Bespell Weapon Timing Question


Rules Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

At first read I got the impression you cast a spell, spend the free action, gain the bonus damage for an attack. However after one of players read it they were thinking of using it as if they ended there last turn with a fireball, next turn they could use it and fire 3 times dealing +1d6 damage each shot.

At first I figured this didn't work but after re-reading it I'm not sure how it was intended to function.

1. The limitations of free actions being used as reactions is that they have a trigger. Bespell weapon only has a Requirement not a trigger.

2. They do meet the requirement as the last action they took was the fireball that ended there turn. Even if that was last turn (there is no call outs to the last action taken this turn).


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As a general rule a "last action you took" thing has to be on the same turn. Otherwise you could Cheese Metamagic in a similar way too.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Edge93 wrote:
As a general rule a "last action you took" thing has to be on the same turn. Otherwise you could Cheese Metamagic in a similar way too.

That would be the bit i was missing. Would you happen to have a page for that.


Lady Melo wrote:
Edge93 wrote:
As a general rule a "last action you took" thing has to be on the same turn. Otherwise you could Cheese Metamagic in a similar way too.
That would be the bit i was missing. Would you happen to have a page for that.

I'm afraid I don't, my memory was from the Playtest so I could potentially be wrong even, but I do know the intent is absolutely for it to have to be on the turn. I'll let you know if I find it in the CRB.


There was a point made that all the spellcasting actions have to be on the same round, i.e. you couldn't start to cast 3-action Magic Missile on round one and finish it on round two.
I believe this applies to metamagic too, so those 3-action spells can only have metamagic if you can get around that hurdle (such as that high level feat some casters have).

My first reading of Bespell Weapon had the same interpretation as yours, but seeing what seems like a loophole.
Shouldn't it be on the same round?

Except it's so obvious and caster/martials have a tough time already so I continue to interpret it that you can cast one round & Bespell the next. I think this partly because this is such a minor boost, leaving the gap between casters & martials still significant.
Thematically & mechanically it seems fine to Bespell Weapon a round later.

I do wonder if it's too much an exploit for a martial w/ MCD & some good focus spells. Hmm...Champion/Sorcerer?


Not sure where you're getting that Caster/Martials have a hard time. From what I've seen they do great.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

bespell weapon link


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So it seems like the rules actually cover many other actions pretty well, but do to an oddity in the formatting for Bespell Weapon it's not actually blocked by the rules. I personally don't mind it being used in a way that can grant +1d6 for a whole round as it's still fairly hard to make use of, though personally I'd prefer (or it feels better) if it had a little bit of scaling and only applied to the next attack. There is a bit of jankiness to optimizing it to last for the whole next round as written.


Edge93 wrote:
Not sure where you're getting that Caster/Martials have a hard time. From what I've seen they do great.

I think Caster/Martials make great casters. :)

Oh, and I think Martial/Casters make great martials.
(Though it's hard not to be solid at your class's shtick in PF2.)
And I think both balance better into the system than they did in PF1.

I GMed a Wizard/archer build (from a great player) in the playtest that had that one decent shot/round and he made the most of it, but it was like a second attack from any dedicated martial. And much of the time he needed a Shield up or to move which means no attack if he casts a spell. Shooting the bow was a nice filler when he had a spare action or the battle was winding down, but he paid so many feats as well as gold for what ended up being a faster, weaker Cantrip.
I can't see Bespell Weapon working the next round as particularly powerful to such PCs, yet it'd be helpful. In most battles, he had to cast as much as he could anyway.

And he was so fragile too, despite taking Fighter Resiliency. Luckily he had the mobility and tactics to rescue himself multiple times, but it was rough.

Now I'm thinking Quick Cantrip would be a good feat.
Half the damage, but one-action casting. Maybe limit to 1/round so they can't exploit weaknesses to ridiculously.


Lady Melo wrote:
they ended there last turn

"Their" The word you are looking for there is "their."

They're there. Their heir.

Edge93 wrote:
As a general rule a "last action you took" thing has to be on the same turn. Otherwise you could Cheese Metamagic in a similar way too.

I can't find this. Activities which take multiple actions are specifically called out as needing to all be done on one turn (461). Metamagic specifically calls out that it has to be directly before the "cast a spell."

I cannot find any reference to "the last action you took" as a defined term (or what distinguishes it from "your most recent action").


Source Core Rulebook pg. 199 wrote:

Frequency once per turn

Requirements Your most recent action was to cast a non-cantrip spell.

You siphon the residual energy from the last spell you cast into one weapon you’re wielding. Until the end of your turn, the weapon deals an extra 1d6 damage of a type depending on the school of the spell you just cast.

Source Core Rulebook pg. 469 wrote:

The last step of starting your turn is always the same.

* Regain your 3 actions and 1 reaction. If you haven’t spent your reaction from your last turn, you lose it—you can’t “save” actions or reactions from one turn to use during the next turn.

I would take this as it has to be the same turn you cast the spell. There may be better ruling somewhere, but since the Trigger would have been the previous turn, it can’t carry over.


What stops you from ending your turn and using the free action on someone else's turn? That quote says that it goes away at the start of your turn but if you spend all three actions, then go "my turns over" and then on the next player's turn you activate Bespell Weapon, which lasts "Until the end of your turn"...


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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 199 wrote:

Frequency once per turn

Requirements Your most recent action was to cast a non-cantrip spell.

You siphon the residual energy from the last spell you cast into one weapon you’re wielding. Until the end of your turn, the weapon deals an extra 1d6 damage of a type depending on the school of the spell you just cast.

Source Core Rulebook pg. 469 wrote:

The last step of starting your turn is always the same.

* Regain your 3 actions and 1 reaction. If you haven’t spent your reaction from your last turn, you lose it—you can’t “save” actions or reactions from one turn to use during the next turn.

I would take this as it has to be the same turn you cast the spell. There may be better ruling somewhere, but since the Trigger would have been the previous turn, it can’t carry over.

This was where my mind went, but reading through it carefully makes me think that I was wrong. Bespell Weapon isn't a Reaction and doesn't have a Trigger so that part of the rules isn't relevant. And the situation addressed in this thread doesn't require carrying any Actions to the second Turn.

Turn 1
*Action 1: Shoot an arrow.
*Actions 2 and 3: Cast Fireball.

Turn 2
*Free Action: Bespell Weapon
*Action 1: Shoot a Bespelled Arrow.
*Action 2: Shoot a Bespelled Arrow.
*Action 3: Shoot a Bespelled Arrow.

None of the three Actions from Turn 1 were held over to Turn 2.

The closest analog to Bespell Weapon in the Playtest would seem to be Magical Striker which had the line "This benefit applies only to the next Strike you perform on your turn, and is wasted if you don’t Strike by the end of your turn." The absence of any similar wording in Bespell Weapon suggests to me that it lacks such a limitation. Then again it could be just another of the many editing errors in the CRB.


Was there any feedback from Devs on this interaction?

I would assume, since it's a Requirement and not a Trigger, that you can indeed end a turn with a Spell and then proceed to use Bespell Weapon at the start of your next turn (provided you didn't use a Reaction between turns).

RAW that is how it reads, but was wondering if there was a confirmation as intended.


Because of Metamagic, I wouldn't expect "the last action you took effects" to have to be on the same turn. Otherwise, there is no way to use metamagic on a 3-action spell unless you have the Wizard metamagic capstone. That, and there really isn't a whole lot in the rules to indicate you can't.

To further reinforce this, the sorcerer metamagic feat Overwhelming Energy uses Wall of Fire (a 3-action spell) as an example for a spell you could affect with the metamagic.


Henro wrote:

Because of Metamagic, I wouldn't expect "the last action you took effects" to have to be on the same turn. Otherwise, there is no way to use metamagic on a 3-action spell unless you have the Wizard metamagic capstone. That, and there really isn't a whole lot in the rules to indicate you can't.

To further reinforce this, the sorcerer metamagic feat Overwhelming Energy uses Wall of Fire (a 3-action spell) as an example for a spell you could affect with the metamagic.

Interestingly, AoN has the link for Wall of Fire going to "Wail of the Banshee", but perhaps it was just there as an example.

That said, I think Metamagic Feats were specifically said by Devs to have to be used the same round that a Spell is cast.

However, Bespell Weapon is not a Metamagic Feat.


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Metamagic isn't very informative when looking at Bespell Weapon. First, Bespell Weapon itself is not a Metamagic feat so would not follow the same rules as is. Second most Metamagic feats have a "if your next action..." rather than "if your most recent action..." which are very different timing wise. It is better to treat Bespell weapon as what it is; a specific feat with a specific requirement that should be examined on its own.

I read "Your most recent action," as being whatever the last action your character took whether it be an action or reaction. For example, say you cast Feather Fall as a reaction to falling or being shoved off of something between turns. I see no reason why such a character would be unable to use Bespell weapon from that casting of Feather Fall.

Really it is the use of "most recent" that leads me to this conclusion. Saying most recent rather than "the last action" indicates that the actual timing doesn't matter. If your character were to be Petrified for 300 years then cured suddenly of that petrification, as long as their last action was to cast a spell, they could Bespell their weapon. They would still satisfy the requirement to use the feat after all. Well so long as they didn't stop to make a Recall Knowledge check at any point during that 300 years anyway.


I would agree with you beowulf99, was just wondering what's RAI.

It does seem deliberate (and to be honest, the feat wouldn't be very good if it was not to be read that way).


So, by that reading, if you end your turn casting fireball, make an attack of opportunity on someone else's turn, you wouldn't be able to use bespell weapon at the beginning of your next turn? Or would you even be able to trigger bespell weapon before the AoO and get its benefits for that?

Horizon Hunters

I agree with the consensus here, that since it lacks the wording found throughout the book that this is another instance where there is no limitation that it has to be doing the same round OR that this is a candidate for a future errata.

Since I think it is good a good policy to never assume it is an errata candidate without really strong evidence I think letting it carry over to the next turn should be ok.

A player using this strategy though would be half to be careful about Striding or needing to interact to change weapons though as this would disrupt their Gish strategies.

I can see some cool interactions using bespell weapon along with true strike, true target, and weapon surge. But I think what is most powerful with this ruling is the possibilities with Weapon Storm. If I am reading this correctly couldn't someone:

Turn 1:
1.Stride into position
2+3. Lightning bolt (or whatever other spell you want)

Turn 2: (assuming the enemy is still in range)
Free Action BeSpell Weapon
1+2. Weapon Storm dealing 4 die of damage (or more if heightened) + an extra 1d6
3. Do a BeSpelled Weapon Strike with no MAP

That's potentially some big damage without negative modifiers for attacking multiple times (even though we are only really getting the opportunity to proc the bespell weapon bonus 1d6 twice instead of 3 times like with the Strike, Strike, Strike option).


Salamileg wrote:
So, by that reading, if you end your turn casting fireball, make an attack of opportunity on someone else's turn, you wouldn't be able to use bespell weapon at the beginning of your next turn? Or would you even be able to trigger bespell weapon before the AoO and get its benefits for that?

I suppose you could, but that in itself is a bit tricky. Bespell weapon has a duration of until the end of your turn. If you were to use it before an AoO made off your turn, does that mean that Bespell weapon is active until the end of your next turn?

That would be how I interpret it. This could mean that you could get a total of 4 "bespelled" attacks base, which I still feel is fine honestly.

Horizon Hunters

Salamileg wrote:
So, by that reading, if you end your turn casting fireball, make an attack of opportunity on someone else's turn, you wouldn't be able to use bespell weapon at the beginning of your next turn? Or would you even be able to trigger bespell weapon before the AoO and get its benefits for that?

I believe reaction like AoO are distinct from an Action and the text from Bespell Weapon specifies that your last Action should be a non-cantrip Spell. So making an AoO between rounds would not ruin your last spell action and make you unable to use bespell weapon when you got your turn next.

Bespell Weapon also says it benefits lasts to the end of your turn and not the end of the round so I would think that in most cases you couldn't get a 4th use of it if an enemy had triggered an AoO after you had gone.


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Goldryno wrote:


1+2. Weapon Storm dealing 4 die of damage (or more if heightened) + an extra 1d6

I don't think Bespell Weapon interacts with Weapon Storm since it is a Spell.

Bespell Weapon:

Quote:
Until the end of your turn, the weapon deals an extra 1d6 damage of a type depending on the school of the spell you just cast.

Weapon Storm:

Quote:
This flurry deals four dice of damage to creatures in the area. This damage has the same type as the weapon and uses the same die size. Determine the die size as if you were attacking with the weapon; for instance, if you were wielding a two-hand weapon in both hands, you'd use its two-hand damage die.

We use the weapon for determining the effect of the spell but Bespell Weapon is not part of the weapon itself, and it doesn't change the die size of the weapon, it only makes the weapon itself do more damage.

The opening flavor text mentions swinging the weapon, but since the damage applies to the weapon itself they wouldn't interact.

Salamilieg wrote:


So, by that reading, if you end your turn casting fireball, make an attack of opportunity on someone else's turn, you wouldn't be able to use bespell weapon at the beginning of your next turn? Or would you even be able to trigger bespell weapon before the AoO and get its benefits for that?

Reactions are classified as Actions so if you made any action between turns that was not casting a non-cantrip spell, I believe you'd disqualify yourself from using Bespell Weapon.

It doesn't state "Action", it states "action", which is the more general term for any kind of action as opposed to the specific differentiation of "Action". At least that's how it reads to me.

Horizon Hunters

Midnightoker wrote:
Goldryno wrote:


1+2. Weapon Storm dealing 4 die of damage (or more if heightened) + an extra 1d6

I don't think Bespell Weapon interacts with Weapon Storm since it is a Spell.

Bespell Weapon:

Quote:
Until the end of your turn, the weapon deals an extra 1d6 damage of a type depending on the school of the spell you just cast.

Weapon Storm:

Quote:
This flurry deals four dice of damage to creatures in the area. This damage has the same type as the weapon and uses the same die size. Determine the die size as if you were attacking with the weapon; for instance, if you were wielding a two-hand weapon in both hands, you'd use its two-hand damage die.

We use the weapon for determining the effect of the spell but Bespell Weapon is not part of the weapon itself, and it doesn't change the die size of the weapon, it only makes the weapon itself do more damage.

The opening flavor text mentions swinging the weapon, but since the damage applies to the weapon itself they wouldn't interact.

Salamilieg wrote:


So, by that reading, if you end your turn casting fireball, make an attack of opportunity on someone else's turn, you wouldn't be able to use bespell weapon at the beginning of your next turn? Or would you even be able to trigger bespell weapon before the AoO and get its benefits for that?

Reactions are classified as Actions so if you made any action between turns that was not casting a non-cantrip spell, I believe you'd disqualify yourself from using Bespell Weapon.

It doesn't state "Action", it states "action", which is the more general term for any kind of action as opposed to the specific differentiation of "Action". At least that's how it reads to me.

I was considering this too but the text for Bespell weapon does not specify that this needs to be a strike. It simply states that it applies to your weapon.

As to your second point, from my reading looking at the capitalization for the letter does not seem to be a good rule of thumb to go by. It is not very consistent aside from when it is in the title or a start of a section. I also can't find any place in the book where they make this distinction between "actions" and "Actions" (but please point it out to me if I have missed it).

I do see quite a few places where they do distinguish between actions and reactions though. Where they don't it is usually in reference to conditions that don't allow you to act and the condition usually calls out to make it clear that reactions are included or that you cannot act at all. Just to be clear I'm not stating that reactions are not a subset of actions. Just that usually they are treated differently unless stated otherwise and I do not think Bespell Weapon is one of the instances where you would treat the two the same.


Goldryno wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
Goldryno wrote:


1+2. Weapon Storm dealing 4 die of damage (or more if heightened) + an extra 1d6

I don't think Bespell Weapon interacts with Weapon Storm since it is a Spell.

Bespell Weapon:

Quote:
Until the end of your turn, the weapon deals an extra 1d6 damage of a type depending on the school of the spell you just cast.

Weapon Storm:

Quote:
This flurry deals four dice of damage to creatures in the area. This damage has the same type as the weapon and uses the same die size. Determine the die size as if you were attacking with the weapon; for instance, if you were wielding a two-hand weapon in both hands, you'd use its two-hand damage die.

We use the weapon for determining the effect of the spell but Bespell Weapon is not part of the weapon itself, and it doesn't change the die size of the weapon, it only makes the weapon itself do more damage.

The opening flavor text mentions swinging the weapon, but since the damage applies to the weapon itself they wouldn't interact.

Salamilieg wrote:


So, by that reading, if you end your turn casting fireball, make an attack of opportunity on someone else's turn, you wouldn't be able to use bespell weapon at the beginning of your next turn? Or would you even be able to trigger bespell weapon before the AoO and get its benefits for that?

Reactions are classified as Actions so if you made any action between turns that was not casting a non-cantrip spell, I believe you'd disqualify yourself from using Bespell Weapon.

It doesn't state "Action", it states "action", which is the more general term for any kind of action as opposed to the specific differentiation of "Action". At least that's how it reads to me.

I was considering this too but the text for Bespell weapon does not specify that this needs to be a strike. It simply states that it applies to your weapon.

As to your second point, from my reading looking at the capitalization for the letter...

On the capital, I’m more making the point that reactions and free actions are actions as classified in the book, they are specifically called a type of action.

The only reason I point out the capitalization is to point out that it’s not trying to make a distinction between types of actions, because reactions are a type of action and thus qualify as a “most recent action”.

As for Weapon Storm, it’s worded just like Treat Wounds, it doesn’t use the weapon only the weapons die for the purposes of damage. It’s not bespell weapons wording the prohibits weapon storm, it’s that weapon storm specifically only uses the weapon damage die (which the extra damage from Bespell Weapon has nothing to do with).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Bespell Weapon uses language very similar to the Grab, Knockdown, and Shove monster abilities, all of which of been clarified by the devs to be limited to same-turn timing. The same logic would seem to apply to Bespell Weapon.


Shisumo wrote:
Bespell Weapon uses language very similar to the Grab, Knockdown, and Shove monster abilities, all of which of been clarified by the devs to be limited to same-turn timing. The same logic would seem to apply to Bespell Weapon.

Can you link to those clarifications? I hadn't seen those.


Gisher wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Bespell Weapon uses language very similar to the Grab, Knockdown, and Shove monster abilities, all of which of been clarified by the devs to be limited to same-turn timing. The same logic would seem to apply to Bespell Weapon.
Can you link to those clarifications? I hadn't seen those.

Please do.

Grab, Knockdown, and Shove all involve a target which gets a turn with maybe a move, escape or other relevant actions in between. Potentially changing the situation. It seems a different even though it does use the same language 'last action'.

Bespell weapon is really only about the caster and his equipment.


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Shisumo wrote:
Bespell Weapon uses language very similar to the Grab, Knockdown, and Shove monster abilities, all of which of been clarified by the devs to be limited to same-turn timing. The same logic would seem to apply to Bespell Weapon.

As I have said time and again, being like something is not the same as being that thing.

We have similar qualifiers at work here:

"The monster’s last action was a success with a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry..."

and

"Your most recent action was to cast a non‑cantrip spell."

The wording, "most recent," stands out quite clearly. As Bespell Weapon is a free action without a trigger, you can use it at any time you see fit provided you meet the requirement.

The noted monster abilities on the other hand are all actions themselves meaning that they can only ever be used during that monsters turn, or as a reaction provided they readied an action. This is a clear difference.

RAW I see no reason why Bespell Weapon could not be used after your turn is over, its duration lasting until the end of your next turn. It has a frequency of, "Once per turn," of course, but that frequency doesn't stipulate when you can use the ability, only how often.

If the intention was to restrict it to use during your turn all that would be required is the addition of a trigger, probably triggered by the casting of a spell. Instead you have the freedom to use the ability when you wish.


For the record:

Free Action p 17 wrote:

FREE ACTION

ACTION TYPE
Free actions use this symbol: . Free actions don’t require you to spend any of your three single actions or your reaction. A free action might have a trigger like a reaction does. If so, you can use it just like a reaction—even if it’s not your turn. However, you can use only one free action per trigger, so if you have multiple free actions with the same trigger, you have to decide which to use. If a free action doesn’t have a trigger, you use it like a single action, just without spending any of your actions for the turn.

No trigger means Bespell weapon must be used on your turn.

Actions p 461 wrote:
You affect the world around you primarily by using actions, which produce effects. Actions are most closely measured and restricted during the encounter mode of play, but even when it isn’t important for you to keep strict track of actions, they remain the way in which you interact with the game world. There are four types of actions: single actions, activities, reactions, and free actions.

A reaction is an action; feather fall can trigger bespell weapon IMO.

Also, the point about overwhelming energy and fire wall is very interesting, and IMO I see very little difference between "most recent action" and "last action". Linguistically they are the same. Your turns happen consecutively, there isn't a gap in time between the last action of Turn 1 and the first action of Turn 2. Those two actions are as adjacent as actions that happen during the same turn.

And, following that logic, "next action" means the same. If metamagic can indeed be used as the third action in anticipation of opening your next turn with a spell, as well as just the first (or second for 1 action spells), it really opens up some interesting tactical choices that till now I didn't think existed, and make metamagic feats quite a bit more tantalizing.

edit: And in regards to Grab, Shove, and Knockdown, those are very different beasts. As has been pointed out, If a monster strikes me with their last action, I can then move away on my turn. It would be physically impossible for the monster to automatically grab me on their next turn, in this case. But metamagic is inherent to the mage. It all happens inside you, so that restriction doesn't apply.


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Quote:
No trigger means Bespell weapon must be used on your turn.

I don't think anyone was disputing that Bespell Weapon must be used on their turn, just whether or not using it on the following turn (and after a Reaction) was legal.

I am 90% certain that a Dev confirmed that Metamagic's must be used in the same turn, and likewise for Trip/Grab/etc. abilities.

But as has been pointed out many times Bespell Weapon is nothing like those other abilities:

- It is not a Metamagic Feat

- It does not have a trigger, only a requirement

- Abilities that reference the same turn use "last"/"next" and do not use the language "most recent". Most Recent implies it can be used after a reaction that is not during your turn, and by extension does not need to be used the same turn as the Requirement is still met.

- It is a free action, which Metamagic/Grab/Trip all at least require an Action

If you want to say it has similar wording, then okay, but it is not the same as these other things.

And not the same wording in a TTRPG often means intentionally different (see Battle Medicine).


theservantsllcleanitup wrote:

For the record:

Free Action p 17 wrote:

FREE ACTION

ACTION TYPE
Free actions use this symbol: . Free actions don’t require you to spend any of your three single actions or your reaction. A free action might have a trigger like a reaction does. If so, you can use it just like a reaction—even if it’s not your turn. However, you can use only one free action per trigger, so if you have multiple free actions with the same trigger, you have to decide which to use. If a free action doesn’t have a trigger, you use it like a single action, just without spending any of your actions for the turn.
No trigger means Bespell weapon must be used on your turn.

Ah, missed that bit, fair enough.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Hmm, this feels a bit like the Magus now in 1E with spellstrike.

Seems like you could cast a two action spell, stride and follow up with strike with the weapon that you have in hand or have I gotten this completely wrong?


Arklore wrote:

Hmm, this feels a bit like the Magus now in 1E with spellstrike.

Seems like you could cast a two action spell, stride and follow up with strike with the weapon that you have in hand or have I gotten this completely wrong?

Yes, you have it completely wrong. You're listing four actions.

Bespell Weapon doesn't give you a Strike as part of the free action, and it's not like Spellstrike at all.
So two-action spell, (Bespell Weapon, Free), Stride. End of round.
To Stride, you'd need a one-action spell. Overall, the feat's of limited use, even though it feels like a "must-have" for gishes. That's questionable.


I also fail to see anywhere in the rules that would indicate that the spell casting action had to happen on your current turn. If that was the case, it really should have a trait that calls that out explicitly.

Now if you took a reaction between your last turn and your current turn that was not casting a spell, I think the connection would be lost.


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Arklore wrote:

Hmm, this feels a bit like the Magus now in 1E with spellstrike.

Seems like you could cast a two action spell, stride and follow up with strike with the weapon that you have in hand or have I gotten this completely wrong?

No, it is much more like arcane strike.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

So looking at the rules, its a free action to retain the residual energy and requires an action to strike with the weapon. As long as you have an action, you can use it as your third action to strike. That should end your turn. Its a bit ambiguous in my mind if it would carry over as a reaction if you were multi-classed with attack of opportunity or retribution. I tend to think that it would not carry over into a reaction, let alone your next turn.


Arklore wrote:

So looking at the rules, its a free action to retain the residual energy and requires an action to strike with the weapon. As long as you have an action, you can use it as your third action to strike. That should end your turn. Its a bit ambiguous in my mind if it would carry over as a reaction if you were multi-classed with attack of opportunity or retribution. I tend to think that it would not carry over into a reaction, let alone your next turn.

Here's what you said though:

Quote:
Seems like you could cast a two action spell, stride and follow up with strike with the weapon that you have in hand or have I gotten this completely wrong?

That's 4 actions.

Also, Striding after your two action spell would mean you can't use "Bespell Weapon" after the Stride, so you'd have to use it before the Stride, which means even if you meant that Strike to occur on the following turn (where they start with Bespell Weapon and then Strike after) they still couldn't use Bespell Weapon because there was a Stride in between.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Midnightoker, I guess I did not articulate clearly. Two action spell ( say Fireball ) Free Action for Bespell Weapon, and follow up with a Strike. That should work.


Arklore wrote:
Midnightoker, I guess I did not articulate clearly. Two action spell ( say Fireball ) Free Action for Bespell Weapon, and follow up with a Strike. That should work.

Agreed. That's the one interaction of this feat that has to be true.

The debate is whether Stride -> Fireball -> No Reaction between turns -> start of next turn Bespell Weapon -> Strike + Bespell Damage is legal.

The more I sit on it, the more I think that is strong, so maybe it's not intended by the devs.

But then is it really that much stronger than finding a one action spell (like say Heal) and attacking twice with Bespell Weapon right after? After all, that third strike is still going to be at a -10/-8 even if it has Bespell Weapon on it.

I guess there might be a Ranger + Caster MCD that can really shine with it, but I'm failing to see any major balance issues.

Especially since the Reaction between turns is effectively off limits as a "balance" portion to the "three action Bespell".

The weird edge case I think is using Feather Fall specifically to get Bespell Weapon over and over but that's effectively wasting level 1 slots to get +1d6 damage on attacks with MAP as at least a partial caster (heck Burning Hands is almost better than that).

Reaction Spells, should they work with Bespell Weapon, is the one portion of balance that can be potentially questionable. But in order for that to be an issue you'd need to be able to spam a non-cantrip spell between the levels of 1-5 (after that, +1d6 is not nearly as impactful).


Arklore wrote:
Hmm, this feels a bit like the Magus now in 1E with spellstrike.

For a bit of that Magus feeling, I'd suggest Wizard (or Sorcerer) with Monk Multiclass. Using Monastic Weapons lets you apply both your Monk abilities and Wizard abilities to your attacks. Consider one possible turn...

First Action: Cast True Strike
Free Action: Use Bespell Weapon
Second Action: Ki Strike + Flurry
Third Action: Strike

Your first attack is benefitting from True Strike, Ki Strike, and Bespell Weapon. Your second attack uses Ki Strike and Bespell Weapon. Your third attack is still getting Bespell Weapon. To me this sort of combo has a very similar feel to a Magus.


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IMO, the most "efficient" use of Bespell Weapon is for an archery focused fighter with Sorcerer or Wizard Dedication. You have to take Basic Sorcerer/Wizard Spellcasting, Basic Blood Potency/Basic Arcana, and then Advanced Blood Potency/Arcana (so it doesn't come online until 8th level), but you can cast a spell into spellstrike ammunition, Bespell Weapon to add bonus damage to your bow (which is a 1+ handed weapon that explicitly allows casting when wielded), and shoot the spellstrike ammunition at the full attack bonus/proficiency of a fighter to cause arrow damage + spell effect in spellstrike ammunition + bonus damage from Bespell Weapon.

A sorcerer or wizard can do the same thing starting at 4th level, but their attack bonus/proficiency will be lower. They will also need to use at least one feat (either ancestry if elf, half-elf, or human, or general) to gain proficiency with bows; or use a sling instead of a bow.

Both types of "eldritch archer" can also make their own spellstrike ammunition by gaining expert proficiency in Crafting and taking the Magical Crafting skill feat.


Gisher wrote:
Arklore wrote:
Hmm, this feels a bit like the Magus now in 1E with spellstrike.

For a bit of that Magus feeling, I'd suggest Wizard (or Sorcerer) with Monk Multiclass. Using Monastic Weapons lets you apply both your Monk abilities and Wizard abilities to your attacks. Consider one possible turn...

First Action: Cast True Strike
Free Action: Use Bespell Weapon
Second Action: Ki Strike + Flurry
Third Action: Strike

Your first attack is benefitting from True Strike, Ki Strike, and Bespell Weapon. Your second attack uses Ki Strike and Bespell Weapon. Your third attack is still getting Bespell Weapon. To me this sort of combo has a very similar feel to a Magus.

Doesn't blend well.

The second attack would have an abysmal chance of hitting (since they're already behind the attack curve), plus the 3rd attack (even worse) should be to retreat because you have a caster's h.p. & AC while next to an opponent!
Cannot recommend.

A gish should look for feats that combine multiple offensive actions into one attack roll, i.e. Swipe. Then True Strike gets double duty.
Or for attacks that have defensive benefit, though many of those feats are hard to acquire if starting as a caster.


A flurry ranger can do okay at level 8 with maybe a sorcerer fey bloodline MCD with hunt prey, attack, single action heal, or a second attack and then feather fall between turns with a flurry round of four bespell attacks round 2.

But that’s a pretty steep investment for a about an average extra (rough math) 8 damage total on a second turn with setup and three Class Feat investments to get there at level 8.

Plus the value of the Feat comes down to flexibility of spell you can cast, so you can trigger different damage types. Potentially resistances make it better though.

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