Advice on Rogue / Monk Build


Advice


Hi, I'm currently working on a build for a Unchained Monk/Rogue build.
Here is what I have for now:

The Shady Monk

If you have any advice to help optimize this build feel free to tell me.

P.S.:I can use pretty much any official Paizo resources for the build.


Medusa's Wrath doesn't work with Flurry of Blows. I think you should pick 1 or the other.

I normally think of Monk as being either a single class character that you just go with or a dip you take to get something you want.

Fox Style is a good choice for a Sneak Attack Character.

Crane Style is okay.

You don't need any levels in Monk to get 1 Style Feat. You can take the Rogue Talent Ninja Trick, and take Style Master. Another Ninja Trick I'm very fond of is Vanishing Trick. As a Swift Action, you can use the Vanish Spell, then use Stealth to stay hidden. Take the Rogue Talent False Attacker, that will let you strike from the shadows without breaking stealth.

Take 3 levels in Monk, and be a Drunken Master, so you can replenish your Ki endlessly by Drinking. If you are a Core Monk instead of an Unchained one, you can get Still Mind at level 3 which qualifies you for Monastic Legacy, which will allow your Monk Unarmed Strike Base Damage to Increase through your levels in Rogue. You can't do that as a Drunken Master, though: Drunken Masters don't get Still Mind. But the hide and strike from the shadows thing would work great with Ninja Vanishing Trick, False Attacker, Fox Style, and Medusa's Wrath.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Medusa's Wrath doesn't work with Flurry of Blows. I think you should pick 1 or the other.

I normally think of Monk as being either a single class character that you just go with or a dip you take to get something you want.

Fox Style is a good choice for a Sneak Attack Character.

Crane Style is okay.

You don't need any levels in Monk to get 1 Style Feat. You can take the Rogue Talent Ninja Trick, and take Style Master. Another Ninja Trick I'm very fond of is Vanishing Trick. As a Swift Action, you can use the Vanish Spell, then use Stealth to stay hidden. Take the Rogue Talent False Attacker, that will let you strike from the shadows without breaking stealth.

Take 3 levels in Monk, and be a Drunken Master, so you can replenish your Ki endlessly by Drinking. If you are a Core Monk instead of an Unchained one, you can get Still Mind at level 3 which qualifies you for Monastic Legacy, which will allow your Monk Unarmed Strike Base Damage to Increase through your levels in Rogue. You can't do that as a Drunken Master, though: Drunken Masters don't get Still Mind. But the hide and strike from the shadows thing would work great with Ninja Vanishing Trick, False Attacker, Fox Style, and Medusa's Wrath.

Why does Medusa's Wrath doesn't work with flurry of blows?

And because of my Monk Archtype I don't get Still Mind, instead a better version of Improved Feint at first level and basicly Greater feint at 6th. Also I'm using both unchained class specially because the core Monk flurry of blows really doesn't work well with multiclassing since it use my Monk BAB instead of just giving me extra attacks.


Medusa's Wrath works with FoB. The feat triggers on full-attacks, and FoB is a full-attack.

Any particular reason you've taken the Guerrilla archetype?
Cover of Night is pretty strong if you can force Dim Light/Darkness and have some other way of achieving concealment other than light conditions since most enemies have darkvision. But it's not that good at higher levels since everything and their mother starts to walk around with blindsight/truesight.


Saradock Greenhand wrote:
Why does Medusa's Wrath doesn't work with flurry of blows?

Actually, I was mostly mistaken. I was thinking that the Flurry of Blows was a different Full Round Action that the Full Attack Action, but reviewing the material, I see that FOB is a kind of Full Attack Action.

Still, normally, you must have used Gorgon's Fist before you use Medusa's Wrath, which is a Standard Action. You must have used Scorpion Style before you have used Gorgon's Fist, which is another Standard Action. Those definitely can't be used with FoB.

Saradock Greenhand wrote:
And because of my Monk Archtype I don't get Still Mind

I'm not sure which is better: you should consider a different Archetype that gives you Still Mind for a few reasons:

Still Mind is good. It gives you a +2 on saving throw vs. Mind Effects. Unchained Monks have Poor Will Saves, and that's the most important Saving Throw there is. All kinds of Rogue have Poor Will Saves, too.

Also, normally, only Monk levels improve your Monk Unarmed Strike Damage. Monastic Legacy allows 1/2 your nonmonk Levels to count as Monk Levels with respect to Unarmed Strike Damage. I know your character will mostly do damage through Sneak Attacking, but it's worth considering diversifying: high Base Damage AND Sneak Attack Damage.

Saradock Greenhand wrote:
core Monk flurry of blows really doesn't work well with multiclassing since it use my Monk BAB instead of just giving me extra attacks.

That's fair. Core Monk Flurry of Blows will continue to increase along with your Base Attack Bonus in any event, but since you are thinking of being a Rogue/Monk and not a Fighter/Monk, you will definitely end up with fewer attacks with FOB than with single-classing Core Monk.


Your Fox Style Feats grant lots of +4 bonuses when your Intelligence is 19. It would be a shame if you can't get your intelligence there.

If your goal is Dex-to-Damage and use Bluff to lock in Sneak Attack Damage, it would make more sense, I think, to make your Strength 8 and your Charisma 10. Then make your Charisma higher than 10!

And since your character is Strength-Dumping and going for Dex-to-Damage + Weapon Finesse, maybe it would be better to get those sooner than later and get those 3 levels in Rogue first, then develop as a Monk.

Which Minor Magic are you using?

Cover of Night is cool, but I noticed your character is a Human, so you don't have Darkvision. How are you sorting that out?

It looks like Bluff is the only method you have for achieving Sneak Attack Damage, and that seems like a problem. I always prefer to have a good 2 or 3 different means of locking in the Sneak Attack Damage.

You should take a look at the Feats Sap Adept and Knockout Artist. Each gives a +1 Damage per Sneak Attack Damage Die. It does mean doing nonlethal Damage, but it is kind of a lot of Damage.

Sap Master actually doubles your nonlethal Sneak Attack Damage Dice, but that only works if you have your opponent properly Flatfooted, not just denied his Dex Mod to AC. That would mean taking Dazzling Display (the prereq), Shatter Defenses, and maybe Cornugeon Smash to deliver Shatter Defenses. That would involve taking your character in a different direction. Tough call. Your call.

Your character is a good candidate for the Accomplished Sneak Attacker Feat. It gives your an extra +1d6.

Consider the Rogue Talents: False Attacker, Honeyed Words, and Coax Information. They all work off of Bluff, and it looks like you are emphasizing Bluff.

If you dipped a level in the Living Monolith Prestige Class, you could Enlarge as a Swift Action. That would increase your Base Damage and your Reach by 5', and that means Attacks of Opportunity. It would require taking Iron Will, which would not go amiss, since it looks like your character needs Will Save help. Enlarge Person does lower your Dex by 2 for the Duration, and that is bad for your character. Again, tough call and your call.


So, in your combiniation of Monk/Rogue, you seem to have decided to be a Monk with some levels in Rogue. Tell us why.

How would you feel if you had a character that was mostly a Rogue with a few levels in Monk?

Or is what you want most? Optimization, never mind how?

What is it that you like most about being a Monk?

What is it that you like most about being a Rogue?

What is it that you like most about being a Human?

I have advice that might stray from any or all of these things, but I am lacking 1 major qualification in giving you the advice that will lead to your maximum happiness: I'm not you.

My approach to character building is different from most people's, I think. Most people seem to be thinking, "How do I make an awesome Fighter?" I think, "Hey this combination of Feats, Spells, and Class Abilities is pretty cool, how do I work it in?"

I have a character build that uses some of your ideas. It has some levels in Monk, some in Rogue, but I made it along particular principles that may or may not work for you.

So, what do you prioritize most?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Still, normally, you must have used Gorgon's Fist before you use Medusa's Wrath, which is a Standard Action. You must have used Scorpion Style before you have used Gorgon's Fist, which is another Standard Action. Those definitely can't be used with FoB.

I don't know why, but I thought Medusa Wrath would proc with my feint. I just re-read the feint and realize it doesn't. Guess it give me 3 open slot for feat xD.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Still Mind is good. It gives you a +2 on saving throw vs. Mind Effects. Unchained Monks have Poor Will Saves, and that's the most important Saving Throw there is. All kinds of Rogue have Poor Will Saves, too.

I totally agree with you that Still mind is Super-Good, but here is the reason why I have this archtype:

Feinting Flurry (Ex):

When using flurry of blows to make melee attacks, a brazen disciple can forgo his first attack to attempt a Bluff check to feint. At 6th level, when a brazen disciple successfully feints, his opponent is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of the monk’s turn.

This ability replaces the monk’s bonus feats at 1st level and at 6th level.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Also, normally, only Monk levels improve your Monk Unarmed Strike Damage. Monastic Legacy allows 1/2 your nonmonk Levels to count as Monk Levels with respect to Unarmed Strike Damage. I know your character will mostly do damage through Sneak Attacking, but it's worth considering diversifying: high Base Damage AND Sneak Attack Damage.

I see that Monastic Legacy can be pretty awsome, but since I only take 4 level as Rogue is it really worth it a feat slot? I mean it's two extra level of unarmed damage. How is it compared to other option I'd have?(This is an actual question I have no clue if it's worth)

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Your Fox Style Feats grant lots of +4 bonuses when your Intelligence is 19. It would be a shame if you can't get your intelligence there.

Might be a good idea, how would I get that much Int tho? maybe a headband buffing int and wis?

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Your character is a good candidate for the Accomplished Sneak Attacker Feat. It gives your an extra +1d6.

I Love that Feat, I can't belive I didn't found it before.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
You should take a look at the Feats Sap Adept and Knockout Artist. Each gives a +1 Damage per Sneak Attack Damage Die. It does mean doing nonlethal Damage, but it is kind of a lot of Damage.

Those two looks amazing on the build, and I have open feat slot.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, in your combiniation of Monk/Rogue, you seem to have decided to be a Monk with some levels in Rogue. Tell us why.

I always had a sweet spot for the monk, but I wouldn't mind having more rogue than mok on this build.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, what do you prioritize most?

Having an evasive melee character, using FoB and sneak attack. I really like the idea of using feait to lock in the sneak attack damage.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

What is it that you like most about being a Monk?

What is it that you like most about being a Rogue?
What is it that you like most about being a Human?

Monk: I like to have to be an evasive melee character and I like the concept of the Ki and FoB.

Rogue: Mainly for the sweet sneak attack damage and Dex to attack and Damage help a lot with the idea of an evasive character

Human: I pretty much don't mind the race that much, I'm allowed to play any core or featured race exept the aasimar. (Tiefling Heritage are allowed)


Saradock Greenhand wrote:
I see that Monastic Legacy can be pretty awsome, but since I only take 4 level as Rogue is it really worth it a feat slot? I mean it's two extra level of unarmed damage. How is it compared to other option I'd have?(This is an actual question I have no clue if it's worth)

It isn't worth it if you are only taking 4 levels in Rogue. It might be worthwhile if you decided to be a Rogue with some levels in Monk rather than a Monk with some levels in Rogue.


Saradock Greenhand wrote:
I always had a sweet spot for the monk, but I wouldn't mind having more rogue than mok on this build.... Monk: I like to have to be an evasive melee character and I like the concept of the Ki and FoB.

I recently posted a build that is more Rogue than Monk. He doesn't use Flurry of Blows, but he is a very evasive melee character. Meet BONZAI!! .

This character gets multiple attacks from Panther and Snake Style. He locks in Sneak Attack Damage from Improved Feint and Snake Feint, also from Flanking aided by Dimensional Slide.

I'm using some of the ideas you are using, but it's a radically different character from yours, but that doesn't necessarily make it better, but you might find ideas you like in it.

But it does occur to me that you could get multiple attacks through Attacks of Opportunity instead of Full Attacking, then focus on accumulating Sneak Attack Damage, which can result in more Damage, if your opponents are vulnerable to SA Damage in the first place. Of course, one of the things they changed when made Pathfinder from DnD 3.5 is that they made a lot more things susceptible to Precision Damage.


Saradock Greenhand wrote:
Human: I pretty much don't mind the race that much, I'm allowed to play any core or featured race exept the aasimar. (Tiefling Heritage are allowed)

So, how about Tengu? It occurs to me that you can get more Attacks/round with a Natural Attack approach than you can ever get with a FoB approach. And once you have a few ways to get your Sneak Attack Damage, then you can accumulate massive Damage/Attack through Sneak Attack multiplied by your many attacks.

Tengu get a Bite Attack. 2 Claw Attacks are Available as an Alternative Racial Trait. You can get a Gore Attack as a Barbarian Rage Power or through either of 2 magic items: the Animal Mask or the Helm of the Mammoth Lord. You can dip a level in White Haired Witch and get a Hair Attack. So that's 3 Attacks at level 1. 5 Attacks by level 3 if you are impatient.

If you take Quick Dirty Tricks, you can Blind your opponents as one of your Attacks, and if you run into an opponent with Blindsight or something, you can play another Dirty Trick to make them Deaf, too: that should do for them. Improved Dirty Tricks can be taken as a Rogue Talent: Under handed Trick.

Take Gang Up, and you will have an easier time Flanking. Dip a level in Arcanist and take Dimensional Slide, and you will have an even easier time Flanking, plus you can use Magic Wands without needing Use Magical Device, wands such as Greater Invisibility and Disguise Self.

For a build like this, you can still get Dex-to-Damage, but it's much less effective, since each of your Natural Attacks is a different weapon, and that means you shouldn't Strength Dump favor of Dex. It might not matter that much, since your Damage will come mostly from Sneak Attacking, not an Ability Mod.

Of course, this is a completely different approach to a character, and you wouldn't be the first to be uncomfortable with it.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, how about Tengu?

As I said, I don't mind that much of the race. So why not

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Attacks/round with a Natural Attack approach than you can ever get with a FoB approach

I know how devastating Natural Attack build can be, specially at low-level (got an Abyssal Bloodrager in my party, HE'S A MONSTER), but I would really prefer limiting the multicalss to 2 class (main class + other class), because my GM might cringe a little if I come at the table with a 3 or 4 class build...


Saradock Greenhand wrote:
my GM might cringe a little if I come at the table with a 3 or 4 class build...

Oh dear, BONZAI!! has 7 classes! Your GM would lock himself in the closet if you brought Bonzai to the table!

3 Classes is actually Old School. One of the most common characters to play in 1st Edition was an Elven Fighter/Magic User/Thief.

Still, you know your GM best.

Saradock Greenhand wrote:
As I said, I don't mind that much of the race. So why not [Tengu?]

A single class Tengu can have 3 Natural Attacks: 2 Claws and a Bite. The Gore could be gotten via a Wondrous Item instead of a dip: Helm of the Mammoth Lord or Animal Mask, but the Hair Attack comes through another dip. There are other way to get more Attacks with no more dipping. I could confidently get you up to 8.

Saradock Greenhand wrote:
Monk: I like to have to be an evasive melee character and I like the concept of the Ki and FoB.

And do you really prefer to Full Attack, or how do you feel about running around the battlefield getting multiple attacks through Movement, like being a Monk, Master of Many Styles getting Free Action Attacks and lots of Attacks of Opportunity?

A Panther-Snake Monk would, if anything, be even more evasive than a FoB Monk, and Panther/Snake Style would work well in conjunction with Scorpion Style, but if you really like FoB, you should use it, and I should help you.

If you really like Ki Powers, you should take the Quinngong Archetype. Quingong is an Archetype you can pretty much take in addition to any other Archetype, and they give you lots of other optional Ki Powers.


Saradock Greenhand wrote:
I totally agree with you that Still mind is Super-Good

It's less than a trait. It's nice to have, but I sure wouldn't call it "super-good".

Saradock Greenhand wrote:
I see that Monastic Legacy can be pretty awsome, but since I only take 4 level as Rogue is it really worth it a feat slot? I mean it's two extra level of unarmed damage. How is it compared to other option I'd have?(This is an actual question I have no clue if it's worth)

The feat is total crap, Scott Wilhelm is just utterly in love with it for completely irrational reasons.

A +2 increase in effective levels would not only do nothing half the time, on average throughout levels 7-20 it would grant an increase of +0.83 damage, which makes the feat notably worse then even a trait. Not that taking more levels in non-monk would really help, at least not until rather high level, ~16th) - unless you're enlarged most combats, the math just doesn't work out.

Saradock Greenhand wrote:
Rogue: Mainly for the sweet sneak attack damage and Dex to attack and Damage help a lot with the idea of an evasive character

What you have to realise is that Sneak Attack is only bonus damage, and very situational at that. Sure, you can use Feinting Flurry, but relinquishing attacks for bonus damage is kinda contradictorily, don't you think?

Dex-based Monk would be possible without Rogue levels, by either relying on bonus damage (Jabbing Master), or by using an Agile AoMF. Single class Monk not only has earlier Improved Evasion, but also is much better at moving around the battlefield thanks to Flying Kick - a Rogue is actually a very static character (unless you have stuff like Circling Mongoose). Maybe it's just me, but I just don't see a character who can't combine movement and full attacks as agile.

You wouldn't need multiple classes for a bunch of natural attacks, as those can come from either race (Scott has explained tengu), or a single class (especially Shifter - Weretouched Shifter can get 5 primary natural attacks plus pounce at 4th level, at which point you could just go full out Rogue, possibly Scout).


Derklord wrote:
The feat is total crap, Scott Wilhelm is just utterly in love with it for completely irrational reasons.

Well so much for that projected hostility being in my imagination crap!

Pursuant to the OP's request, I was asking Saradock about whether they particularly preferred a Monk that has some Rogue levels, or if they would consider a Rogue build that has some Monk levels. My advice to get Still Mind and Monastic Legacy is contingent upon deciding to have a Rogue character that takes a few levels in Monk.

Derklord wrote:
A +2 increase in effective levels

So, it would not be an increase in 2 levels, but in many more because I am only advising doing that if the OP were only dipping in Monk and emphasizing Rogue instead of what they are now doing.

I said this already on this thread.

I wrote:
It isn't worth it if you are only taking 4 levels in Rogue. It might be worthwhile if you decided to be a Rogue with some levels in Monk rather than a Monk with some levels in Rogue.

What you need to realize, Derklord, is that I am such an incredibly sophisticated thinker, that in order to reply intelligently to my posts, you need to actually read my posts. You are taking my comments out-of-context in a gross misrepresentation of the truth.

Derklord wrote:
What you have to realise is that Sneak Attack is only bonus damage, and very situational at that. Sure, you can use Feinting Flurry, but relinquishing attacks for bonus damage is kinda contradictorily, don't you think?

Well then, in that case, it would be prudent, if the OP wanted to have melee unarmed Rogue build then they should have some other way to inflict more damage, perhaps to increase the base Unarmed Strike Damage, you know, like Monastic Legacy?

Even so, your notions that Sneak Attack Damage being "very situational" is kind of true, but mostly wrong. There aren't that many things that are immune to Precision Damage: Oozes and Incorporeal Undead, and I can think of maybe some tricks. And while it is true you need to have your opponent Flanked, Flatfooted, or Denied Dex Mod to AC, there are actually a lot of ways of achieving those things.

If you have only a high Acrobatics Check, you can put yourself into a Flanking position with little risk to yourself, and the build I posted for consideration actually gains bonus attacks by moving out of Threatened Squares (Panther Style Feats), so not even that is really necessary.

The Gang Up Feat makes it very easy to achieve Flanking.

A dip in Arcanist can give you a tactical teleport that also makes it easy to achieve Flanking. It also lets you use Magic Wands such as a Wand of Greater Invisibility, which also locks in your Sneak Attack Damage.

The OP is using Feinting Flurry: that works.

My build uses Improved Feint + Snake Feint. That also works, although not so much for Flurry of Blows or Full Attacking. The build I put that in moves around the battlefield a lot, so doesn't really Full Attack.

Dirty Tricks is great for locking in Sneak Attack Damage: makes your opponents Blind. If you run into a creature with Blindsight, it can make the Deaf, too, and then you still get your Sneak Attack Damage. With Quick Dirty Trick, the OP could use Dirty Tricks as part of a Flurry. With Greater Dirty Trick, it would last several rounds.

You can use Ninja Vanishing Trick to turn Invisible as a Swift Action, then you get your Sneak Attack Damage.

You can take 3 levels in Bard with the Flame Dancer Archetype, then get an Eversmoking Bottle. The smoke from the Eversmoking Bottle makes everybody Blind. Song of Fiery Gaze gives you and your allies the ability to see through the smoke.

Shatter Defenses makes your opponent Flatfooted.

So, maybe Sneak Attack Damage is situational, but if you know what you are doing, you can create your own situations.

Now a lot of these things involve multiclass dips that make the OP uncomfortable or work better for a different build from what the OP was thinking, but not all of them do. And much of this has been discussed already.

It seems like you are suggesting that the OP abandon levels in Rogue and just be an Unchained Monk. That might be the OP's best course of action.

But you should really keep your personal remarks to yourself.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Derklord wrote:
The feat is total crap, Scott Wilhelm is just utterly in love with it for completely irrational reasons.
Well so much for that projected hostility being in my imagination crap!

The feat is crap, and you are "utterly in love with it for completely irrational reasons." It's not hostility, it's the honest truth. The OP posted a build with but four levels off-Monk, and yet you're still advertising the feat. I have seen that you mitigated that statement later on, but the fact stands that you're shilling something that does not help the OP as he envisioned his character. If you aren't in love with the feat, why do you propose it so often, even when the discussed build can't make it work (including a Scaled Fist thread)? And it can't possibly be rational reasons, because the numbers simply don't work out.

If your suggestion only makes sense after a major rework of the character, you need to be honest about that upfront. It should also be noted that no matter how you change the levels, the earliest the feat is more than a +1 average damage is 13th level. And unless you're cMonk (which carries a -2 penalty on attack rolls, somethign you always seem to ignore), you need either even more level, or lots of Monk levels, for the feat to grant more than +1 average damage.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, it would not be an increase in 2 levels, but in many more because I am only advising doing that if the OP were only dipping in Monk and emphasizing Rogue instead of what they are now doing.

Your ego might not allow you to accept that you aren't the center of every discussion, but I wasn't talking to you! The statement was addressed to the OP (which you could have deduced from the fact that I quoted him), who asked whether "since I only take 4 level as Rogue is it really worth it a feat slot". Do you see that question? Since you made a pitch for the feat in response to a build with only four off-levels, the OP is actually talking about using the feats under those circumstances, because he doesn't know your tendency to shoehorn your pet concepts into every thread you can find, even if it's not actually fitting for the threat. This is exactly why I chose very clear words to address the issue - you are misleading people.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Well then, in that case, it would be prudent, if the OP wanted to have melee unarmed Rogue build then they should have some other way to inflict more damage, perhaps to increase the base Unarmed Strike Damage, you know, like Monastic Legacy?

It would be prudent... if it were a good suggestion. But it isn't.


Derklord wrote:
you are "utterly in love with it for completely irrational reasons." It's not hostility, it's the honest truth.

You don't know who I am. You don't know anything about my ideas of love. You are not capable of making truthful statements about me in love. You need to stop verbally abusing me.

Derklord wrote:
Your ego might not allow you to accept that you aren't the center of every discussion, but I wasn't talking to you!

The thread was going on for nearly a week without you. Literally the 2nd sentence you made in your own voice was to call me out by name and call my advice crap. I know I am not the center of every discussion, but I am clearly the center of yours, here!

Derklord wrote:
he doesn't know your tendency to shoehorn your pet concepts into every thread you can find,

How do you know whether I "shoehorn [my] pet concepts into every thread I can find?" Okay, here you are publicly admitting to stalking me on the forums for the purposes of verbally abusing me. Please stop.

Derklord wrote:
If your suggestion only makes sense after a major rework of the character, you need to be honest about that upfront.

I was honest about that upfront!

I wrote:
I normally think of Monk as being either a single class character that you just go with or a dip you take to get something you want.

That was the 2nd sentence I wrote on this thread! Things don't get much more upfront than that. They can get 1 sentence more upfront. 1 comes before 2; by 1.

And even I had omitted that statement from the start, the fact still remains that the context of my advice was clarified, discussed, and settled for a full day before you came onto this thread to criticize my advice and insult me personally.

Derklord wrote:
not help the OP as he envisioned his character

I've been asking the OP what they envisioned for their character! I've been asking how severe a revision of the character they are willing to consider. I've been responding to what the OP has been saying. Have you understood a single thing I've written?

Derklord wrote:
yet you're still advertising the feat

I'm not "advertising the Feat! I'm giving lots of advice about lots of different ways for the OP to develop their ideas. Monastic Legacy was one of them: contingent upon a particular direction the OP might take their build.

I wrote:
it's worth considering diversifying

That's not a very hard sell!

In the same post where I brought up Monastic Legacy, I also brought up Drunken Master, and Drunken Masters cannot take Monastic legacy.

I wrote:

Another Ninja Trick I'm very fond of is Vanishing Trick. As a Swift Action, you can use the Vanish Spell, then use Stealth to stay hidden. Take the Rogue Talent False Attacker, that will let you strike from the shadows without breaking stealth.

Take 3 levels in Monk, and be a Drunken Master, so you can replenish your Ki endlessly by Drinking.
Derklord wrote:
you are misleading people

You are the one here who is making false statements for the purpose of attacking someone else personally. And you just said you have been gathering information on me through multiple threads in order to do it. I'm pretty sure that what you are doing is literally illegal, and it definitely violates Paizo Community Guidelines.


Derklord wrote:
It should also be noted that no matter how you change the levels, the earliest the feat is more than a +1 average damage is 13th level.

I don't really understand what you are getting at here. You are comparing what to what?

Remember the context of my suggested alternative: to develop the OP's character as more of a Rogue and less of a Monk. Monk Unarmed Strike Damage goes up by your +1 like every 4 levels? That's mostly true.

But Sneak Attack Damage goes up by +3.5 every 2 levels.

And remember my advice about Monastic Legacy is not about maximization: it's about diversification--increasing damage not just through Sneak Attack, but also through Base Damage--so your only-+1-arguments are probably not to the point.

Another thing to consider is the middle, not just the end. When I build a character, and when I advise other people on building characters, I try to envision what it's like to be playing the character at every level, not just what the character will be like at level 20. So sometimes, I do advise a player to get something sooner rather than hold out for more later.

If you take 3 levels in Monk and take Monastic Legacy, then in only takes 4 levels in Rogue to bring your Monk Unaremd Strike Damage up to 1d8. One of my "pet concepts" I like "to shoehorn in" is Size Increases, both actual and virtual. On this thread, I specifically mentioned Living Monolith. So, at level 9, while Enlarged, this character will have a Base Damage of 2d6, and also do 2d6 Sneak Attack Damage.

One of the problems with Enlarge Person is that the character takes -2 to Dex, but that is less of a problem with the OP's character since Saradock is relying on Bluff to lock in Sneak Attack Damage, and Bluff builds on Charisma, not Dexterity. EP creates other problems, though: the OP is thinking Weapon Finesse and Dex-to-Damage, so that will result in a -2 to Attack and -1 Damage on top of the increased Damage Dice from 1d8 to 2d6. So, maybe do that later when the Damage Dice are better, maybe don't do Dex-to-Damage while Enlarged; also, it would mean 1 fewer Attack of Opportunity if they go in that direction, but bear in mind that it does look like the OP's Will Save is poor, and Living Monolith requires Iron Will, and the OP looks like they need it.

I'm considering complicated things, and I think I've been communicating that all along.

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