstance in this case, but the reason the outsider acts in a certain way is because it is their nature. If it was the alignment than a non-outsider creature of the same alignment would also be forced to act that way.
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Removing the alignment game mechanic from the game is not going to remove the idea of good and evil. The concept of good and evil is as old as humanity itself. Many of the stories and legends that inspire the gaming are rooted in those concepts. Even today in the real world we see conflicts that people view as a struggle between those two concepts. Even in systems that lack any kind of alignment game mechanic many of the adventures are based on that very conflict.
What the alignment game mechanic really does is to define what is considered good or evil. I suspect that some of the people who don’t like the alignment system might be because that it forces them to examine their own behavior. No one want to think of themselves as evil, and when some of your personal behavior or beliefs are flagged as being evil it probably makes you uncomfortable.
]Can Detect Evil fail to ping if the (evil) target is actively planning something Good?
Can I use that to fool the paladins?
RAW - no
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All the alignment detections spells do is detect the presence of said alignment or active intents that match that alignment. So, a good character that has evil intents will detect as both good and evil, likewise with an evil character with good intents. The presence of one alignment does not affect the other. So, the evil character cannot fool the paladin by having good intents but can register on the clerics detect good by doing so.
Can Detect Evil fail to ping if the (evil) target is actively planning something Good?
From Detect Good: "This spell functions like detect evil..." so yeah, I would think so.
Can I use that to fool the paladins?
If your intention to "do good" is mostly feuled by the plan to trick someone into thinking you're good then no, it won't work because it's not good intentions.
See alignment has some advantages over the detect alignment spells but is not infallible either. You probably won’t get as many false readings, but it is still basically a yes/no scenario.
If you want to fool an alignment detecting spells Imbue with Aura will do the trick. The spell only works for clerics and warpriests. Technically an oracle can learn and cast the spell, but since they lack a clerical aura, it does not work for them. It will fool a paladin, but getting a caster willing to cast it for that might be difficult. Since it gives the cleric own alignment aura you need a cleric of a good deity to gain an aura of good. A neutral cleric of a good deity can cast the spell, but doing so will probably be considered violating the code of conduct of the deity and likely cause the character to become an ex-cleric.
Other spells can mask the alignment, so would work vs the detect alignment spells. Undetectable Alignment works to fool paladins and is widely available. Both paladins and antipaladins get access as do most divine casters, alchemists, bards, investigators, mesmerists, and psychics. It will work vs see alignment, but if the character using see alignment uses it 9 times it will be apparent that something is going on. A sentient character with no alignment is going to be suspicious.