Another armor proficiency talk, but on how to make it work?

[Corvo Spiritwind]

Stealing the vibe of "A Place to be Happy" thread, but hoping to put that energy towards band-aids and solutions. I'm not great at formulating my thoughts or formatting these things nicely, but I'd like to believe this is better than doing nothing.

This post focuses on the Armor Proficiencies(trained) gained via General Feats, which seem only worthwhile for the non-martial classes as they don't get Master in armor: Alchemist, Bard, Champion, Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard. This isn't to nitpick classes, but the Master bonus from other classes makes the gap overly large to even bother comparing, and kicks in so late that it's a late game build concern which is too early for me to comment on.

Disclaimer: This is working on assumption that you realize that up to 3 general feats will be spent on armor and are willing to work within that cost. Instead of the more optimization oriented Toughness, Incredible Initiative and Uncanny Acumen might be a better choice. If you want to max out attributes this isn't the optimal build path. If build path and armor variety aren't interesting you, going dex and taking cover seems as the best solution for a caster. Not counting Sanctuary and buffing while Invisible. I'm also assuming encounters aren't tailored solely on optimized martial with highest hp, attack and defense possible and toughness feat as early as possible.

Cost: 1-3 general feats, earliest received at: 3, 7, 11 for non-humans.
Cons:

1-3 feat cost

lower reflex save

possible penalty to str/dex skill checks and movement speed.

Pros: Build path variety;

Casters can dump Str/Dex and pump all points into Con/Int/Wis/Cha, surviving on Cantrips for damage.

Gish can build Str/Con/Casting stat.

Variable access to special materials and specific armor, content which will come in larger quantities than clothing, based on paizo's history.

The Math, compared to Martial: At 13th, assuming max Dex for armor
Fighter at 13th
Expert Unarmored(5dex+4prof=9AC)
Expert Light (4dex+1armor+4prof=9AC)
Expert Medium (1dex+4armor+4prof=9AC)
Expert Heavy (6armor+4prof=10AC)

Barbarian is special case with Expert Medium(+9AC), but takes a -1AC when raging, -2AC if Giant Instinct with oversized weapon for a total of +7AC, putting him on par with a Trained Medium, padding this with temporary HP equal to level + con.

Premise: The class doesn't get Master armor.(not counting runes)
Only fighter/rogue/ranger can get +5 Dex at 13th because you need class boost.

Optimized/min-maxed AC goal at 13th: +9AC
Dex build at 13th, adventurer's clothes: Free for everyone, Dex build only.
Unarmored Expert(19dex): 4dex+4prof +8AC

Dex cap at 18, leather armor: 1 general feat, earliest available at 3 universally. Free Expert for alchemist, bard, druid, warpriest
Light Trained(18dex): 4dex+1armor+2prof +7AC
Light Expert(18dex): 4dex+1armor+4prof +9AC

Dex cap at 12, breastplate: 2 general feat, earliest available at 7 universally. Free Expert for alchemist, druid, warpriest
Medium Trained(12dex): 1dex+4armor+2prof +7AC
Medium Expert(12dex): 1dex+4armor+4prof +9AC

Dex cap at 10, fullplate: 3 general feat, earliest available at 11 universally. Free Expert for fighter and champion.
Heavy Trained(10dex): 0dex+6armor+2prof +8AC
Heavy Expert(10dex): 0dex+6armor+4prof +10AC

My conclusion:

On average, it seems you will be at most 1AC behind your Expert unarmored/light/medium armor if you take higher rating as Trained. Upside is the build path diversity since you don't have to pump everything into dex, freeing up to 6 ability boosts that can be moved elsewhere.

Dex is best if you want easy and steady AC with little/no options and to keep things simple. Trained Armors are viable if you want to forgo the dex meta and explore other options that include a different ability spread, more specific armors and more special materials and rune access.

Numberwise, they are close enough, if we assume everyone min-maxed their dex, starting at 16 and capping at 20 at level 15. The real choice is your build path. Will you build with dex, pump up str, a mix or pump up all mental+con. I believe this choice seals the deal. If you go 18 dex, it's light armors, 12 dex is medium armors, and 10 dex is heavy armors. Anyone can use shields or Take Cover for one action cost.

If you want as much tankiness as possible early on, max dex with starting 16/18 and take Toughness at level 3, while wielding a wooden shield. Whenever possible, Take Cover instead of using shield. You'll lose armor and build variety and options, but you'll be on par with Martials. A caster using a spell and Take Cover with max dex sits at +12AC each round from level 5.

Solutions:(No homebrew)

Shield is pretty obvious for a bonus between +1 to +4. Tower shield is unique in that it's +4 bonus is actually from the Take Cover action, not the shield itself. Tower shield might not be worth it as requires one action to raise the shield, then another action to take cover for an additional +2. Upside is that you always have access to cover for +4 reflex. technically per RAW; you should be able to stealth once behind the shield...?

Take cover is pretty decent now as well, granting +4 AC, reflex vs area effects, Stealth checks.
Shield cantrip is handy but very limited in it's cooldown. Any other ideas how to bring up the AC besides runes, or tricks for surviving to deal with having AC on par with a raging barbarian in expert medium armor?

Someone mentioned an interesting dip in another thread, into Sorcerer for Demonic bloodline spell; Glutton's Jaw, which lasts 10 rounds and allows the character to bite someone for 1d8 damage, and recovering temporary hit points with each hit. This would have synergy with an Str character as their accuracy and damage would be above a dex build.

This got much longer than I thought but there's a lot to cover, I'm hopeful someone out there has some interesting solutions and ideas until something more official happens. It is what it is and one might as well make the best out of it.

[Megistone]

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Shield is pretty obvious for a bonus between +1 to +4. Tower shield is unique in that it's +4 bonus is actually from the Take Cover action, not the shield itself. Tower shield might not be worth it as requires one action to raise the shield, then another action to take cover for an additional +2. Upside is that you always have access to cover for +4 reflex. technically per RAW; you should be able to stealth once behind the shield...?

Yes, if you paint the shield to make is look like a bush.

Hide behind the bush and move with it: no one will understand what's going on, guaranteed! Cartoons don't lie...

[Corvo Spiritwind]

Megistone wrote:

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

Shield is pretty obvious for a bonus between +1 to +4. Tower shield is unique in that it's +4 bonus is actually from the Take Cover action, not the shield itself. Tower shield might not be worth it as requires one action to raise the shield, then another action to take cover for an additional +2. Upside is that you always have access to cover for +4 reflex. technically per RAW; you should be able to stealth once behind the shield...?

Yes, if you paint the shield to make is look like a bush.

Hide behind the bush and move with it: no one will understand what's going on, guaranteed! Cartoons don't lie...

Is it a shield bash if they run into it?

Remember Dark Souls 3, with the um...Dual Tower shields?
Or Braum from League. Get a magic buckler that can be pressed against a door, and makes said door into a tower shield that perfectly fits the doorframe. They try to open the door and you go BAM.

I'm saving this for a npc who wields a mimic as a shield...

[Kyrone]

Alchemist reach master in shirtless and light armor at level 19.

But anyway, it looks like the general feats for armors are there for prerequisites for Archetypes.

[Corvo Spiritwind]

Kyrone wrote:

Alchemist reach master in shirtless and light armor at level 19.

But anyway, it looks like the general feats for armors are there for prerequisites for Archetypes.

Huh, I missed that. I'd add it if it let me edit :( But really good to know for the future, thank you.

[Castilliano]

Halflings can slide over to human at 5th, getting a 1st level human feat in the process, which could be converted to a general feat.
(Probably the least likely Ancestry to want heavier armor...)

Also, a Rogue MCD gives light armor (at 2nd), which can speed the process, though they'd likely stop at medium since then you have 14+ Dex.

Also, I think you meant Cleric, not Champion, for which classes cannot get higher armor proficiency in the OP.

Opinions: With 18+ Str, I think trained in heavy armor (AC +8) is well worth it compared to the extremes it takes to get to expert in medium armor (AC +9). At least one stat boost & a feat (or much more) difference. I'm just a little sad it favors the human(ish) route to get there in decent time.

I also think Dwarfs have a large advantage w/ Unburdened Iron making a low Str more viable. An 8 Str Halfling could slide over and take this too! Imagine everybody's surprise when the overburdened Halfling sprints off.
Rolls?

[Corvo Spiritwind]

Castilliano wrote:

Halflings can slide over to human at 5th, getting a 1st level human feat in the process, which could be converted to a general feat.

(Probably the least likely Ancestry to want heavier armor...)

Also, a Rogue MCD gives light armor (at 2nd), which can speed the process, though they'd likely stop at medium since then you have 14+ Dex.

Also, I think you meant Cleric, not Champion, for which classes cannot get higher armor proficiency in the OP.

Opinions: With 18+ Str, I think trained in heavy armor (AC +8) is well worth it compared to the extremes it takes to get to expert in medium armor (AC +9). At least one stat boost & a feat (or much more) difference. I'm just a little sad it favors the human(ish) route to get there in decent time.

I also think Dwarfs have a large advantage w/ Unburdened Iron making a low Str more viable. An 8 Str Halfling could slide over and take this too! Imagine everybody's surprise when the overburdened Halfling sprints off.
Rolls?

Can't they also literally slide over to a human and use them as cover for +4AC/Reflex/Hide?

It seems like some of the most optimal ancestries for armored build paths is Human > Halfling > Dwarf, with the last one using it in a better way rather than getting it early. With how cantrips now work, a pure caster doesn't actually need str or dex either. I'll be testing a cloistered cleric with pumped up Con and every mental stat to see how that goes. Could nail the aesthetic with a nice shield and a staff for more spell variety.

With the Dwarf brought up, I'm kinda liking the idea of a merchant type in full armor with the feat to carry extra bulk and an adopted ancestry > Nimble Elf. He fast. He bulky. He roll.