Muzouka |
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So I made a half-elf Rogue(Scoundrel) with Otherworldy Magic(Ray of Frost) because he is supposed to be a snowborn who takes after his snowcaster parent. Is my Rogue trained in Spell Attack and which stat does he use for casting? Dex, Int or Cha? He's just going to be a dabbler so I'm thinking of taking Minor Magic, Trick Item and Magical trickster.
His stats:
STR 12
CON 12
WIS 10
DEX 18
INT 10
CHA 16
Trained in Arcana
For now I don't want to take Sorceror Dedication.
And how do I Heighten Ray of Frost?
Castilliano |
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If you're away from this forum, look up Innate Spells, it has this data.
To begin, it'd be Charisma (which it'll remain) & Trained (which will change to match your highest casting proficiency elsewhere, which I think would be at 12th at earliest).
It's trained because it's innate, and I don't recall if it includes the whole Tradition or not.
A Dedication is better than Minor Magic (unless there's a non-caster MCD you prefer later). You can get a skill or two on top of the two Cantrips.
Not sure why you aren't a Thief for the Dex damage.
+4 damage is a huge difference, on par with some high level bonuses (and Dex to damage is the be-all-end-all for Dex warriors).
It would also free up that stat to go to Wis, which you'll need/want more than that extra 1 Bulk.
Ray of Frost makes a good first round poke while some might be flat-footed (and without putting yourself at too much risk as y'all assess the enemy).
But it's more than difficult to set up a ranged sneak every round.
That said, I don't think getting Sneak Attack w/ a Cantrip is worth a feat. Not with all the other options to vie against.
That advice is for you solo (or in a random PFS session). In some parties, there are other PCs regularly giving out the flat-footed condition. There it'd be useful.
Wheldrake |
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That's a good choice, stick by it. Some folks will tell you it isn't "optimal" or even "viable", but don't listen to them.
The text for the feat tells exactly how it is heightened.
A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up.
Edge93 |
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That's a good choice, stick by it. Some folks will tell you it isn't "optimal" or even "viable", but don't listen to them.
The text for the feat tells exactly how it is heightened.
CRB, p40 wrote:A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up.
+1 to this. People get blinded by oh, you don't have Dex to damage but the other rackets are nice stuff.
Also I do wish Minor Magic had built in proficiency advancement, I feel like that's a bit of an insight as it really falls off.
Maybe innate spells could use your Class DC Proficiency if you don't have a higher casting proficiency? That seems reasonable to me and likely what I would go with.
Muzouka |
Is it correct that my Spell attack bonus at level 1 is +6?
Charisma= +3
Trained= +2
Level= +1
Are the spells granted by Minor Magic Innate?
If I attack with my rapier then cast Ray of Frost does Ray of Frost suffer from the second attack penalty?
My build will be using feint, intimidate and deception more than backstabbing.
Malk_Content |
Is it correct that my Spell attack bonus at level 1 is +6?
Charisma= +3
Trained= +2
Level= +1Are the spells granted by Minor Magic Innate?
If I attack with my rapier then cast Ray of Frost does Ray of Frost suffer from the second attack penalty?
My build will be using feint, intimidate and deception more than backstabbing.
That looks correct. Unless otherwise specified I believe spells are innate.
Yup, anything with the ATTACK trait suffers from and generates Multiple Attack Penalty.
If your build is more social focus you might want to start 18 in Cha over Dex. This will also buff your spells.
Kalderaan |
Muzouka, I was thinking of a very similar build. Nice to see others think similarly.
As another mentioned, setting up ranged sneak attacks is a challenge in and of itself.
Feint and scoundrel certainly does offer the most consistent method of setting up sneak attacks for you AND the party each round, IMHO. Mass buff and sneak attack setup for a single feint is pretty good. Melee also affords flanking as well, which ranged doesn't.
The only issue I have with melee is that it is melee. :p
swoosh |
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I'd strongly suggest you take a look at Sorcerer Dedication instead of Minor Magic, for one it's strictly a superior feat as it gives you two skills on top of cantrips, plus it allows you to eventually progress your spellcasting proficiency to Master.
Being stuck at Trained is going to severely impact your ability to reliably hit enemies with your spells as the game progresses.
Minor Magic is for rogues who don't want to cast spells but still want to pick up a couple magical tricks. If you want to make Ray of Frost a meaningful part of your build it's not going to be enough as you level up.
Wheldrake |
Of course, you can always retrain your minor magic feat later on, if you decide to take sorcerer dedication. It *is* strictly better, since you get not one but two cantrips and two skills, all from one feat. Plus access tospellcasting items you didn't have before.
Squiggit |
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Does the cantrip granted by Otherworldly Magic get heightend even if you don't have a spellcasting class?
Cantrips auto heighten as a matter of course, it's just how they function.
What you lose out without a spellcasting class is the proficiency, which makes it hard to utilize spells that require attack rolls or give saves.
Debelinho |
if you have cha at least 14, taking sorcerer dedication is much better than taking minor magic....you get extra skills if nothing else
and later you get an option to take basic and advanced magic(advanced magic gets you expert prof in magic attacks and DCs, even for your innate spells)
also, if you take magic sneak attack feat, consider making CHA your main stat....better feints, social skills and better spell attacks...casting non-attack cantrips(lake daze or electric arc or chill touch), doesn't raise your MAP, so combining it with your strike is strong, because both work on full bonus/DC, although you can't sneak attack with those spells...
Cheers!
Doompatrol |
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That's a good choice, stick by it. Some folks will tell you it isn't "optimal" or even "viable", but don't listen to them.
The text for the feat tells exactly how it is heightened.
CRB, p40 wrote:A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up.
That's a very poor choice. Scoundrel is a weak archetype and defending bad choices just for the sake of defending them doesn't change that.
Other archetypes are less mad, better features, much better feats at 10th and what's really funny is later in the game you can get a rogue feat which does what feint does but you don't even need to roll invalidating scoundrel.
Both their and ruffian have an easier time bumping charisma than the archetype for charisma because ruffian doesn't need to bump dex for ac and thief doesn't need strength for damage.
The-Magic-Sword |
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Wheldrake wrote:That's a good choice, stick by it. Some folks will tell you it isn't "optimal" or even "viable", but don't listen to them.
The text for the feat tells exactly how it is heightened.
CRB, p40 wrote:A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up.That's a very poor choice. Scoundrel is a weak archetype and defending bad choices just for the sake of defending them doesn't change that.
Other archetypes are less mad, better features, much better feats at 10th and what's really funny is later in the game you can get a rogue feat which does what feint does but you don't even need to roll invalidating scoundrel.
Both their and ruffian have an easier time bumping charisma than the archetype for charisma because ruffian doesn't need to bump dex for ac and thief doesn't need strength for damage.
The scoundrel *is* fine, lets avoid the mentality that the strongest options are somehow the baseline and instead focus on whether the character can pull the weight that it adds to the party budget, which the scoundrel certainly can, while offering unique control effects (being able to shut down reactions and flanking is significant), and two extra skills with no need to boost intelligence.
graystone |
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while offering unique control effects (being able to shut down reactions and flanking is significant), and two extra skills with no need to boost intelligence.
Well, the other rackets give a skill so it's only 1 extra and "shut down reactions and flanking" competes with clumsy 1, weakness 5 [bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing], +2d6 precision damage and flat-footed. Weakness 5 in particular is brutal as your whole team can join in on the fun. Add to that that shutting down reaction requires you know that the creature has them so that's a recall check or having it happen once.
Overall it IS a weaker option IMO. It'll be up to the player and the game they play in if it'll be fine for that game.
Ascalaphus |
It seems to me that while Thief might be the strongest racket if you're only going to have one rogue in the party, you can get more good stuff by bringing in different rackets for the second and third rogue in the party. Rather than all imposing the same (non-stacking) conditions, you can all do something different that helps.
lemeres |
That's a very poor choice. Scoundrel is a weak archetype and defending bad choices just for the sake of defending them doesn't change that.
Other archetypes are less mad, better features, much better feats at 10th and what's really funny is later in the game you can get a rogue feat which does what feint does but you don't even need to roll invalidating scoundrel.
Both their and ruffian have an easier time bumping charisma than the archetype for charisma because ruffian doesn't need to bump dex for ac and thief doesn't need strength for damage.
"later in the game" is "much later". If we are referring to instant opening, then there is a serious chance that your campaign might not even get to 14th level. And if things haven't changed with editions, PFS characters end at around level 12. There is a reason why a lot of classes have almost capstone like feats at level 10.
While I certainly agree that you should look into retraining if your game gets to such a high level, scoundrel provides a degree of relative ease and consistency for sneak attacks for a huge part of your career.
And honestly, if we are discussing MAD, then the dex to damage from that thief might not be as important at that level. Because of this edition's stat increase system, you are getting relatively broad stat boosts almost across the board. If you aren't going to invest into CHA, then you may well invest into strength instead for damage and athletics checks.