Errata: Mutagenist Research field literally does nothing


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How about something simple like "due to you constantly imbibing your own creations, there is always some residual mutagen floating around in your system, you can for one action and no reagent cost, activate the properties of a mutagen you already know"

Whilst it might step on the toes of "Perpetual Infusions", I think a player could tailor those choice towards their party members.

Maybe no reagent cost is a little broken, well, just an idea off the top of my head really.


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Kinda works like an alchemical version of- STOP THE PRESS I GOT IT

Mutagenist:
You gain access to the Residual Mutagen action.

Residual Mutagen [>>]
Frequency once per day
Requirements You haven't acted yet on your turn
You collect the residual energies running through your system. You gain the effects of a mutagen you already drank this day, as if you drank a new dose.


I think the temp hit point one should def be a class feat. Free reuses of mutagen is nice, almost functions like a focus pool.


Ediwir wrote:

Kinda works like an alchemical version of- STOP THE PRESS I GOT IT

Mutagenist:
You gain access to the Residual Mutagen action.

Residual Mutagen [>>]
Frequency once per day
Requirements You haven't acted yet on your turn
You collect the residual energies running through your system. You gain the effects of a mutagen you already drank this day, as if you drank a new dose.

I like this idea. It is similar to the Wizard Drain Bonded item ability that lets them recall a spell they already cast. It is also simple to add, and is pretty well balanced (giving a slight edge in the action economy once per day).

Adding an item bonus is problematic, and ends up allowing Alchemists to break the +4 limit of other crafted items that the system uses to balance items.

The two ideas I submitted above were intended to be direct replacements for abilities that don't work rather than class enhancements. The Mutagenist was built to have better unarmed abilities than the other Alchemists and to be slightly better at using Mutagens than other Alchemists, and that is what my two replacements did. (I did not note, but probably should have, that the replacement of unarmed training with unarmed weapon specialization while under the effect of a Mutagen, makes the Mutagenist better with the Major Bestial Mutagen than the other Alchemists).

I realize my fixes and some of the others strongly lead to one kind of Mutagenist, but each Alchemist was seemingly built to primarily help fill one niche in the Party: Mutagenists for melee, Bombers for ranged, and Chirugeons for healing. This could be changed, but it would be a major revision of the class that would in all likelihood delay us getting an acceptable errata, which will come quickest if it makes the least changes to the overall class and requires the least amount of playtesting to implement.

Temporary hit points seem to be a popular fix as well, and maybe instead of Residual Mutagen letting you get a free action use of a Mutagen you already took, it instead metabolizes a previously drunk mutagen and gives you temporary hit points equal to the item level of the Mutagen plus your Int bonus (Or maybe Con bonus) for one minute.

Happy Gaming...


Follow-on to my last post...

I realized Residual Mutagen was intended to an action and not be a free action.

Looking at what each Research Filed gives the alchemist, I've reconsidered this as a class ability (unless all of the Research Fields get a new ability in a later class update).

I think Residual Mutagen is a great Level 1 Feat. For a combat Mutagenist, I think it would be better than the other class feats available, and if you are not creating a combat focused Mutagenist, you are not pigeonholed by another ability that pushes you that way.

Also, if this is a level 1 ability/feat, my idea of Item level + ability modifier is too high. By comparison, the 2nd level spell False Life is very similar and grants 6 HP plus spell casting ability mod temp HP for 8 hours.

Given it is level 1, I'd probably change it to 5 + the Mutagenists' Int Mod with a duration of one hour. Thematically, its meant to be a boost that burns some residual alchemical concoctions still in your system (so a shorter duration). You also don't have to provide any reagents.

Also, there would be some overlap between Residual Mutagen ability/feat and the Level 2 Revivifying Mutagen Alchemist Feat:

"While under the effect of a mutagen, you can metabolize that mutagen’s power to heal yourself. This uses a single action, which has the concentrate and manipulate traits. Once the action is complete, you regain 1d6 Hit Points for every 2 item levels of the mutagen (minimum 1d6), but the mutagen’s duration immediately ends, even if you are under the effect of Persistent Mutagen."

If we were to use the original version of Residual Mutagen, the Mutagenist could metabolize a current mutagen for one action, heal, and use Residual Mutagen to immediately restart the mutagen for another action. This is not bad, it takes two actions which could have been use to draw and drink an Elixer, it's just something to think about.

If we were to use the temporary hit points version, then the Mutagenist could metabolize their current mutagen, heal, and then use Residual Mutagen to gain temp HP for another action. Given their general melee weakness, this may end up being a better option for a combat focused Mutagenist then just getting an mutagen back. And, actually they could use it while remaining under the effect of their current mutagen and just slap some temporary HP on themselves with an eye to healing later.

I think I'm leaning toward still using my two replacement abilities for the two original Research abilities that don't work, and adding Residual Mutagen as a feat in its temporary hit points form. Temp hit points don't change the number of items a Mutagenist can create and with a one hour duration it is not an all day ability, so it is useful without being as strong as the second level spell. I like the ability to get back a used mutagen, but on reflection I also like not overlapping with the core Wizard Drain Bonded Item ability, so it stays special to their class. Residual Mutagen would be unique to Alchemists, although not to Mutagenists.

(Note: You could just cook this into the Mutagenist Research Field as a base ability if you want to give them a larger boost, but then I think you would also need to add a similar ability to each of the other Research Fields, which give abilities similar in scope to my revised Research Field abilities and nothing like this, which would likely make the Mutagenist Research Field have better base abilities).

Residual Mutagen (Draft)
Alchemist Feat 1
Requirements You must have consumed a mutagen since your last Rest.
You collect the residual alchemical energies running through your system. You metabolize these residual energies to gain 5+ Int Modifier Temporary Hit Points that last for one hour. This uses a single action, which has the concentrate and manipulate traits.


As an additional note. Mutagenist + that lv 2 mutagen eating feat. Means they can be pretty good at skill monkey moments. Item bonuses for basically any situation.
Spending 1reagent for 3 typeps. Means you can spend like 2 or 3 reagents on mutagen and have 1 or 2 for every kind of situation you're character is skilled in. (Or all of them if you have pathfinder agent dip)

You can immediately end it after via that lv 2 feat (and net a small hp heal). This workrs rather amusingly with pepetual if you chose one that is widely ueful for skill moments.

Presumably, for the pepetual mutagens (andf or higher level longer lasting mutagens) the bonuses/debuffs would apply during exploratory sequences.

Itemb onuses to s kills aren't impossible to get or anything. But I do think that is worth mentioninng.

So whatever replacement or changes take place shouldn't close off the idea of a "skill mutant"
==================

On that draft from the previous post.
If it something like that, I almost would want it to be reaction ability instead. And not last an hour, instead last 1 min or some factor of the mutagen you consumed's duration.
Instead of being a riding "extra hp" effect. and it wouldn't be worth 1 action in a fight itself.
But as a reaction to taking HP damage, it would be quite unique and useful. Also it fits thematically that once your adrenelaine started kicking up it messes with the left over reagents in your body.


Zwordsman wrote:

As an additional note. Mutagenist + that lv 2 mutagen eating feat. Means they can be pretty good at skill monkey moments. Item bonuses for basically any situation.

Spending 1reagent for 3 typeps. Means you can spend like 2 or 3 reagents on mutagen and have 1 or 2 for every kind of situation you're character is skilled in. (Or all of them if you have pathfinder agent dip)

You can immediately end it after via that lv 2 feat (and net a small hp heal). This workrs rather amusingly with pepetual if you chose one that is widely ueful for skill moments.

Presumably, for the pepetual mutagens (andf or higher level longer lasting mutagens) the bonuses/debuffs would apply during exploratory sequences.

Itemb onuses to s kills aren't impossible to get or anything. But I do think that is worth mentioninng.

So whatever replacement or changes take place shouldn't close off the idea of a "skill mutant"
==================

On that draft from the previous post.
If it something like that, I almost would want it to be reaction ability instead. And not last an hour, instead last 1 min or some factor of the mutagen you consumed's duration.
Instead of being a riding "extra hp" effect. and it wouldn't be worth 1 action in a fight itself.
But as a reaction to taking HP damage, it would be quite unique and useful. Also it fits thematically that once your adrenelaine started kicking up it messes with the left over reagents in your body.

Funny thing, I originally had it as a free action that lasted a minute. I made it longer since it is once per day and the False Life Spell is 8 hours. I ended up taking the action cost and traits from the Revivifying Mutagen Feat. Making it a reaction to taking damage may work, too, and further distinguish it from The Revivifying Mutagen Feat. One minute on a reaction seems right, and the reaction is probably better for the Mutagenist then spending a regular action.

Changing it would look like this:

Residual Mutagen (Draft 2)
Alchemist Feat 1
Requirements: You must have consumed a mutagen since your last Rest.
As a reaction to taking damage, you collect the residual mutagenic energies running through your system and metabolize them to gain 5+ Int Modifier Temporary Hit Points that last for one minute.


I would be pretty happy with that myself. It doesn't block off any specific style of combat (melee, ranged, switch hit, caster).
it is universailly useful. It gives the class a reaction which I don't think it has much of.

One consideration would be. How often? Once per min? Or is it once per mutagen (i.e.you can only do it again if you've had another dose).
Off hand. I would attach it to having another dose in your system.
though that is potentially spammable with pepetuals... but so is revivfying. So I think that is fine.

I don't know, off hand, how the game handles temp hp,a nd which is lost first though.


Zwordsman wrote:

I would be pretty happy with that myself. It doesn't block off any specific style of combat (melee, ranged, switch hit, caster).

it is universailly useful. It gives the class a reaction which I don't think it has much of.

One consideration would be. How often? Once per min? Or is it once per mutagen (i.e.you can only do it again if you've had another dose).
Off hand. I would attach it to having another dose in your system.
though that is potentially spammable with pepetuals... but so is revivfying. So I think that is fine.

I don't know, off hand, how the game handles temp hp,a nd which is lost first though.

Reaction abilities/feats seem to generally have immediate effects and very short durations. There are a handful that have one a day limits (i.e., Tricksters Ace (level 18)). None seem to provide Temporary Hit Points, so I think Residual Mutagen would need to be either once per day or not a Reaction feat.

Reusable Temporary Hit Point abilities seem to have higher levels, limited effects, and take an action.

For example, the Renewed Vigor Barbarian 8th level Feat allows the character to take an action while raging to gain Temp Hit Points equal to half their level + Con modifier. These last until they are used or the character takes a Rest. The primary limit is that you have to be raging, but it also has a higher level requirement and an action to use, presumably because it is reusable within the same encounter.

So, if a class feat, Residual Mutagen would probably need additional limits on when it can be re-used, since their is no real penalty for using it outside of the action. Probably the need to have consumed a mutagen since the last time you used the feat, combined with a limited duration such as a minute.

I'll think about it some more...

Happy gaming.

Sovereign Court

LuniasM wrote:
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the suggestion to grant an increased item bonus. The issue I have with that is that it locks them into only gaining increased benefits with mutagens that grant a flat item bonus. For instance, look at Energy Mutagen - it grants Resistance and bonus elemental damage, but neither of those is an item bonus. Or Stone Body Mutagen, which just grants Resistance. I suspect other mutagens will be released that don't follow the same formula as the six from the CRB, and whatever solution we come up with I'd prefer for it to function with any mutagen and not just some of them.

I don't know what mutagens you are talking about. There is nothing called an "Energy Mutagen". It jumps from "Cognitive" to "Juggernaut". There is also no "Stone Body Mutagen", "Silvertongue" is the final one listed in the book. Do you have page numbers and a source for what you are talking about?


Samurai wrote:

I don't know what mutagens you are talking about. There is nothing called an "Energy Mutagen". It jumps from "Cognitive" to "Juggernaut". There is also no "Stone Body Mutagen", "Silvertongue" is the final one listed in the book. Do you have page numbers and a source for what you are talking about?

They're from suppliments after the core book. They're on Nethys (which is the official PRD for P2)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Samurai wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the suggestion to grant an increased item bonus. The issue I have with that is that it locks them into only gaining increased benefits with mutagens that grant a flat item bonus. For instance, look at Energy Mutagen - it grants Resistance and bonus elemental damage, but neither of those is an item bonus. Or Stone Body Mutagen, which just grants Resistance. I suspect other mutagens will be released that don't follow the same formula as the six from the CRB, and whatever solution we come up with I'd prefer for it to function with any mutagen and not just some of them.

I don't know what mutagens you are talking about. There is nothing called an "Energy Mutagen". It jumps from "Cognitive" to "Juggernaut". There is also no "Stone Body Mutagen", "Silvertongue" is the final one listed in the book. Do you have page numbers and a source for what you are talking about?

they're from the fall of plaguestone


Melfast wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:

As an additional note. Mutagenist + that lv 2 mutagen eating feat. Means they can be pretty good at skill monkey moments. Item bonuses for basically any situation.

Spending 1reagent for 3 typeps. Means you can spend like 2 or 3 reagents on mutagen and have 1 or 2 for every kind of situation you're character is skilled in. (Or all of them if you have pathfinder agent dip)

You can immediately end it after via that lv 2 feat (and net a small hp heal). This workrs rather amusingly with pepetual if you chose one that is widely ueful for skill moments.

Presumably, for the pepetual mutagens (andf or higher level longer lasting mutagens) the bonuses/debuffs would apply during exploratory sequences.

Itemb onuses to s kills aren't impossible to get or anything. But I do think that is worth mentioninng.

So whatever replacement or changes take place shouldn't close off the idea of a "skill mutant"
==================

On that draft from the previous post.
If it something like that, I almost would want it to be reaction ability instead. And not last an hour, instead last 1 min or some factor of the mutagen you consumed's duration.
Instead of being a riding "extra hp" effect. and it wouldn't be worth 1 action in a fight itself.
But as a reaction to taking HP damage, it would be quite unique and useful. Also it fits thematically that once your adrenelaine started kicking up it messes with the left over reagents in your body.

Funny thing, I originally had it as a free action that lasted a minute. I made it longer since it is once per day and the False Life Spell is 8 hours. I ended up taking the action cost and traits from the Revivifying Mutagen Feat. Making it a reaction to taking damage may work, too, and further distinguish it from The Revivifying Mutagen Feat. One minute on a reaction seems right, and the reaction is probably better for the Mutagenist then spending a regular action.

Changing it would look like this:

Residual Mutagen (Draft...

I think I've settled on my suggestion for this feat until I get a chance to playtest it:

Residual Mutagen (Draft 3)
Alchemist Feat 1
Requirements: You must have consumed a mutagen since your last Rest.
Once per day as a reaction to taking damage, you collect the residual mutagenic energies running through your system and metabolize them to gain 5+ Int Modifier Temporary Hit Points that last for one minute.

It is unique to Alchemists, requires you to have used a mutagen that day, is a reaction, has a short duration, and can only be used once per day, so it seems like it is not abusive. Essentially, you burn up all the residual mutagens in your bloodstream in one, big moment of adrenaline.

Happy gaming.


Look at the formatting for some reactions. The feat should just say, "You gain the Residual Mutagen reaction." Then the action Stat block should have reaction at the top (the little arrow in the books), Frequency of Once per day, same requirements. As written you need to drink some mutagens before selecting the feat in level up, which doesn't make sense.

As for the feat itself, looks good to me. Lack of scaling is an issue, as those 8-10 HP are hugely important early and then near useless at max level.


Melfast wrote:
Melfast wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:

As an additional note. Mutagenist + that lv 2 mutagen eating feat. Means they can be pretty good at skill monkey moments. Item bonuses for basically any situation.

Spending 1reagent for 3 typeps. Means you can spend like 2 or 3 reagents on mutagen and have 1 or 2 for every kind of situation you're character is skilled in. (Or all of them if you have pathfinder agent dip)

You can immediately end it after via that lv 2 feat (and net a small hp heal). This workrs rather amusingly with pepetual if you chose one that is widely ueful for skill moments.

Presumably, for the pepetual mutagens (andf or higher level longer lasting mutagens) the bonuses/debuffs would apply during exploratory sequences.

Itemb onuses to s kills aren't impossible to get or anything. But I do think that is worth mentioninng.

So whatever replacement or changes take place shouldn't close off the idea of a "skill mutant"
==================

On that draft from the previous post.
If it something like that, I almost would want it to be reaction ability instead. And not last an hour, instead last 1 min or some factor of the mutagen you consumed's duration.
Instead of being a riding "extra hp" effect. and it wouldn't be worth 1 action in a fight itself.
But as a reaction to taking HP damage, it would be quite unique and useful. Also it fits thematically that once your adrenelaine started kicking up it messes with the left over reagents in your body.

Funny thing, I originally had it as a free action that lasted a minute. I made it longer since it is once per day and the False Life Spell is 8 hours. I ended up taking the action cost and traits from the Revivifying Mutagen Feat. Making it a reaction to taking damage may work, too, and further distinguish it from The Revivifying Mutagen Feat. One minute on a reaction seems right, and the reaction is probably better for the Mutagenist then spending a regular action.

Changing it would look like this:

...

seems extremely weak from like level 5 and onwards.

Maybe something like "2*Mutagen level+Int" sounds better balance wise. It starts at 6 which is about the same as a Shield cantrip damage mitigration, and scales approprietly for a "once per day save my butt" reaction.


It should probably scale with the level of the mutagen instead of the alchemist to avoid low level mutagen use to spam hitpoint gain.


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Updated version of the Residual Mutagen Feat

Spells and feats that give temporary hit points seem to be pretty stingy.

So, I have gone back and policed up the formatting a little, and added some slight scaling. This is a level 1 feat, so it shouldn't be too strong compared to other feats, and it is already comparable to the level 2 spell False Life (duration is the biggest difference, but this seems about balanced since you are getting to use the temp hit points exactly when you need them). False Life can be heightened to add +3 Temp Hit Points for each +1 level it is cast at. This feat includes scaling to make it a little better, but keeps this spell in mind. The scaling points are set to when the Mutagenist's perpetual mutagens increase at level 11 and 17.

Residual Mutagen (Reaction) – Alchemist Feat 1 (Draft 4)
Trigger: You are about to take damage
Requirements: You must have consumed a mutagen since your last Rest.
Frequency: Once per day
Effect: You collect the residual mutagenic energies running through your system and metabolize them to gain 5+ Int Modifier Temporary Hit Points that last for one minute. (Increases to 8+ int Modifier at 11th level, and 11+ Int Modifier at 17th level).

Happy gaming...


Another Updated Version of the Residual Mutagen Feat

Ok, reaction feats don't seem to improve in effectiveness by level.

So, options are to play it without escalation (maybe create higher level versions that improve), or increase the times per day you can use it.

This version increases the times per day you can use it.

Residual Mutagen (Reaction) – Alchemist Feat 1 (Draft 5)
Trigger: You are about to take damage
Requirements: You must have consumed a mutagen since your last Rest.
Frequency: Once per day, increases to twice per day at 11th level and to three times per day at 17th level.
Effect: You collect the residual mutagenic energies running through your system and metabolize them to gain 5+ Int Modifier Temporary Hit Points that last for one minute.

I'm happy with that version for now.

Happy gaming...

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