Is 'warfare lore' a valid skill to use for initiative?
Seems a bit too ... theoretical(?) for most adventuring situations. I also think it's more about moving armies than adventuring parties.
I might allow it, but only if you have ample time to study the enemies and their movement before combat starts.
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The rule for initiative is "depends". I could see a GM allowing warfare lore in a pitched battle between armies.
I don't think you should expect to consistently use anything other than Perception or maybe Stealth for initiative, the ability to use other skills is more of a way to make rolling initiative more interesting and make it interact with the way combat began than to encourage every player to find a way to circumvent Perception.
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Initiative often takes the skill you were actively using during exploration mode just prior to a fight breaking out. It seems a bit of a stretch to suppose you are using Warfare lore constantly while exploring.
Using a skill that most players will have at an untrained level can really make initiative weird.
To use warfare lore, you'll need a good justification and a good way to handle the fact that most players won't have it.
The fact that most players won't have it doesn't change anything.
If a situation comes up, where one character can use warfare lore, the other characters/enemies still mostly use Perception or Stealth.
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I could see some characters standing on the sidelines of a major battle, say on a hilltop where they can see groups of combattants maneuver and close to melee. One character is using Warfare lore to understand the hows and whys of these maneuvers. Suddenly, they are attacked by a group of skirmishers that had set out on a wide flanking maneuver and came upon the PCs. In such a circumstance, that one player would use Warfare lore as his initiative. The other players' initiative would be determined by what actions they called out as doing during that time - defaulting to Perception in the absence of any other clear candidate.
Using multiple type of rolls is a good idea. That would make a very nice house rule.
Using different types of rolls for different characters, based on what was going on when combat broke out, is the default rule of PF2. No modification necessary.
Using different types of rolls for different characters, based on what was going on when combat broke out, is the default rule of PF2. No modification necessary.
I wasn't clear. Allowing the players to choose what to roll is a good house rule. Otherwise, forcing him to roll a lore skill may end up quite disappointing as he'll certainly be untrained.
Maybe, in some very specific situation.
But definitely not as a general replacement.
Either perception or stealth should cover initiative rolls in 95% of situations.
Aside from Wheldrake's example I have a hard time imagining a relevant situation. And I'm not even sure I agree with Wheeldrake's example, because I feel like perception is still more appropriate because his example character isn't observing the specific enemy attacking them, they we're observing other larger groups of enemies.
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Using different types of rolls for different characters, based on what was going on when combat broke out, is the default rule of PF2. No modification necessary.I wasn't clear. Allowing the players to choose what to roll is a good house rule. Otherwise, forcing him to roll a lore skill may end up quite disappointing as he'll certainly be untrained.
The players do choose what to roll, within reason. They default to perception, but if they enter combat while doing a particular exploration mode tactic (like Stealth for Avoid Notice) or with a certain declaration (like "hey, look over there" in a social situation before drawing your knife and attacking for Deception) and that alternate skill modifier is higher than perception, that's what the GM should be using unless it's a player trying to obviously game the situation with a nonsensical selection just because it's better than perception.
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I assumed the the OP *wanted* to figure out some situation where he *could* use Warfare lore for initiative. I agree that 95% or more of the time, initiative will be perception or stealth.
In my first game last Friday, I had one of my two players use the lore skill he was using to Earn a Living for initiative when a fight broke out at the tavern where he was working - in this case it was Underworld lore. The lesson I learned from reading the CRB is that whatever the PCs are doing during Exploration mode will often determine the skill used for initiative when you suddenly switch to Encounter mode.
This is exactly what I was afraid would happen. People going "Herr. My best skill is acrobatics. I decide to tumble down the hallway as we go exploring."
If you want to allow that in your game, you can of course go for it. But the game isn't balanced around everyone getting to use their best skill for initiative. It also completely makes the in game fiction make absolutely no sense and it starts to veer the game from an RPG into a tabletop wargame.
But you are of course entitled to do whatever you want with your game. The above is just the consequence of being too lenient. I would personally allow stealth and perception and that's it.
The lesson I learned from reading the CRB is that whatever the PCs are doing during Exploration mode will often determine the skill used for initiative when you suddenly switch to Encounter mode.
I'm just not sure I agree with that. Just because you're in a tavern performing on your musical instrument when a fight breaks out doesn't (in my opinion) mean the most appropriate thing to determine your initiative is your perform skill. Maybe, under certain circumstances it could be, but generally speaking I still think it's a no.
Of course, that example doesn't really follow Exploration mode rules for listed exploration activities.
But I would add that I hardly think an Arcana skill check for init is appropriate just because you happen to be studying your spell book when assassins break into your room.
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No, initiative definitely doesn't ALWAYS change to a skill you were using. It changes to a skill you were using, when it makes sense to do so.
Perform for initiative because you were performing? No, roll perception.
Perform for initiative, that one time that you planned this out, your performance was the distraction to help the rogue get in position, and everyone knows that the start of the second chorus is the "go" signal? Sounds great!
My takeaway with the system is that almost any skill might be viable for initiative in specific enough circumstances, but because that expansiveness is based on judgement
there's no reason to either attempt gaming the system excessively, by doing things that don't make sense, just to be using a skill, and there is no reason to allow it to work, as the GM.
Well, if there's a Dance Off, you should most certainly be using Perform for initiative! (Thankfully, Ronan was untrained, saving the galaxy.)
Sometimes initiative isn't for combat. Encounter mode might be in a social situation. Likely not most, but one where timing and reacting to one another happen in quick sequence. Maybe in-party to figure out if you were able to stop the Barbarian (or more likely overly honest Paladin) from blurting out the wrong thing.
That'd likely be Diplomacy, Society, a Lore particular to the people involved, or Perception, perhaps with any Sense Motive bonuses you might have.
As Hammerjack stated, lots of skills might be viable. It's whether they're reasonably justified, not just desired.
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Perform for initiative because you were performing? No, roll perception.
Perform for initiative, that one time that you planned this out, your performance was the distraction to help the rogue get in position, and everyone knows that the start of the second chorus is the "go" signal? Sounds great!
Awesome example! I'll steal it to make things clear for my group.