Every noble or rich person should be a wizard...


Advice

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Or another kind of spell caster.

Magic gives such a significant advantage over (non adventuring) non spellcasters. I don't mean in combat but in every day life.

Divination especially. Want to find out what's the best thing to invest in for the next year? Divination. Want to know how best to organize your troops? Divination. Want to learn what other nations are doing that might affect yours? Divination.

Then there's Enchantment/Charm magic. Want to improve your negotiations? Either charm them directly or boost your own speechcraft with Enchantment.

And of course, there's the protective aspect. Want to defend against anothers Divinations or Charms or whatever? Abjuration.

Since magic in Golarion has been around since literally the beginning of time, magic use should be well established in the societal/cultural structure of every intelligent nation.

And why Wizards you ask? Because anyone can become a Wizard with training. You need the right bloodline to be a Sorcerer. You need true faith and the acceptance of a god to be a Cleric or Druid.

But a Wizard only needs training. Who can afford that training? The upper classes. Every single noble family, merchant clan or similar group with sense would shell out whatever's needed to train their kids with at least the basics of magic use. Even if it's only to enable them to defend themselves against others.

Thoughts?


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If every rich person in the real world were well-educated... you'd be onto something.


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Casting spells requires the talent to do so and takes real effort. It also takes expensive schooling. Not everyone is able or willing to do it.

In real life everyone should be a lawyer and a doctor as both can have powerful impacts on your life. Most people are not either though.


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Hastur! Hastur! Hastur! wrote:

Casting spells requires the talent to do so and takes real effort. It also takes expensive schooling. Not everyone is able or willing to do it.

In real life everyone should be a lawyer and a doctor as both can have powerful impacts on your life. Most people are not either though.

They don't have nearly as powerful effects on your life as magic, especially if you're already rich and and powerful, they don't affect you much.


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citricking wrote:
Hastur! Hastur! Hastur! wrote:

Casting spells requires the talent to do so and takes real effort. It also takes expensive schooling. Not everyone is able or willing to do it.

In real life everyone should be a lawyer and a doctor as both can have powerful impacts on your life. Most people are not either though.

They don't have nearly as powerful effects on your life as magic, especially if you're already rich and and powerful, they don't affect you much.

Of course they do. In fact more so if you are rich and powerful. Who do you think pays all those high priced lawyers.

The fact is, it is much easier to pay a guy who did all the schooling and learning than it is to do all that yourself.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

- Not everyone can become a wizard with training. The PC rules allow it because it'd be pretty sucky to be rolling percentile dice at character creation for whether you can do arcane magic. NPCs don't have that advantage- some of them simply can't become wizards. And even for those that can, there can be complications. There's one nobleman character in the novels that had to quit wizardry after he discovered that having prepared spells made him increasingly nauseous, and actually casting them was enough to make him vomit.

- It's non-trivial training. You can't always ship your young nobles off for years of training. One of the most prestigious academies of the Inner Sea Region requires ten years, and the first three have a 20% fatality rate. All that cuts into time spent being an effective noble.

(Plus: divination spells generally can't look very far into the future ever since Aroden's death, and you have to be really good to get your charm spells to work reliably.)

Obviously, plenty of nobles still do it. That's what third-in-lines are for, after all.


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Hastur! Hastur! Hastur! wrote:

Casting spells requires the talent to do so and takes real effort. It also takes expensive schooling. Not everyone is able or willing to do it.

In real life everyone should be a lawyer and a doctor as both can have powerful impacts on your life. Most people are not either though.

The top 1% of our world (our 'nobility' so to speak) are almost exclusively business people and politicians. Some are also lawyers but few are doctors.

Their children are also almost all trained in business, law and politics so as to take over from their parents. And they are sent to the most expensive, exclusive schools in the world.

Replace 'business, law and politics' with 'arcane magic/wizardry' and there you go.

Although, tbf children of nobility (and rich merchants) would also get training in business, law and politics anyway. The magic would be yet another tool to maintain/increase their wealth, power and influence.

And there is no mention of needing 'talent' to become a wizard anywhere that I can find. Just time, money and education. All of which the upper classes have in abundance.


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NPCs can't just have PC classes because they want them. PCs get PC classes because they have exceptional potential.

A PC can say "I'm a monk and I studied at the houses of perfection" whereas anybody else sees the challenges required to gain admittance to be insurmountable. There are NPCs who want to do this, but cannot.


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Natan Linggod 327 wrote:


And there is no mention of needing 'talent' to become a wizard anywhere that I can find. Just time, money and education. All of which the upper classes have in abundance.

There is no mention of it because as a PC if you want to become a wizard you become a wizard. Obviously it takes a talent to do it. Do you honestly think if tomorrow medical school or law school was made free that everyone would be Doctors or lawyers? No way. A lot of people would go to school for it and while we would get some great doctors or lawyers out of it, we would end up with many more drop-outs or bad doctors and lawyers. There is no "talent" for either profession but it takes a combination of traits that not everyone possesses.


Hastur! Hastur! Hastur! wrote:
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:


And there is no mention of needing 'talent' to become a wizard anywhere that I can find. Just time, money and education. All of which the upper classes have in abundance.

There is no mention of it because as a PC if you want to become a wizard you become a wizard. Obviously it takes a talent to do it. Do you honestly think if tomorrow medical school or law school was made free that everyone would be Doctors or lawyers? No way. A lot of people would go to school for it and while we would get some great doctors or lawyers out of it, we would end up with many more drop-outs or bad doctors and lawyers. There is no "talent" for either profession but it takes a combination of traits that not everyone possesses.

Back in PF1 this would be a lot of people getting 1 level of doctor(Wizard), then getting the rest of their levels in something else.

And we aren't talking about the average Joe-in-the-street here, but people with the resources to ensure even the least talented of their brood gets an excellent education.

Also, let's say that Wizardry talent is something that's 'inborn' like a Sorcerer. Wouldn't the upperclasses marry with that in mind? After all, political and economic marriages are much more common among them than among the lower classes. Adding in the requirement for marriage being a history of magic talent seems like a no brainer to me.

And remember that magic isn't something new. It's been around since day dot so a lot of the older family lines would already have been marrying for magic talent for centuries.

In fact, given how important magic would realistically be in a world where it actually works, I would expect that NOT having magic talent would be more of a rarity among the upper classes rather than otherwise.


Btw, thank you to everyone replying!

I'm thoroughly enjoying reading everyones point of views!


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This is actually starting to point out why class (im)balance made a ton of sense, and "fixing" it doesn't make much sense at all.

Anyone (literally anyone) can become a "Fighter." PC, NPC, doesn't matter. It's an open book for anyone who can pick up a weapon.
But look at how much defense is being given to Mages needing to be extra before they can even start?
Yet, in outcomes, they should be similar?

None of it adds up. The only reasonable stance I can see is if outcomes should be similar, then entry level requirements should also be similar.
If you can find a mentor to teach you magic and you aren't an idiot (ie: have the requisite Int score necessary to cast spells), then wizardry can easily be in your future; just as if you can find a trainer and have the strength or agility necessary (the requisite Str/Dex to wield gear and not suck at hitting things) then a career as a warrior can easily be in your future.

Does this mean anyone can or should be able to do magic? Of course not, there's plenty of idiots (low Int people) in the world. But should it be especially exclusive or hard? Not at all.


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Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
Hastur! Hastur! Hastur! wrote:
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:


And there is no mention of needing 'talent' to become a wizard anywhere that I can find. Just time, money and education. All of which the upper classes have in abundance.

There is no mention of it because as a PC if you want to become a wizard you become a wizard. Obviously it takes a talent to do it. Do you honestly think if tomorrow medical school or law school was made free that everyone would be Doctors or lawyers? No way. A lot of people would go to school for it and while we would get some great doctors or lawyers out of it, we would end up with many more drop-outs or bad doctors and lawyers. There is no "talent" for either profession but it takes a combination of traits that not everyone possesses.

Back in PF1 this would be a lot of people getting 1 level of doctor(Wizard), then getting the rest of their levels in something else.

And we aren't talking about the average Joe-in-the-street here, but people with the resources to ensure even the least talented of their brood gets an excellent education.

Also, let's say that Wizardry talent is something that's 'inborn' like a Sorcerer. Wouldn't the upperclasses marry with that in mind? After all, political and economic marriages are much more common among them than among the lower classes. Adding in the requirement for marriage being a history of magic talent seems like a no brainer to me.

And remember that magic isn't something new. It's been around since day dot so a lot of the older family lines would already have been marrying for magic talent for centuries.

In fact, given how important magic would realistically be in a world where it actually works, I would expect that NOT having magic talent would be more of a rarity among the upper classes rather than otherwise.

Oh I agree that every noble house and well off merchant would want to have a wizard in the family. And again using the real world as an example many rich families do have kids that are lawyers or doctors. High powered families would have to keep magic in mind all the time. I think it would be more along the lines of every kid would be trained in the Arcane skill. Even if you have no talent for magic you could have a thorough understanding of how it worked.

Of course if the OP was asking if making a world were every noble was a wizard would work. Then absolutely it could work. I would probably give everyone the adapted cantrip feat even if they are not casters for free at first level. Then have every noble take the wizard dedication at 2nd level.


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While not the Lost Omens campaign setting, the Nasuverse of Japanese creator brand TYPE-MOON has their magical population behave roughly like the OP's description. So it does feel plausible, in a way.


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Neo2151 wrote:

This is actually starting to point out why class (im)balance made a ton of sense, and "fixing" it doesn't make much sense at all.

Anyone (literally anyone) can become a "Fighter." PC, NPC, doesn't matter. It's an open book for anyone who can pick up a weapon.
But look at how much defense is being given to Mages needing to be extra before they can even start?
Yet, in outcomes, they should be similar?

Not everyone can be a "fighter". A "fighter" is not just any old joe who picks up a sword. A "fighter" is a hero on the path to matching the likes of Achilles, Cu Chulainn, Jason, or Bellerophon. An NPC can train for combat, but that doesn't mean they're going to match a player character, no matter how hard they try.

Lucas Yew wrote:
While not the Lost Omens campaign setting, the Nasuverse of Japanese creator brand TYPE-MOON has their magical population behave roughly like the OP's description. So it does feel plausible, in a way.

That's because in that universe, magical power is specifically engineered to be passed down from parent to child, with each heir adding to and expanding it. In D&D terms, imagine that Wizards learned how to make people into Sorcerers, but it takes so much work that it requires centuries and many generations to cultivate magical power that reaches higher-tier spells.


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Strill wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

This is actually starting to point out why class (im)balance made a ton of sense, and "fixing" it doesn't make much sense at all.

Anyone (literally anyone) can become a "Fighter." PC, NPC, doesn't matter. It's an open book for anyone who can pick up a weapon.
But look at how much defense is being given to Mages needing to be extra before they can even start?
Yet, in outcomes, they should be similar?

Not everyone can be a "fighter". A "fighter" is not just any old joe who picks up a sword. A "fighter" is a hero on the path to matching the likes of Achilles, Cu Chulainn, Jason, or Bellerophon. An NPC can train for combat, but that doesn't mean they're going to match a player character, no matter how hard they try.

Eeh, hard disagree.

The Fighter will never match up to those legendary folks because a) the mechanics don't support the kind of feats they are capable of, and/or b) because they became what they were through being much much more than just a Fighter (divine blood, magic, etc.)


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Harry Potter also has a similar feel with the muggle/wizard separation and costs of schooling. Although not sure whether they are nobility or upper class.

There are some novels that also have it so nobles have a small library with at least 1 book of magic. This would certainly allow most nobles to give training in Arcana, with some (with a more complete collection) getting a decent chance of having at least 1 kid with enough talent and dedication to be a full Wizard.


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Neo2151 wrote:
Strill wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

This is actually starting to point out why class (im)balance made a ton of sense, and "fixing" it doesn't make much sense at all.

Anyone (literally anyone) can become a "Fighter." PC, NPC, doesn't matter. It's an open book for anyone who can pick up a weapon.
But look at how much defense is being given to Mages needing to be extra before they can even start?
Yet, in outcomes, they should be similar?

Not everyone can be a "fighter". A "fighter" is not just any old joe who picks up a sword. A "fighter" is a hero on the path to matching the likes of Achilles, Cu Chulainn, Jason, or Bellerophon. An NPC can train for combat, but that doesn't mean they're going to match a player character, no matter how hard they try.

Eeh, hard disagree.

The Fighter will never match up to those legendary folks because a) the mechanics don't support the kind of feats they are capable of, and/or b) because they became what they were through being much much more than just a Fighter (divine blood, magic, etc.)

That's exactly the sort of thing HP was originally conceived to represent.

“It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage – as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the “sixth sense” which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection.”

-Gary Gygax, D&D 1st edition DM's guide


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Fighters are very much capable of godly feats in pf2. I mean three of the characters who actually became gods were martials.

A high level fighter just moves with such alacrity in their art they a permanently faster. And a fighter could strike an infinite horde of enemies as they ran past him.


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Temperans wrote:
Harry Potter also has a similar feel with the muggle/wizard separation and costs of schooling.

I'd argue that every "Wizard" in HP is actually a Sorcerer, since you're either born with it (Wizard) or you can't ever do it period (Muggle).


Hastur! Hastur! Hastur! wrote:


Oh I agree that every noble house and well off merchant would want to have a wizard in the family. And again using the real world as an example...

Oho! I like that idea. I'm yoinking that for my games now.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Neo2151 wrote:
Strill wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

This is actually starting to point out why class (im)balance made a ton of sense, and "fixing" it doesn't make much sense at all.

Anyone (literally anyone) can become a "Fighter." PC, NPC, doesn't matter. It's an open book for anyone who can pick up a weapon.
But look at how much defense is being given to Mages needing to be extra before they can even start?
Yet, in outcomes, they should be similar?

Not everyone can be a "fighter". A "fighter" is not just any old joe who picks up a sword. A "fighter" is a hero on the path to matching the likes of Achilles, Cu Chulainn, Jason, or Bellerophon. An NPC can train for combat, but that doesn't mean they're going to match a player character, no matter how hard they try.

Eeh, hard disagree.

The Fighter will never match up to those legendary folks because a) the mechanics don't support the kind of feats they are capable of, and/or b) because they became what they were through being much much more than just a Fighter (divine blood, magic, etc.)

Just look what a 10th level or higher fighter (and all PCs) can actually do by the rules (and of course with skill feats, as skills are part of class progression, NPC Warriors even at Lv.10 won't have titan wrestler or cat's fall). A 10th level fighter is literally capable of out wrestling multi-ton dinosaurs, falling 50 feet without a scratch, survive 100 days without food, and slap magic laser beams back at people with there shield.


Martials =/= Fighter. Rangers, Paladins, Monks, and Barbarian have always had an easier time getting high power abilities because their themes are very specific. And half the awesome abilities are Skill feats, which means a Rogue is a better candidate for legendary feats.

**************
Also since when can Fighters AoO infinite times? Or do you mean he won't die to a bunch of 1st lv mooks? Because if it's the latter, even a wizard with how bad they seem would probably be okay (because of level to everything); the former is broken and should be nerfed (or buff everyone else).

Liberty's Edge

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Becoming a Wizard is the equivalent of an advanced degree in a hard science. Specifically, a difficult one like Physics. Per the PF1 starting age stuff, it's probably around PhD equivalent.

Not every Noble has the capability or desire to spend 8 years learning solely how to do Wizard magic and little else (note: Wizards actually have less Skills than anyone else, due to this monofocus).

On top of that, business, politics, and law are every bit as essential to the nobility as they are to the 1% in the real world, maybe more so. So they'd need to learn all that on top of the 8 years of Wizard schooling.

That legitimately doesn't sound sustainable at all. And, as you note, most other spellcasting Classes can't readily be taught.


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Also what rich person wants to spend that much time around bat guano.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Or another kind of spell caster.

Magic gives such a significant advantage over (non adventuring) non spellcasters. I don't mean in combat but in every day life.

Divination especially. Want to find out what's the best thing to invest in for the next year? Divination. Want to know how best to organize your troops? Divination. Want to learn what other nations are doing that might affect yours? Divination.

Then there's Enchantment/Charm magic. Want to improve your negotiations? Either charm them directly or boost your own speechcraft with Enchantment.

And of course, there's the protective aspect. Want to defend against anothers Divinations or Charms or whatever? Abjuration.

Since magic in Golarion has been around since literally the beginning of time, magic use should be well established in the societal/cultural structure of every intelligent nation.

And why Wizards you ask? Because anyone can become a Wizard with training. You need the right bloodline to be a Sorcerer. You need true faith and the acceptance of a god to be a Cleric or Druid.

But a Wizard only needs training. Who can afford that training? The upper classes. Every single noble family, merchant clan or similar group with sense would shell out whatever's needed to train their kids with at least the basics of magic use. Even if it's only to enable them to defend themselves against others.

Thoughts?

why be a wizard when you can just hire one?


Bandw2 wrote:
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Or another kind of spell caster.

Magic gives such a significant advantage over (non adventuring) non spellcasters. I don't mean in combat but in every day life.

Divination especially. Want to find out what's the best thing to invest in for the next year? Divination. Want to know how best to organize your troops? Divination. Want to learn what other nations are doing that might affect yours? Divination.

Then there's Enchantment/Charm magic. Want to improve your negotiations? Either charm them directly or boost your own speechcraft with Enchantment.

And of course, there's the protective aspect. Want to defend against anothers Divinations or Charms or whatever? Abjuration.

Since magic in Golarion has been around since literally the beginning of time, magic use should be well established in the societal/cultural structure of every intelligent nation.

And why Wizards you ask? Because anyone can become a Wizard with training. You need the right bloodline to be a Sorcerer. You need true faith and the acceptance of a god to be a Cleric or Druid.

But a Wizard only needs training. Who can afford that training? The upper classes. Every single noble family, merchant clan or similar group with sense would shell out whatever's needed to train their kids with at least the basics of magic use. Even if it's only to enable them to defend themselves against others.

Thoughts?

why be a wizard when you can just hire one?

Because they're incredibly expensive. To learn a single new spell, they require as much money as all the servants' yearly salaries combined, and to advance their studies, they require priceless ancient relics which are located in long-forgotten ruins in the middle of Orc territory.

There's also the fact that they could be cursing you, or making you into their mind-slave, and you wouldn't even know it.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Temperans wrote:


Also since when can Fighters AoO infinite times? Or do you mean he won't die to a bunch of 1st lv mooks? Because if it's the latter, even a wizard with how bad they seem would probably be okay (because of level to everything); the former is broken and should be nerfed (or buff everyone else).

Capstone feat gives them a reaction per enemy.


Strill wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
why be a wizard when you can just hire one?

Because they're incredibly expensive. To learn a single new spell, they require as much money as all the servants' yearly salaries combined, and to advance their studies, they require priceless ancient relics which are located in long-forgotten ruins in the middle of Orc territory.

There's also the fact that they could be cursing you, or making you into their mind-slave, and you wouldn't even know it.

Firstly the noble is generally paying for a spell the wizard already knows likely as a one off. And probably a well respected member of a local wizard training academy. If they have the wizard on retainer, the wizard is likely improving themselves on their own dime - in most cases the nobles won’t care past a certain competency, unless they hired the wizard to do something nobody knows how to do, but that seems to me like it would be a rarer occurrence.

The costs you refer to also apply to being a wizard, but then the noble has to also pay in their own time and effort, rather than just money.

How do you when hiring a lawyer, doctor, choosing a bank, insurance or other service know the person is going to be value for money and not a cheat?

As for the charming problem, why wait to be hired? ... but in a functioning society there are likely checks and balances against such things happening, including other wizards, the priesthood, and other sources of magical power.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Strill wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Or another kind of spell caster.

Magic gives such a significant advantage over (non adventuring) non spellcasters. I don't mean in combat but in every day life.

Divination especially. Want to find out what's the best thing to invest in for the next year? Divination. Want to know how best to organize your troops? Divination. Want to learn what other nations are doing that might affect yours? Divination.

Then there's Enchantment/Charm magic. Want to improve your negotiations? Either charm them directly or boost your own speechcraft with Enchantment.

And of course, there's the protective aspect. Want to defend against anothers Divinations or Charms or whatever? Abjuration.

Since magic in Golarion has been around since literally the beginning of time, magic use should be well established in the societal/cultural structure of every intelligent nation.

And why Wizards you ask? Because anyone can become a Wizard with training. You need the right bloodline to be a Sorcerer. You need true faith and the acceptance of a god to be a Cleric or Druid.

But a Wizard only needs training. Who can afford that training? The upper classes. Every single noble family, merchant clan or similar group with sense would shell out whatever's needed to train their kids with at least the basics of magic use. Even if it's only to enable them to defend themselves against others.

Thoughts?

why be a wizard when you can just hire one?

Because they're incredibly expensive. To learn a single new spell, they require as much money as all the servants' yearly salaries combined, and to advance their studies, they require priceless ancient relics which are located in long-forgotten ruins in the middle of Orc territory.

There's also the fact that they could be cursing you, or making you into their mind-slave, and you wouldn't even know it.

and what do you know, it's just as expensive to be one, except you're also down 8 years focusing on magic.


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Natan Linggod 327 wrote:

Also, let's say that Wizardry talent is something that's 'inborn' like a Sorcerer. Wouldn't the upperclasses marry with that in mind? After all, political and economic marriages are much more common among them than among the lower classes. Adding in the requirement for marriage being a history of magic talent seems like a no brainer to me.

And remember that magic isn't something new. It's been around since day dot so a lot of the older family lines would already have been marrying for magic talent for centuries.

In fact, given how important magic would realistically be in a world where it actually works, I would expect that NOT having magic talent would be more of a rarity among the upper classes rather than otherwise.

I’ve played a homebrew campaign that used this premise. It worked, and added a different dynamic in which half the PCs were either nobles or adopted into the nobility. Then we hit the ‘creepy nuns organising a breeding programme’ plot, and started thinking about that aspect of the setting.

Getting back to PF I always assumed that there is a specific ‘gift’ that is needed to learn magic, but all PCs have it by default. Otherwise you veer into weird pseudo-industrialised magic worlds, and that’s not the way the setting has been written.


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QuidEst wrote:
- It's non-trivial training. You can't always ship your young nobles off for years of training. One of the most prestigious academies of the Inner Sea Region requires ten years, and the first three have a 20% fatality rate. All that cuts into time spent being an effective noble.

Silly QuidESt, that is what having multiple offspring is for. You produce one heir to inherit the title, family business or whatever, and then go with the age-old formula of Wizard, Warrior, Priest.

Wizard because divination, as has been discussed. Warrior to be a general for your army, or at least the man-at-arms for your castle, or maybe just the head of security for your business. After that, eh, send the third son off to a cloister to make himself useful. Remember that they are going to be affiliated with some divine power of sorts, so no longer solely loyal to the family alone. But if they make a career in the church, it is still useful to have a 'man inside'.

Daughters are for marrying off. Although there could be some mixing and matching in more egalitarian societies of course.

Dark Archive

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Neo2151 wrote:

This is actually starting to point out why class (im)balance made a ton of sense, and "fixing" it doesn't make much sense at all.

Anyone (literally anyone) can become a "Fighter." PC, NPC, doesn't matter. It's an open book for anyone who can pick up a weapon.
But look at how much defense is being given to Mages needing to be extra before they can even start?
Yet, in outcomes, they should be similar?

None of it adds up. The only reasonable stance I can see is if outcomes should be similar, then entry level requirements should also be similar.
If you can find a mentor to teach you magic and you aren't an idiot (ie: have the requisite Int score necessary to cast spells), then wizardry can easily be in your future; just as if you can find a trainer and have the strength or agility necessary (the requisite Str/Dex to wield gear and not suck at hitting things) then a career as a warrior can easily be in your future.

Does this mean anyone can or should be able to do magic? Of course not, there's plenty of idiots (low Int people) in the world. But should it be especially exclusive or hard? Not at all.

I think the same rules apply (or should apply to martials). No one just becomes good at fighting against all manner of beast; it requires training, especially since every creatures moves and reacts differently. To have the competence to battle against all manner of foe with equal proficiency requires some type of special training. In addition, while tropes exist of magic users have spent long within tomes to master their spells, their are tropes of spending years as someone’s squire or ward to learn proper weapon skills. Likewise, there are hundreds and thousands of stories where martials are just as strong if not more so than casters. This is why and casters should be given the same power level.

As for why every noble should have a wizard, I think that is looking at the point too narrowly: all noble families should have a variety of powers to call upon with wizards, fighters, assassins, and mystical entertainment to really stay in power.


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Speaking of creepy nuns and a breeding programme, I've always kind of thought of this like the people with extraordinary abilities in Dune, specifically how the noble class uses and employs these people with extraordinary abilities. Most nobility just hires Bene Gesserit or Mentats, partly because it's rare or even impossible for an individual to become one in the first place, but also because then the nobles can spend their time practicing statecraft and not getting stabbed or poisoned

I think most nobility would just hire a wizard, pay them well, and retain their services rather than ship off all of their progeny to go waste away for 8 years in an academy or under a wizard's tutelage (if they don't die). That's time they could have spent palling around with other nobility, getting in tight with people who could advance the family's interest, "networking."

If we accept that an average human has 10's across the board in their stats, how many people actually have the Int modifier to get into and finish at a magical academy? How many people with a good score actually want to sit through all of the lessons, write all of the papers on proper inflections for the light cantrip depending on the prevailing leyline forces, clean up familiar poop, get hazed by bored students in the transmutation college, do everything but actual practical magic? How many of the nobility would subject themselves to being bored to tears for years rather than just throw money at someone who did that already?

Being a wizard is like being a fantasy academic. It's probably very nitpicky stuff, with a majority of the focus of wizard colleges being on improving the art rather than blasting holes in things. It's boring to everyone but you. Most of the time a wizard's not blowing holes in things but rather pondering the nuances of why it was a hole and not a square, or arguing that--in fact--a hole wasn't blown in the thing at all, but instead the spell simply transported the the matter elsewhere which created the explosion, yadda yadda...


Wasn't it stated in one of the 1e players companions that most nobles have a court wizard? Sort of like all the Jarls having a court wizard in skyrim.

Even if i'm misremembering, It would make more sense than every noble spending 4-8 years becoming a full fledged wizard. If one of the nobles' brats has the aptitude and the interest, then sure, they probably apprentice to the court wizard for a while. But having the aptitude and the interest is important.

Also, I think a noble would be just as likely to be a bard as a wizard in 2e, if not more so.


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You can run your fantasy world however you want in regards to magic without there being a right or a wrong way for how it fits in with the world's society.

How you run things is not wrong if it's fun, and neither is anyone else's, so there's no point to proving your way is "right."


If not for the 'entertainer' aspect, a Bard works fantastically. Enough skills to cover a nobles education, some martial/military training, diplomatic skill and the magic needed to at least protect themself against other casters.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
If not for the 'entertainer' aspect, a Bard works fantastically. Enough skills to cover a nobles education, some martial/military training, diplomatic skill and the magic needed to at least protect themself against other casters.

What entertainer aspect?


Hastur! Hastur! Hastur! wrote:
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:


And there is no mention of needing 'talent' to become a wizard anywhere that I can find. Just time, money and education. All of which the upper classes have in abundance.

There is no mention of it because as a PC if you want to become a wizard you become a wizard. Obviously it takes a talent to do it. Do you honestly think if tomorrow medical school or law school was made free that everyone would be Doctors or lawyers? No way. A lot of people would go to school for it and while we would get some great doctors or lawyers out of it, we would end up with many more drop-outs or bad doctors and lawyers. There is no "talent" for either profession but it takes a combination of traits that not everyone possesses.

This comparison of wizards with lawyers and doctors is terrible. Let's take Lawyer off the table because those skills often don't even carry abroad. The skills of a doctor on the other hand are universally useful for a career in real life but even your example revolves around the idea of a doctorate, not the skills.

I person could hypothetically have all the skills and knowledge of a doctor but not have gone through the proper educational venues to get that on paper and will not be allowed to practice without going through those hoops, yes a high degree of medical knowledge could occasionally be handy in real life it's a specific career most aim for. A person who has even some degree of magical training can f#%@ing alter reality and you don't need much of an imagination to think up uses for magic.

If someone had the ability to be a wizard they would become one, the obvious value of those skills should be unquestionable.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
If not for the 'entertainer' aspect, a Bard works fantastically. Enough skills to cover a nobles education, some martial/military training, diplomatic skill and the magic needed to at least protect themself against other casters.

Bards have a bit more of an occult bent to them now, and it's easier to focus on other aspects. Use Perform for oratory, and take the Enigma muse for Bardic Knowledge. Then they can encourage troops or guards in combat (Inspire Courage), countermand Suggestion spells (Counter Performance), attack effectively in an emergency or a duel (True Strike), and are generally knowledgeable about a great deal (Bardic Knowledge).


Even if we agree on the fact that everyone can become a wizard with enough training... level 1 spells won't change their life much.
And I don't think that you can gain wizard levels with just more training.


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Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
If not for the 'entertainer' aspect, a Bard works fantastically. Enough skills to cover a nobles education, some martial/military training, diplomatic skill and the magic needed to at least protect themself against other casters.

Being well-versed in fine arts is a trait associated with the wealthy upper class generally. The entertainer stuff fits fine IMO.


It's already been decided that the story is about the exceptional individuals who rose above Fate telling them what to do.
The novels aren't about farmers who farm until they die. They're about the farmer who took up arms against the evil tyrant threatening his village, and ended up starting a revolution.
Merlin and Gandalf and similar characters. The regular townsfolk are in awe of them. A wizard is a legend. Parents tell bedtime stories about them. It's not as simple as a noble going to go hire a "random" wizard to make his investments for him. A wizard has other things on his agenda.


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If all the nobles are sending their kids to become Wizards, why couldn't they just socialize while attending Wizard school? I mean look at Hogwarts a lot of their time was spent talking and socializing even between houses. It would partly explain why the death rate is 20%, as I'm sure a lot of the ignorant nobles would decide to spend more time talking than actually reading the requisite material (leading to many unfortunate events).

Also 8 years of training is not really that much unless you view Wizard training as being stuck in a library just reading and occasionally casting a cantrip.


QuidEst wrote:
Bards have a bit more of an occult bent to them now, and it's easier to focus on other aspects. Use Perform for oratory, and take the Enigma muse for Bardic Knowledge. Then they can encourage troops or guards in combat (Inspire Courage), countermand Suggestion spells (Counter Performance), attack effectively in an emergency or a duel (True Strike), and are generally knowledgeable about a great deal (Bardic Knowledge).

I feel like Bards are a great example of how not everyone has it in them to be a PC class. Since a whole lot of people are going to devote themselves to art or learn an instrument, and get really good at it. Of those people, scant few are actually going to discover that they can do actual magic this way.


Rich people don't need to bother with the extensive training that becoming a wizard would require, they just hire spell casters or buy magic items.

Also, not anyone can become a wizard, fighter, rogue, etc.. Anyone with the money can *try* to become one, but they might just end up with longsword proficiency, the charming liar skill feat, or the ability to use the detect magic cantrip, before becoming distracted/frustrated, and ending their training


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I would point you at the Divine Dungeon series. Everyone is a mage to some level in the series. The more you practice, the stronger you get, and if you rise high enough you can shrug off getting hit with a mountain.

The nobles literally are the most powerful mages, keeping their advanced cultivation techniques (the meditation rituals to gather and refine power) as family secrets.

Which, as interesting as that is, it means that "the best fighter" in the world is actually "a mage who decided to punch you than use magic." But it worked for that setting.


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Yes, the rich and intelligent could learn wizardry.

Are they likely to become adventurers? I don't think so.

So, wouldn't they all be really low-level wizards?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Bards have a bit more of an occult bent to them now, and it's easier to focus on other aspects. Use Perform for oratory, and take the Enigma muse for Bardic Knowledge. Then they can encourage troops or guards in combat (Inspire Courage), countermand Suggestion spells (Counter Performance), attack effectively in an emergency or a duel (True Strike), and are generally knowledgeable about a great deal (Bardic Knowledge).
I feel like Bards are a great example of how not everyone has it in them to be a PC class. Since a whole lot of people are going to devote themselves to art or learn an instrument, and get really good at it. Of those people, scant few are actually going to discover that they can do actual magic this way.

I feel like it is harder to become a PF2 bard than a PF1 bard. Now, they have this 'muse' system that could be seen as the root of their abilities. They seem like a new system of oracles as a result.

Before, I felt like bards were a mishmash of trades put cobbled together to make something useful. They learned a bit of swordplay from the guard on a caravan. They learned a bit of spell casting from a mage- and they had to cheat at it by ALWAYS needing verbal components (like they were using a mnemonic to remember planets in the solar system). They also learned some basic healing from a cleric to patch up basic wounds. All the while, they made sure to grab a few useful skills to get around in society (and to politely ask/trick others into teaching them their abilities above).

If we looked at it in that light, then bard would be a fantastic discipline for a noble- it has the all around education of a Renaissance man.


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The fact that there there is no magic in the real world (that was a sad statement) makes comparing mage/wizard status to a real-world profession completely subjective.

I could just as easily argue that being a wizard is more like being an illustrator: requires a lot of intelligence and training (both to make successful work as well as navigating the freelance business world), but very few are "powerful" enough to be rich and famous.

Or, if you prefer, a wizard is like a physicist, who while probably making a good living don't exactly populate the powerful elite of the world.

You can go on and on. No real world frame of reference means no concrete real-world analogy.

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