Changes coming in Guide 6.2


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Whilst I support a rewrite of the Hierarchy, it does remind me of a possible issue I'd like to raise (and suggest is clarified in the next version of the Card Guild Guide).

The Core Rulebook states the following rule regarding the "Owner" trait.

Core Rulebook, Page 19 wrote:
Some cards have the Owner trait, followed by the name of a character. If your character is the Owner of a card, you—and only you—may treat it as if it is level 0.

There are a very small selection of extremely high-level Owner cards; the best example being the Demonbane Temple Sword +3; a very powerful Weapon 6 from the Monk Class Deck and Owned by Sajan.

If Sajan can treat it as level 0; can't he start with it even in Tier 1? This might or might not conflict with the Card Guild Guide as-written...

Card Guild Guide, Page 7 wrote:
Characters can never begin a scenario with any card of a level higher than their tier.

...but if he counts the Demonbane Temple Sword +3 as if it were level 0, then that's not a problem, right? He's just got a level 0 card in his deck, not a level 6...right? It's not as if the Core Rulebook quote above says to treat it as 0 just for deckbuilding; it says he can just always treat it as 0.

Additionally, assuming that he does need to be level 6 to grab it; does he still gain that weapon by using any Weapon Deck Upgrade, without needing to find a Weapon 6 Deck Upgrade?

I suppose I feel the rules aren't crystal-clear when it comes to when you do and don't treat an Owned Card as Level 0, and I'd appreciate that be clarified in the Card Guild Guide.


As I remember, unofficially (as in it was never really a rule in the guide), characters don't have any cards of a level in their "working" class deck box until that Tier. So for the Monk class deck, you don't even see the Demonbane Temple Sword +3 until you are in Tier 6.

I think we do need a clarification here. This is a problem in box play too if you mix the Monk class deck in.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We'll look at it, but this is a rulebook problem, not a Guide problem.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Also, while it is actually a problem in standard play, it's not a problem under the current Guide. As I've said before, when the current PACS Guide uses older terminology, it's deliberate and specifically in the context of older cards, so it means exactly what it says.

So even though the rulebook says you get to treat the Demonbane Temple Sword +3 as level 0, the Hierarchy grants access to cards by set indicator, not level—after all, it uses "B," and there's no "level B"—so you can't get to that card until the Hierarchy lets you have cards with the set indicator 6 and the Basic trait.

We will need to fix the rule before we officially kill off the Hierarchy, though.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:

Also, while it is actually a problem in standard play, it's not a problem under the current Guide. As I've said before, when the current PACS Guide uses older terminology, it's deliberate and specifically in the context of older cards, so it means exactly what it says.

So even though the rulebook says you get to treat the Demonbane Temple Sword +3 as level 0, the Hierarchy grants access to cards by set indicator, not level—after all, it uses "B," and there's no "level B"—so you can't get to that card until the Hierarchy lets you have cards with the set indicator 6 and the Basic trait.

We will need to fix the rule before we officially kill off the Hierarchy, though.

I acknowledge that "Level 0" cards don't exist in the Hierarchy, so as-written he can't start with it (since the Hierarchy pretty much just exists for initial deckbuilding), but I assume they still exist for Deck Upgrade purposes? As it stands, what rule prevents a PACS Sajan taking a Weapon 0 (or B/C) Deck Upgrade at the end of his first scenario and including the weapon?

Level 0 cards do have some mechanical relevance, even in PACS deckbuilding, because of the Core/Curse replacement rule. If you have a Longbow (Core) in your Class Deck (replaced from Longbow (Pre-Core)), then presumably you can legally add it to your deck with a Weapon B/C Deck Upgrade, so "0" has some kind of meaning.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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You're right—it's busted in the Deck Upgrade process. Will fix. For now, don't do that. :-)

And yes, there is admittedly a mishmash of level and set indicator going on. Part of the point of removing the Hierarchy is cleaning that up so it'll all just be about level.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Will Building the Vault also remove reference to Basic (and Elite) traited cards?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
eddiephlash wrote:
Will Building the Vault also remove reference to Basic (and Elite) traited cards?

I don’t think this should happen. The existing rules allow box thinning so there is a larger chance of encountering level appropriate cards. Hitting basic banes as an AD5 character is a complete non event. If you have removed the basic and elite banes you are mainly hitting Veteran or higher level cards and they are real threats. Makes the game a lot more enjoyable

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

The Building the Vault rules remain appropriate for older scenarios.

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