What combinations have you come up with?


Advice


Curious what people found to work well together that perhaps didn't seem obvious at a first or even a third glance. Playing with the new classes and ancestry content, I've mostly delved into the gish potentials, and currently I'm hoping to make these two work:

Rogue, dipped into Wild Order Druid for Wild Shape: Hoping no one will think twice about a stray cat or a raven and might be perfect both for exploration and sneaking around. Why sneak past the guards when you can brush up against their leg and waddle away. Might have to find ways to extend said wild shape.

Caster, dipped into Martial: Testing bed for seeing what spells and caster feats can work with a martial, mainly focusing on high Athletics. My current favorite combo is dimension door + trip/grab, followed by anti-magic field + grab in the next round as a way of locking down enemy casters.

Spiked Gauntlets x 2 combined with Fighter duelist feats: Always have a free-hand, even when attacking. Something really snazzy about the feat that allows you to parry attacks for allies with your fists.


Martials multiclassing in Demonic Sorcerer for the Maw to gain temporary hit points each turn.


Kyrone wrote:
Martials multiclassing in Demonic Sorcerer for the Maw to gain temporary hit points each turn.

That's an interesting dip, I assume they don't stack with Rage's temporary hp, but once those wear off, the Maw could keep them new pool of HP up?


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Kyrone wrote:
Martials multiclassing in Demonic Sorcerer for the Maw to gain temporary hit points each turn.
That's an interesting dip, I assume they don't stack with Rage's temporary hp, but once those wear off, the Maw could keep them new pool of HP up?

Rage at lvl 20 will give around 25 HP (20 lvl + 5 con) and you can renew it with a feat later by sacrificing an action.

The Maw is 5d6 temporary HP (average 18) at max level but you recover these hit points every that you attack, it's good action economy wise.


Very few, and a lot get wrecked by the proficiency transitions at 11th/13th.

A few dips here and there, but mostly combos have an absurdly high opportunity cost attached.

I'd like to do a silent sorcerer, but that involves tossing three feats into wizard multiclassing and doesn't come online until 8th. Way too steep (especially sacrificing dex for int to take wizard dedication early enough) for what is essentially flavor text.


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Champion multiclassing Cleric, which in a lot of systems would be highly redundant, but here it works great. It's seamlessly thematic, doesn't even feel like multiclassing. You get 2 cantrips, Shield being amazing for 2-hander champions. At 4th you take Domain Initiate, which is better than the Champion's Deity's Domain because it gives you an extra focus point, which you can use for Lay on Hands. You don't even need to take Basic Spellcasting to get good value out of it.


sorcerer(draconic or elemental) with champion dedication and shield block, full plate...using that 3rd action for raise shield or athletics.

same build with longspear is also viable

but best gish IMO is proly half-elven wizard with ranger dedication and hunted shot...arcane archer with rougish skills...you can even pick up another dedication with multitalented at lvl 9.


Voss wrote:

Very few, and a lot get wrecked by the proficiency transitions at 11th/13th.

A few dips here and there, but mostly combos have an absurdly high opportunity cost attached.

I'd like to do a silent sorcerer, but that involves tossing three feats into wizard multiclassing and doesn't come online until 8th. Way too steep (especially sacrificing dex for int to take wizard dedication early enough) for what is essentially flavor text.

If that's the case, it sounds like your games could maybe start reducing AC of enemies by 2 at 11th and their accuracy by 2 at 13th be enough? The whole "Expert at 11th-13th isn't enough" applies to everyone except a few martials, so if a +2 to hit is such a big deal, you might have bigger issues than combinations.

lordcirth wrote:
Champion multiclassing Cleric, which in a lot of systems would be highly redundant, but here it works great. It's seamlessly thematic, doesn't even feel like multiclassing. You get 2 cantrips, Shield being amazing for 2-hander champions. At 4th you take Domain Initiate, which is better than the Champion's Deity's Domain because it gives you an extra focus point, which you can use for Lay on Hands. You don't even need to take Basic Spellcasting to get good value out of it.

That sounds handy, a bit more utility to a solid defender.

Do Focus points from multiple sources stack? Didn't think of that, huh.

Debelinho wrote:

sorcerer(draconic or elemental) with champion dedication and shield block, full plate...using that 3rd action for raise shield or athletics.

same build with longspear is also viable

but best gish IMO is proly half-elven wizard with ranger dedication and hunted shot...arcane archer with rougish skills...you can even pick up another dedication with multitalented at lvl 9.

I need to look into the sorcerer stuff, my current gish is a Wizard dipping into fighter and using the half elf stat bypass on champion at 9th. Mostly stuck with wizard because I just love Hand of the Apprentice with a warhammer, visually. Great encounter opener, yeet the huge thing 500ft. Might have to apply thundering to it. Have you looked into any specific shields that might work with the combo?


you want to build thor or captain america? it's hard to do both :)


I'm kind of partial to the Tangled Tentacles Monk- multiclass as a sorcerer for tentacular limbs, then you can finesse fight with reach- especially handy with Tangled Forest Stance.


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Debelinho wrote:
you want to build thor or captain america? it's hard to do both :)

Captain Thor. The ass of America actually gets to use the hammer so it's not that far fetched!

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I'm kind of partial to the Tangled Tentacles Monk- multiclass as a sorcerer for tentacular limbs, then you can finesse fight with reach- especially handy with Tangled Forest Stance.

On one hand I want to know more. On another, I'm inclined to kinkshame.


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Wizard (Rogue), picking up just enough rogue to be able to follow up a spell cast with a sneak attack/quick draw/bespell weapon strike. If you can stomach losing enough wizard abilities, magical trickster has a lot to offer as well.


Main problem with MCing sorcerer for the focus powers is that you can't use the "sorcerer refocus" mechanic (you can do it in parallel with other, non refocusing, activities) if you want to be able to refocus more than 1 focus point between combat. So it kind of discourages "getting ki powers" unless you decide "I'll just meditate" (possibly on what you have become.)

Still, you got 2 cantrips (shield and a ranged attack probably) from the dedication, and there are plenty of good monk feats which aren't ki spells.


lordcirth wrote:
Champion multiclassing Cleric, which in a lot of systems would be highly redundant, but here it works great. It's seamlessly thematic, doesn't even feel like multiclassing. You get 2 cantrips, Shield being amazing for 2-hander champions. At 4th you take Domain Initiate, which is better than the Champion's Deity's Domain because it gives you an extra focus point, which you can use for Lay on Hands. You don't even need to take Basic Spellcasting to get good value out of it.

What stat array do you use for this?

I was trying to recreate by brothers current shelyn devoted muse glaive wielding daring champion/mesmerist using liberator as a base and couldn’t get above 10 wisdom if I wanted 18 strength and 14 charisma
(And of course high strength is a long way from the original class but there is no finesse glaive option in this edition )


This thread has made me wonder what kind of Avengers 2E and whether any gaps indicate potential new avenues for classes / archetypes (not that avengers / superheroes is the genre they are going for)

I guess Hulk is some kind a giant instinct barbarian

Thor as mentioned is presumably a fighter/wizard

Captiain is a monk/champion or champion/monk

Iron man is always hard because of the suit. Alchemist is most appropriate at the moment but some kind of artificer (for quick crafting of magical consumables) or tinker (for tech ones) seems like an opening. But I assume artificer is too “Eberron” otherwise i would have expected it in 1E


I've been fairly disappointed in my attempts to multiclass. I started out wanting to make a cleric/monk, but the cleric's ability to punch was just bad. Then I went to primary monk but trying to figure out spells (slots or focus) that worked with the monk didn't click for me. Then I tried making a protector monk that uses champion's reaction and shield ally and it kind of works by about level 14 and with a mostly wasted Basic Devotion feat (and wasting half of the Champion Devotion feat).

I don't know if I'm trying to do too much, but it's felt very lackluster to me which has been disappointing because I like the idea of 2e multiclassing.


Lanathar wrote:
lordcirth wrote:
Champion multiclassing Cleric, which in a lot of systems would be highly redundant, but here it works great. It's seamlessly thematic, doesn't even feel like multiclassing. You get 2 cantrips, Shield being amazing for 2-hander champions. At 4th you take Domain Initiate, which is better than the Champion's Deity's Domain because it gives you an extra focus point, which you can use for Lay on Hands. You don't even need to take Basic Spellcasting to get good value out of it.

What stat array do you use for this?

I was trying to recreate by brothers current shelyn devoted muse glaive wielding daring champion/mesmerist using liberator as a base and couldn’t get above 10 wisdom if I wanted 18 strength and 14 charisma
(And of course high strength is a long way from the original class but there is no finesse glaive option in this edition )

I would go for 16 Strength, 12 Dex (breastplate), 14 Wis for the multiclass requirement. I went with 10 Cha; you really don't need it even though it's iconic.

18 in a stat at level 1 is, I suspect, not even that good if you are going to play to 5th and beyond.


oconnor0 wrote:

I've been fairly disappointed in my attempts to multiclass. I started out wanting to make a cleric/monk, but the cleric's ability to punch was just bad. Then I went to primary monk but trying to figure out spells (slots or focus) that worked with the monk didn't click for me. Then I tried making a protector monk that uses champion's reaction and shield ally and it kind of works by about level 14 and with a mostly wasted Basic Devotion feat (and wasting half of the Champion Devotion feat).

I don't know if I'm trying to do too much, but it's felt very lackluster to me which has been disappointing because I like the idea of 2e multiclassing.

I think that's intended, but to be fair, they can punch better than ever. Every caster is behind the non-fighter martial by one proficiency level, but every martial is not only spell levels, but also spell slots behind a caster by multiclassing.

Personally I like it because you have to make a choice: Caster/martial for weapons supplementing full casting. Or Martial/caster to supplement weapons with casting, usually self buffs or CC. Though I'm biased because MC now allows us to proceed without losing as much as before. Sure a caster loses 2 feats to get expert weaponry at 12th, but at least you keep your full casting and a ton of class feats while swinging that greatsword.


Lanathar wrote:
lordcirth wrote:
Champion multiclassing Cleric, which in a lot of systems would be highly redundant, but here it works great. It's seamlessly thematic, doesn't even feel like multiclassing. You get 2 cantrips, Shield being amazing for 2-hander champions. At 4th you take Domain Initiate, which is better than the Champion's Deity's Domain because it gives you an extra focus point, which you can use for Lay on Hands. You don't even need to take Basic Spellcasting to get good value out of it.

What stat array do you use for this?

I was trying to recreate by brothers current shelyn devoted muse glaive wielding daring champion/mesmerist using liberator as a base and couldn’t get above 10 wisdom if I wanted 18 strength and 14 charisma
(And of course high strength is a long way from the original class but there is no finesse glaive option in this edition )

18 Str, 14 Wis, & 14 Cha leave you room for one more boost, and with full plate, likely in Con.

18 Str, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 14 Wis, 14 Cha.
Depending on Champion focus abilities & your skill role, 12 Cha might do (for a 14 Con, despite being able to heal yourself). Though yes, if you wanted light armor, you'd be strained.

And a Mesmerist, especially of Shelyn, may be better represented w/ Occult spells via Bard. Still get Shield, no 14 needed for Wis, and it has a few options to get a focus point. Plus Inspiring Courage later is both useful & fits Shelyn.


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Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

I think that's intended, but to be fair, they can punch better than ever. Every caster is behind the non-fighter martial by one proficiency level, but every martial is not only spell levels, but also spell slots behind a caster by multiclassing.

Personally I like it because you have to make a choice: Caster/martial for weapons supplementing full casting. Or Martial/caster to supplement weapons with casting, usually self buffs or CC. Though I'm biased because MC now allows us to proceed without losing as much as before. Sure a caster loses 2 feats to get expert weaponry at 12th, but at least you keep your full casting and a ton of class feats while swinging that greatsword.

Part of my struggle is that if I go primary martial, I need feats to make the martial character do martial things (besides just Strike) which means I don't have space for enough caster feats. While if I go primary caster, I don't get the martial proficiencies to give me confidence they will be, at least, competent in their martial role.

Feats feel more important for martial classes, that they are bigger boosts for the character; while feats for caster classes feel more like bonuses since their core power comes from spellcasting.


Everyone loves Tenticular Limbs for extending unarmed reach, but it only ever provides 10' for that purpose (more requires an extra action as part of casting a spell and can't be used with unarmed attacks), so it's not really worth it. Just use a Bo Staff.


Xenocrat wrote:
Everyone loves Tenticular Limbs for extending unarmed reach, but it only ever provides 10' for that purpose (more requires an extra action as part of casting a spell and can't be used with unarmed attacks), so it's not really worth it. Just use a Bo Staff.

Can't finesse a bo-staff, plus the visual is fun.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

Main problem with MCing sorcerer for the focus powers is that you can't use the "sorcerer refocus" mechanic (you can do it in parallel with other, non refocusing, activities) if you want to be able to refocus more than 1 focus point between combat. So it kind of discourages "getting ki powers" unless you decide "I'll just meditate" (possibly on what you have become.)

Still, you got 2 cantrips (shield and a ranged attack probably) from the dedication, and there are plenty of good monk feats which aren't ki spells.

I wonder what happens if you forgo choosing any Monk ki power feats and only get Focus Spells from multiclassing Sorcerer.


Ventnor wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Main problem with MCing sorcerer for the focus powers is that you can't use the "sorcerer refocus" mechanic (you can do it in parallel with other, non refocusing, activities) if you want to be able to refocus more than 1 focus point between combat. So it kind of discourages "getting ki powers" unless you decide "I'll just meditate" (possibly on what you have become.)

Still, you got 2 cantrips (shield and a ranged attack probably) from the dedication, and there are plenty of good monk feats which aren't ki spells.

I wonder what happens if you forgo choosing any Monk ki power feats and only get Focus Spells from multiclassing Sorcerer.

If you only want Focus Spells from Sorcerer, your proficiency in their DCs doesn't increase (unless you take the Spellcasting archetype feats or you get Monk ki power spells and use the same casting DC for both Monk and Sorcerer Focus Spells).


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Main problem with MCing sorcerer for the focus powers is that you can't use the "sorcerer refocus" [mechanic (you can do it in parallel with other, non refocusing, activities) if you want to be able to refocus more than 1 focus point between combat. So it kind of discourages "getting ki powers" unless you decide "I'll just meditate" (possibly on what you have become.)

Maybe this belongs in its own thread, but in general I don't think this works, based on the requirements of the refocus action, as described here..

Aon PRD wrote:
Requirements You have a focus pool, and you have spent at least 1 Focus Point since you last regained any Focus Points.

So without the Focus/Wellspring feats, it seems to me that only the first focus you have is renewable; the others are daily resources. I suppose this is why the Focus/Wellspring feats are actually worth Level 12/18 class feats...


oconnor0 wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

I think that's intended, but to be fair, they can punch better than ever. Every caster is behind the non-fighter martial by one proficiency level, but every martial is not only spell levels, but also spell slots behind a caster by multiclassing.

Personally I like it because you have to make a choice: Caster/martial for weapons supplementing full casting. Or Martial/caster to supplement weapons with casting, usually self buffs or CC. Though I'm biased because MC now allows us to proceed without losing as much as before. Sure a caster loses 2 feats to get expert weaponry at 12th, but at least you keep your full casting and a ton of class feats while swinging that greatsword.

Part of my struggle is that if I go primary martial, I need feats to make the martial character do martial things (besides just Strike) which means I don't have space for enough caster feats. While if I go primary caster, I don't get the martial proficiencies to give me confidence they will be, at least, competent in their martial role.

Feats feel more important for martial classes, that they are bigger boosts for the character; while feats for caster classes feel more like bonuses since their core power comes from spellcasting.

It's gonna be a trade either way, probably not easy either way either, but at least unlike PF1, if you go from martial to caster, you both loose BAB and lag behind casting and casting dc's a lot. Same the other way around. It's a small comfort, but it seems fun so far.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Main problem with MCing sorcerer for the focus powers is that you can't use the "sorcerer refocus" mechanic (you can do it in parallel with other, non refocusing, activities).

On the bright side, it turns out that this might not be true. I'd assumed it was based on my reading of the multiclass archetype feats, but then I noticed a rules block in the CRB that seemed to state otherwise.

Here's the PRD reference. Check out the text box to the right; my read is that you get to use either class's refocus activity.
AoN PRD wrote:
Likewise, when you Refocus, you get back a point as long as you follow the guidelines of any abilities that granted you focus spells


First World Bard wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Main problem with MCing sorcerer for the focus powers is that you can't use the "sorcerer refocus" [mechanic (you can do it in parallel with other, non refocusing, activities) if you want to be able to refocus more than 1 focus point between combat. So it kind of discourages "getting ki powers" unless you decide "I'll just meditate" (possibly on what you have become.)

Maybe this belongs in its own thread, but in general I don't think this works, based on the requirements of the refocus action, as described here..

Aon PRD wrote:
Requirements You have a focus pool, and you have spent at least 1 Focus Point since you last regained any Focus Points.
So without the Focus/Wellspring feats, it seems to me that only the first focus you have is renewable; the others are daily resources. I suppose this is why the Focus/Wellspring feats are actually worth Level 12/18 class feats...

I think what he meant was that you can only choose the Monk feats to refocus 2/3 points at a time, rather than the Sorcerer versions via MC, and he's assuming that if you have the Monk feats for 2/3 focus powers you have to use the Monk refocus methods for them to work.


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Xenocrat wrote:
First World Bard wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Main problem with MCing sorcerer for the focus powers is that you can't use the "sorcerer refocus" [mechanic (you can do it in parallel with other, non refocusing, activities) if you want to be able to refocus more than 1 focus point between combat. So it kind of discourages "getting ki powers" unless you decide "I'll just meditate" (possibly on what you have become.)

Maybe this belongs in its own thread, but in general I don't think this works, based on the requirements of the refocus action, as described here..

Aon PRD wrote:
Requirements You have a focus pool, and you have spent at least 1 Focus Point since you last regained any Focus Points.
So without the Focus/Wellspring feats, it seems to me that only the first focus you have is renewable; the others are daily resources. I suppose this is why the Focus/Wellspring feats are actually worth Level 12/18 class feats...
I think what he meant was that you can only choose the Monk feats to refocus 2/3 points at a time, rather than the Sorcerer versions via MC, and he's assuming that if you have the Monk feats for 2/3 focus powers you have to use the Monk refocus methods for them to work.

I don't think that's actually true. The feats just say you gain 2/3 points whenever you Refocus, and the rules for Refocusing say you can use any Refocus method you have available.


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Xenocrat wrote:
I think what he meant was that you can only choose the Monk feats to refocus 2/3 points at a time, rather than the Sorcerer versions via MC, and he's assuming that if you have the Monk feats for 2/3 focus powers you have to use the Monk refocus methods for them to work.

Ahh, Okay. The flavor of the monk Refocus feats points in that direction, but I don't think the RAW create that restriction. Still, it'd be an interesting topic for a FAQ. Edit: Ninja'd!


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MaxAstro wrote:


I don't think that's actually true. The feats just say you gain 2/3 points whenever you Refocus, and the rules for Refocusing say you can use any Refocus method you have available.

I agree.


Since you guys went onto Focus, if you got two classes with focus, can you pick which method you use to refocus or do you need to do each point separately?


Repulsion spell combos well with walls to trap or pin enemies or ranged attacks to avoid melee rushes and AOO.

Repulsion + Wall of Force/Wall of Stone/Prismatic Wall can be combined with some natural restrictive terrain to pin enemies in a corner. (Combo Prismatic Wall with Hydraulic Push or Telekinetic Maneuver to yeet foes into a rainbow wonderland.)

Repulsion on a Bard helps the Shortbow Bard to fire shots off with impunity while remaining in a Dirge of Doom range.

It can also form a safe zone for allies to retreat and healers to take care of business mid fight with less threat.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Since you guys went onto Focus, if you got two classes with focus, can you pick which method you use to refocus or do you need to do each point separately?

Check out First World Bard's second to last post.


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Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Since you guys went onto Focus, if you got two classes with focus, can you pick which method you use to refocus or do you need to do each point separately?

The points are interchangeable and have no differences once gained.

All combined, you're capped at 3, no matter how many sources you use.
Any method you could use to replenish works, so all of your options are on the table.
Note: you can only gain one focus point when you Refocus (barring specific feats) and can't Refocus again until you spend again. It doesn't matter how many methods to Refocus you have. Once max.
Which is to say, you can constantly refresh one and only one focus point when resting, even if you've spent two.
This makes gaining more focus points less valuable than the first, but they are there for emergencies. And if you take one of the feats to replenish two per Refocus, that gets you two uses per cycle, which can be pretty sweet.


MaxAstro wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Since you guys went onto Focus, if you got two classes with focus, can you pick which method you use to refocus or do you need to do each point separately?
Check out First World Bard's second to last post.

Gonna re-read the posts when I get home. Not easy to navigate the forum on phone sadly :(


First World Bard wrote:
Maybe this belongs in its own thread, but in general I don't think this works

I actually already discussed this with Mark Seifter.

If you have the sorc blood focus power, you have 1 focus point, which has the sorcerer "you don't need to take any special effort to refocus". However, if you later gain Ki spells, you will now have 2 focus points but the sorcerer "refocus 2 and 3" feats are unavailable to you (as they are level >10), only the monk ones are. But the monk refocusing does require special effort (i.e. meditation) and you cannot combine a refocus action with another refocus action.

Specifically-
-Having a focus pool of 2 isn't very useful unless you can refocus 2 points between combat.
- Refocusing 2 points between combat requires a feat like Meditative Focus that tells you that you regain 2 focus points when you refocus.
- You can't get the sorcerer version of that, it is too high of level.
- The monk one does require effort, unlike the sorcerer one, and cannot be combined with other actions.

So that's what I meant "by it kind of discourages you from taking ki spells".


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
First World Bard wrote:
Maybe this belongs in its own thread, but in general I don't think this works

I actually already discussed this with Mark Seifter.

If you have the sorc blood focus power, you have 1 focus point, which has the sorcerer "you don't need to take any special effort to refocus". However, if you later gain Ki spells, you will now have 2 focus points but the sorcerer "refocus 2 and 3" feats are unavailable to you (as they are level >10), only the monk ones are. But the monk refocusing does require special effort (i.e. meditation) and you cannot combine a refocus action with another refocus action.

Specifically-
-Having a focus pool of 2 isn't very useful unless you can refocus 2 points between combat.
- Refocusing 2 points between combat requires a feat like Meditative Focus that tells you that you regain 2 focus points when you refocus.
- You can't get the sorcerer version of that, it is too high of level.
- The monk one does require effort, unlike the sorcerer one, and cannot be combined with other actions.

So that's what I meant "by it kind of discourages you from taking ki spells".

I don't understand why Meditative Focus requires you to use monk-style Refocusing. The feat says "when you Refocus", not "when you meditate to Refocus".


I’m guessing it’s implied or intended by the names given to feats to recover extra focus that you’re supposed to use them with that class’s refocus method, but I don’t think the rules require it.

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To be clear, I didn't weigh in on this particular question. I just said you can't Refocus while Refocusing with two compatible Refocus requirements (think meditating for cleric of Irori or monk, or anyone with sorcerer) in some attempt to recover 2 points at once (not that it would probably help you even if you could try to do it, since you've created a race condition)


I’m glad that going from the playtest to the final edition they simplified some things they previously had odd rules on. For example:

1. AoO having a penalty on attacks
2. Cone of Cold having the odd third action for a bigger range changed to just bigger range
3. Some of the wild shape stuff
4. Others I know but can’t think of off the top of my head.

However I don’t understand the weird wordings for these extra focus feats. Like say you have 3 points, but if you use 3 in a fight you’re maxed out at one the rest of the day unless you took one or two feats. Now I’m guessing this is to dissuade people from taking thirty minutes after every fight to load up and use them all each and every fight. But I think the cost for that is pretty high especially if in a dungeon. And some of these I agree are quite powerful and you likely don’t want a sorcerer having elemental blast three times every fight.

However not all focus spells are created equal and it leaves spells like Lay on Hands in a weird place. I do hope that eventually there is some mechanic to let some of these iconic abilities get used more. Like say Lay on Hands not costing a focus point if you use it on an ally who is dying.

Another thing I don’t like about focus spells is the auto heightened. Some of these you want to be able to cast at a lower level, say you want to wild shape into a smaller creature or want to knock an enemy out but not kill them. As far as I can tell if you’re a high level druid there is no way to turn yourself into a medium canine/cat, even with form control.

Anyway that’s a lot to say while I like focus points quite a bit with how they’ve simplified class resources there is a couple things about the implementation I don’t love. And since I’m running my own game and I have a Druid player I’m certainly not going to hold to the restriction of having to auto heighten.


Arakasius wrote:

I’m glad that going from the playtest to the final edition they simplified some things they previously had odd rules on. For example:

1. AoO having a penalty on attacks
2. Cone of Cold having the odd third action for a bigger range changed to just bigger range
3. Some of the wild shape stuff
4. Others I know but can’t think of off the top of my head.

However I don’t understand the weird wordings for these extra focus feats. Like say you have 3 points, but if you use 3 in a fight you’re maxed out at one the rest of the day unless you took one or two feats. Now I’m guessing this is to dissuade people from taking thirty minutes after every fight to load up and use them all each and every fight. But I think the cost for that is pretty high especially if in a dungeon. And some of these I agree are quite powerful and you likely don’t want a sorcerer having elemental blast three times every fight.

However not all focus spells are created equal and it leaves spells like Lay on Hands in a weird place. I do hope that eventually there is some mechanic to let some of these iconic abilities get used more. Like say Lay on Hands not costing a focus point if you use it on an ally who is dying.

Another thing I don’t like about focus spells is the auto heightened. Some of these you want to be able to cast at a lower level, say you want to wild shape into a smaller creature or want to knock an enemy out but not kill them. As far as I can tell if you’re a high level druid there is no way to turn yourself into a medium canine/cat, even with form control.

Anyway that’s a lot to say while I like focus points quite a bit with how they’ve simplified class resources there is a couple things about the implementation I don’t love. And since I’m running my own game and I have a Druid player I’m certainly not going to hold to the restriction of having to auto heighten.

In the case of heightened wild shape, isn't the case that you just choose which form list to take from? If I recall, starting wild shape gives access to Pest Form and later opens up to Animal Form. So in case of a cat, I'd take pest form, and for more combat oriented, Animal form? That was at least my understanding.


TWF Fighter works great with MCing into Ranger.


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
In the case of heightened wild shape, isn't the case that you just choose which form list to take from? If I recall, starting...

Wild shape says this. “When you transform into a form granted by a spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose from a version of the spell heightened to wild shape’s level.” Between this and focus spells wording it seems rather clear you can’t by RAW unheighten a focus spell. And since animal form has two heightenings this means at high level you can’t use the base medium version. Anyway it’s awkward wording and i don’t quite understand why the devs did this in at least Wild Shapes case. Very few focus spells you’d want to not heighten, but there certainly are some.


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Arakasius wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
In the case of heightened wild shape, isn't the case that you just choose which form list to take from? If I recall, starting...
Wild shape says this. “When you transform into a form granted by a spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose from a version of the spell heightened to wild shape’s level.” Between this and focus spells wording it seems rather clear you can’t by RAW unheighten a focus spell. And since animal form has two heightenings this means at high level you can’t use the base medium version. Anyway it’s awkward wording and i don’t quite understand why the devs did this in at least Wild Shapes case. Very few focus spells you’d want to not heighten, but there certainly are some.

Corvo was pointing out that Pest Form was an option, albeit a Pest Form heightened far more than needed.

Also, heightening might not be optional, but the extra effects from heightening might be. Should be. I'd look into that. So the counteract difficulty would increase, but you wouldn't lose an option for casting a better version. That's silly.
"Now that I'm advanced at this, I don't know how to do basic stuff."

And past 3.x/PF versions let you cast below max, as long as you didn't go below the minimum level to cast the spell. So a 20th level caster could cast a Fireball as a 5th level caster, but not a 4th level one.
Really unsure the status on that one since I've never had a player want to do this. Also, in PF2 caster level's less important for spell effects other than save. Which is to say I doubt there's a formal rule, but the legacy exists of casting a spell below one's norm.

Dark Archive

As others have said, Wild Shape still allows you to choose which form spell you pick a shape from. It just heightens that form spell to your highest spell level, which normally just gives you a higher counteract DC and possibly some increased stats.


LuniasM wrote:
As others have said, Wild Shape still allows you to choose which form spell you pick a shape from. It just heightens that form spell to your highest spell level, which normally just gives you a higher counteract DC and possibly some increased stats.

With enough bonuses, I can actually become the cat that easily murders commoners with a scratch. Fear me.

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