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Oh yeah, this is a big problem.
They could have something like ignore the drawback for the first minute or something like that.
I like the new direction for alchemist. However I think it needs a lot of fix as well as a bunch of options to bring back some of the more common fun stuff 1E alchemists did like get extra arms and tentacles and modifiers to bombs.
Mutagen alchemists need some kind of buff. An AC bonus by default like in 1E and maybe a buff to Athletics since mutagen doesn't give stat boosts anymore. Maybe also eventually maybe at like 5th and 10th half and than remove the drawback from them.
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This has been mentioned before.
To quote my post there:
Yeah, they need to FAQ/Errata in something for 1st level Mutagenists to get.
I suggested either Medium Armor ala Ruffian Rogues or an increased mutagen bonus in the other thread, but however you look at it they need something.
Alchemists in general also have some inconsistencies with Bulk (the PFS version of Fumbus is listed at 4.7, but comes to 6.6 and encumbered when the math is done), but that's hopefully just a typo of some sort.
The Mutagenist thing is a real mechanical problem in need of a solution, though.
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Increase the item bonus from mutagens by 1 when the Mutagenist drinks them. That makes it so that mutagens aren't any better or worse when given to someone else, but it also makes making mutagens for yourself feel like less of a waste of effort.
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Increase the item bonus from mutagens by 1 when the Mutagenist drinks them. That makes it so that mutagens aren't any better or worse when given to someone else, but it also makes making mutagens for yourself feel like less of a waste of effort.
This would be cool since the mutagens seem balanced for martials rather than alchemist chassis. Also people who pick mutagenist kind of wanna kick the ass themselves.
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So far my favorite idea has been Deadman's about granting the alchemist medium armor prof at the same level. It would lend itself to a strength build quite handily since you wouldn't need to focus so much on Dex, but you also wouldn't be quite as squishy.
Buffing the mutagens themselves is also a good idea, I confess I just don't know enough about the system to figure something out that would take up little space and not invalidate later choices, which would require more rewrites in future.
I dislike giving mutagenists medium armor for their research field because researching the properties of mutagens is conceptually unrelated to medium armor. I much prefer giving an extra +1 to the item bonuses, the ability is also useful for mutagenists who specialize in mutagen for skill buffs and is actually related to studying mutagens.
Yep, this needs to be fixed. I like the idea of a mutagen based bonus, but medium armor is nice.
maybe instead of a giving them medium armor, when they drink a mutagen they can choose to gain 2 more bonus from their proficiency but reduce their dexterity cap for AC by 2 as well? except worded closer to mountain stance from monk.
While in Mountain Stance, you gain a +4 status bonus to AC and a +2 circumstance bonus to any defenses against being Shoved or Tripped. However, you have a Dexterity modifier cap to your AC of +0, meaning you don’t add your Dexterity to your AC, and your Speeds are all reduced by 5 feet.
like make it so it doesn't stack with the armor you're wearing but keeps your current proficiencies...?
maybe instead of a giving them medium armor, when they drink a mutagen they can choose to gain 2 more bonus from their proficiency but reduce their dexterity cap for AC by 2 as well? except worded closer to mountain stance from monk.i really don't see why they need more negatives added to their abilities.
they already have plenty of negatives from the mutagens as they are atm.
They already have caster level proficiencies, let them actually gain a bonus and not a tradeoff.
negatives? it's basically free medium armor but isn't actually armor.
as i have tried to show, in my quote, it has a basis in current other mechanics in the game, letting the alchemist make a strength build with low dex but still have good AC. it's essentially not actually a negative anywhere.
Maybe they could raise the proficiency of unarmed strikes for the Monk and the Mutagenist Alchemist to one rank better than they get with simple weapons at any given level?
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I think granting a +1 additional item bonus when mutagenists imbibe a mutagen is the most elegant solution here.
It wouldn't be too powerful, because keep in mind that the alchemist is still an Intelligence based class, so the mutagenist will by more MAD than the bomber or chirurgeon -- the other two research fields can dump str completely, but a mutagenist can't dump dex since they're still stuck with light armor. An added bonus would actually make it worth it for the mutagenist to drink their own combat mutagens, as opposed to feeding it to the melee tank whose higher weapon and armor proficiencies means they'll both make better use out of the bonus and suffer less from the penalty.
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Yeah, I think that's my favorite solution. And super elegant to boot.
It does make them really excellent at Int Skills with the Int Mutagen and, say, Heroism (to the tune of highest bonus anyone can get to any Skill in the game), but that seems pretty reasonable in context.
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maybe instead of a giving them medium armor, when they drink a mutagen they can choose to gain 2 more bonus from their proficiency but reduce their dexterity cap for AC by 2 as well? except worded closer to mountain stance from monk.
While in Mountain Stance, you gain a +4 status bonus to AC and a +2 circumstance bonus to any defenses against being Shoved or Tripped. However, you have a Dexterity modifier cap to your AC of +0, meaning you don’t add your Dexterity to your AC, and your Speeds are all reduced by 5 feet.like make it so it doesn't stack with the armor you're wearing but keeps your current proficiencies...?
This has even closer precedent in the Barbarian feat Animal Skin:
Your proficiency in unarmored defense increases to expert. While you are raging and unarmored, your skin transforms into a thick hide resembling your animal’s skin. You gain a +1 status bonus to AC instead of taking a –1 penalty to AC; if you have the greater juggernaut class feature, this status bonus increases to +2. The thickness of your hide gives you a Dexterity modifier cap to your AC of +3.
So yeah, unarmored armor bonus of +2 with a dex cap of +3. I might even go more aggressive with +3 bonus/+2 cap since Alchemists are Int based and it's harder for them to hit the dexterity cap than a Barbarian.
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maybe instead of a giving them medium armor, when they drink a mutagen they can choose to gain 2 more bonus from their proficiency but reduce their dexterity cap for AC by 2 as well? except worded closer to mountain stance from monk.
While in Mountain Stance, you gain a +4 status bonus to AC and a +2 circumstance bonus to any defenses against being Shoved or Tripped. However, you have a Dexterity modifier cap to your AC of +0, meaning you don’t add your Dexterity to your AC, and your Speeds are all reduced by 5 feet.like make it so it doesn't stack with the armor you're wearing but keeps your current proficiencies...?This has even closer precedent in the Barbarian feat Animal Skin:
Your proficiency in unarmored defense increases to expert. While you are raging and unarmored, your skin transforms into a thick hide resembling your animal’s skin. You gain a +1 status bonus to AC instead of taking a –1 penalty to AC; if you have the greater juggernaut class feature, this status bonus increases to +2. The thickness of your hide gives you a Dexterity modifier cap to your AC of +3.So yeah, unarmored armor bonus of +2 with a dex cap of +3. I might even go more aggressive with +3 bonus/+2 cap since Alchemists are Int based and it's harder for them to hit the dexterity cap than a Barbarian.it has to be a status bonus of +2/3 INSTEAD of the penalty they already gain from bestial to be really comparable. (so a net modifier of +3/4)
but then it becomes weird the moment they don't use bestial but use another mutagen.
hence why i think a blanket +2 status bonus, is just better if they go that route.
it covers all kinds of mutagens.
(although, again, the change i really want to see is "increase item bonus by 1 for the mutagens you consume")
No reason not to just give alchemist a feat called Beastskin Mutagen that works exactly like the Animal Skin barbarian feat, except when the Alchemist is under the effect of Bestial Mutagen rather than raging. Alchemist feats that modify mutagen effects already have tons of precedent.
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The one downside to the +1 to item bonus solution is that it ends up relatively devaluing mutagens that don't give item bonuses.
Right now that's only Energy and Stone Body, but there will probably be more down the line.
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The one downside to the +1 to item bonus solution is that it ends up relatively devaluing mutagens that don't give item bonuses.
Right now that's only Energy and Stone Body, but there will probably be more down the line.
what about this: you can choose either +1 to the mutagen's item bonus, or a +1 to your own AC at the cost of reducing your dexterity cap by 1?
That +1 to AC could also be used to offset the AC penalties many mutagens give you.
The one downside to the +1 to item bonus solution is that it ends up relatively devaluing mutagens that don't give item bonuses.
Right now that's only Energy and Stone Body, but there will probably be more down the line.
Energy and Stone Body don't really have the issues that the +1 suggestion is trying to solve - they're utility elixirs, not math fixers. It's fine for them to be as good for the Alchemist as anyone else, the issue really lies with Bestial and Quicksilver.
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increase item bonus by one or extend duration by one step?
If you don't have Revivifying Mutagen, longer duration Mutagens can be a hindrance. As written, the only way to end a mutagen is to drink another, after which the second tries to counteract the first. Nowhere is it explained how exactly this counteract check is supposed to work, or what proficiency is involved.
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increase item bonus by one or extend duration by one step?If you don't have Revivifying Mutagen, longer duration Mutagens can be a hindrance. As written, the only way to end a mutagen is to drink another, after which the second tries to counteract the first. Nowhere is it explained how exactly this counteract check is supposed to work, or what proficiency is involved.
Maybe the second automatically counteracts the first (like, without needing to roll)?
Either way, if it framed as a choice, the Mutagenicist has the option. Something like:
Research Field: Mutagenicist
Due to your constant experimentation involving your metabolism, you develop a measure of control when under the effects of an alchemical substance. Whenever you imbibe a Mutagen, you may choose to either make the effect more potent, or make the effect last longer or shorter. If you choose the former, increase the item bonus to checks and DCs (if any) by one. If you choose the latter, extend the duration by one step: 1 minute increases to 10 minutes, or 10 minutes increases to 1 hour; 1 hour decreases to 10 minutes or 1 minute, 10 minutes decreases to 1 minute. If you choose the latter option, you must choose the new length upon inbibing.
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I think the better approach is to not try and use an Item bonus. Since they don't stack, there is a chance they will not end up providing any benefit, and they feel like a fiddly patch.
My house rule fix until there is an errata will be:
New wording: "While under the effect of a mutagen you brewed, you gain access to the critical specialization effect for unarmed attacks, and any drawback penalties to saving throws from the mutagen are reduced by one."
This seems to line up with the original intent of enhancing unarmed attacks and making you better at taking mutagens. It reduces only one of the typical penalties. So, it does not lessen the value of the level 20 class ability, and nothing else has to change or interact with it in the game.
My two coppers...
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Not a huge fan of that suggestion. For one, alchemists have bottom tier proficiency scaling, which means they just aren't gonna crit all that often.
More importantly though, that only benefits one type of mutagen. Bestial alchemists are great, but I'm not super big on the idea that that should be the only way to play a mutagenist.
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I think the better approach is to not try and use an Item bonus. Since they don't stack, there is a chance they will not end up providing any benefit, and they feel like a fiddly patch.
My house rule fix until there is an errata will be:
New wording: "While under the effect of a mutagen you brewed, you gain access to the critical specialization effect for unarmed attacks, and any drawback penalties to saving throws from the mutagen are reduced by one."
This seems to line up with the original intent of enhancing unarmed attacks and making you better at taking mutagens. It reduces only one of the typical penalties. So, it does not lessen the value of the level 20 class ability, and nothing else has to change or interact with it in the game.
My two coppers...
What if you use any other mutagen besides a Bestial Mutagen? Then there are no claws to gain a crit specialization for...
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Mitigating the debuffs from using, or increasing any item bonus by 1,
or both, would really be the things that make a mutagenist able to beuilt decently well, giving them a niche, and also not restricting them purely to one "type" of play. Can build a ranged one, a feral one, a weapon guy, or even use it to increase social abilities.Generally an "at level" mutagen will give a bonus of +1 higher than you can usually own. If for a mutagenist its +2, thats effectively a pseudo increase in profiency. Which would help a lot.
How much they debuff is quite a troublesome topic. The debuffs are huge, at all levels really, and the benefit right now isn't great. Combining these two would make it playable.Heck, give them +1 extra bonus on top of the mutagen's benefits, and mitigate the debuffs (who knows, just cut it in half or something thats easily to understand and apply) would make it so a mutagenist would be neat to play. With those changes I'd consider change my debuff bomber, to a mutagenist, who still uses a few bombs and debuffs.
The topic of a mutagenist's mutagens being more useful for allies is a complicated one though. Alchemists are really a support-off martial so they should be able to empower their allies a bit. but thats a hard slip slope to do.
Ok, but we want to keep each type of Alchemist roughly even, not make Bestial the only way to go. So if we increase the item bonus when they take a mutagen and eliminate the Drawback, what should the other Research Fields get? I'm thinking for the Bomber, use Int instead of Dex when throwing bombs if it is an improvement and, since they can eliminate the splash damage, lets also increase it: Everyone in the range of the splash is also treated as the primary target. Then that just leaves the Chirurgeon. Not quite sure what to do there. We could Empower their healing, maybe add the Item bonus to every healing die in their Exixir of Life, and also increase the bonus to Fort checks from Antidote and Antiplaque. We could also double the duration of all their elixirs.
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Myself, I'd ditch the drawback... they are just awful. As for mutagenists, my thought is to give them internal mutagen.
internal mutagen: When using Quick Alchemy to make a mutagen, you may choose brew one dose inside yourself instead of normal. If you do so, the mutagen takes affect without the normal action required.
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Zwordsman:
Drawbacks: IMO, I see no point in them as the mutagen boils down to a +1 over what your expected equipment gives you. IMO, they seem needlessly punitive for no reasons. Having them be strong is actually a plus for me as now they seem unexciting. Getting a +1 for a -2 is a net negative...
Bombers: I'd be fine with that or allow something like a spell attack for attack.
Chirugeon: the only thing going for them really is the prospect of x3 healing per batch... Fixing the ability to just use the alchemy tools and use craft for all medicine related things would work. + int to haling is interesting: not sure about it being a base ability though. Another ability that would help them a lot is the ability to toss healing by treating it as a bomb: this would help a LOT with action economy with the alchemist as a main healer.
perpetual choice: yeah, it's awful. With the duration, you quickly only need 1 or 2 per day so the prospect of an unlimited amount is underwhelming.
Alchemists: for me, I like the basic idea they have for it. That said, I thing it needs a redesign starting with the alchemy items and working it's way up. The items seem lacking at the levels you get them and you spend FAR too long without a 'cantrip' type ability.
Myself, I'd ditch the drawback... they are just awful. As for mutagenists, my thought is to give them internal mutagen.
internal mutagen: When using Quick Alchemy to make a mutagen, you may choose brew one dose inside yourself instead of normal. If you do so, the mutagen takes affect without the normal action required.
Not crazy about the name, but I do like the concept of saving action economy.
What if it was more thematic, like the thematic Mutagen in pop-culture (Mr. Hyde, Hulk)?
"If it is your turn, and you wish to imbibe a mutagen, you may trigger the affect as a Free action. You also gain the "Sudden Mutagen" reaction."
Sudden Mutagen
Trigger: You are the target of an attack, spell, or ability
Benefit: You immediately receive the effects of imbibing a mutagen.
Probably needs to be codified better (not sure how to write the trigger), but action economy is a great offering.
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Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the suggestion to grant an increased item bonus. The issue I have with that is that it locks them into only gaining increased benefits with mutagens that grant a flat item bonus. For instance, look at Energy Mutagen - it grants Resistance and bonus elemental damage, but neither of those is an item bonus. Or Stone Body Mutagen, which just grants Resistance. I suspect other mutagens will be released that don't follow the same formula as the six from the CRB, and whatever solution we come up with I'd prefer for it to function with any mutagen and not just some of them.
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Temporary hit points?
Works for all mutagens, offsets the -1AC, and encourages the alchemist to drink them.
When you drink a mutagen, you gain temporary hit points equal to 5 + twice the item level. These last as long as the Mutagen does. If the mutagen already gives you temporary hit points, these are added together.