Enigma Muse anyone?


Advice


Has anyone used the Enigma Muse to much success? What do you like to use it for? What feats do you like to get that require it as a prerequisite.


Enigma muse seems to get really good at high levels, because of the studious capacity and deep lore traits. You will want to familiarize yourself with the lore skill, and the recall knowledge task.

A fun character would be a enigma muse bard detective.

I might also take the multifarious muse feat and get access the polymath must. Then you would be a true jack of all trades.


Bardic Lore is nice at low levels, I recommend getting Dubious Knowledge for higher levels because it will be harder to succeed with it but you still can get good info. In-combat usually my first turn was Inspire, Shield, and Recall Knowledge, giving up shield to move sometimes.


S. J. Digriz wrote:

Enigma muse seems to get really good at high levels, because of the studious capacity and deep lore traits. You will want to familiarize yourself with the lore skill, and the recall knowledge task.

A fun character would be a enigma muse bard detective.

I might also take the multifarious muse feat and get access the polymath must. Then you would be a true jack of all trades.

Does Studious Capacity mean you can cast one spell per level if your out of spells for that level? 9r just one extra spell total for the day?


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Atalius wrote:
S. J. Digriz wrote:

Enigma muse seems to get really good at high levels, because of the studious capacity and deep lore traits. You will want to familiarize yourself with the lore skill, and the recall knowledge task.

A fun character would be a enigma muse bard detective.

I might also take the multifarious muse feat and get access the polymath must. Then you would be a true jack of all trades.

Does Studious Capacity mean you can cast one spell per level if your out of spells for that level? 9r just one extra spell total for the day?

I'm 95% sure it's one per day, in line with the extra arcane bond use the wizard can get around the same level, but you can go higher level with your bonus spell.

I don't think it's a great feat, but there aren't a lot of good concentration spells on the occult list, either.


one per day is God awful for that level. I would likely grab Allegro at 14, maybe at 16 I would just take True Hypercognition even though its a lvl 14 feat? is that good?


The Sorcerer version, Greater Primal Evolution, gives two per day, the Wizard one.


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I was just looking at a combination of a bard with enigma muse and some low level hunter feats, specifically Monster Hunter. You'd be able to hunt prey and make a recall knowledge check as a single action -- which if you have bardic lore it means you've basically got an encyclopedia at your disposal. It's basically the equivalent of the 10th level Master Monster Hunter feat, but online much sooner. If you're relying on ranger feats to fight, this might be a pretty good combo. (Recall Knowledge + Hunt Prey via monster hunter; inspire courage; hunted shot for two strikes)


Enigma Muse is worth it for Bardic Knowledge alone, assuming you aren't traveling w/ a pack of Rogues & Wizards who know everything twice over already. If with a standard party, it's a great backup and covers all those outside cases. It'd be a crucial ability in a low-knowledge party.

The question is, how important is information in your campaign?
That's how good the ability is.
Heck, even in a hack-n-slash, knowing your foes is important.

Dubious Knowledge is great (though warn your GM!) as is Unmistakable Lore (though you'd have to boost a different Lore to do this).

As for it improving your martial skills...
I don't think Hunt Prey w/o Hunter's Edge is worth a Dedication.
And Monster Hunter needs a critical success to help your allies, but now that's two feats to add Hunt Prey to your Recall Knowledge action.
Not worth it.
But then you can shoot them twice in one action!
Yes, for a third feat. And with a non-martial class at full MAP, and costing you an action w/ each new enemy.
Not worth it. So much else you could do with those feats.
You'll already be able to get off your good first shots w/ an occasional second shot or Shield (where the other version would have to take his Hunt Prey action again). If you really need to drop a boss, 3-action Magic Missile.

Or be a martial who dips Bard.

As for Enigma Muse improving your caster abilities...
I'm not sure it does. It's like a dozen+ skills so it'd likely be too strong if it did both.

Anyway, I think it's the best muse with all that random knowledge popping up and what not. I'd even consider having Cha on a Wizard or Alchemist just to get that Int on top of those rolls.
Cheers


Xenocrat wrote:
Atalius wrote:
S. J. Digriz wrote:

Enigma muse seems to get really good at high levels, because of the studious capacity and deep lore traits. You will want to familiarize yourself with the lore skill, and the recall knowledge task.

A fun character would be a enigma muse bard detective.

I might also take the multifarious muse feat and get access the polymath must. Then you would be a true jack of all trades.

Does Studious Capacity mean you can cast one spell per level if your out of spells for that level? 9r just one extra spell total for the day?

I'm 95% sure it's one per day, in line with the extra arcane bond use the wizard can get around the same level, but you can go higher level with your bonus spell.

I don't think it's a great feat, but there aren't a lot of good concentration spells on the occult list, either.

I interpreted it as being 1 spell per day per spell level (except for your highest level). It basically gives you an extra slot for each of your spell levels, except for your highest level.

Note that greater vital evolution, the 16th level sorcerer feat, *does* let you get an extra casting of your highest level slot. So, it works for 10th level spells. Which is very good, and in all ways equal to having extra lower level slots.


Castilliano wrote:

Anyway, I think it's the best muse with all that random knowledge popping up and what not. I'd even consider having Cha on a Wizard or Alchemist just to get that Int on top of those rolls.

Cheers

Another way for wizards (and everyone else) is to get Unified Theory (level 15, legendary arcana), which will be a long wait but better once you get there. Maybe retrain out of bard once that gets on the table.


Paradozen wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

Anyway, I think it's the best muse with all that random knowledge popping up and what not. I'd even consider having Cha on a Wizard or Alchemist just to get that Int on top of those rolls.

Cheers
Another way for wizards (and everyone else) is to get Unified Theory (level 15, legendary arcana), which will be a long wait but better once you get there. Maybe retrain out of bard once that gets on the table.

Bardic Knowledge still has a place for things that aren't covered by the magical knowledge skills, like profession lores (engineering, legal, etc.) or society.

S. J. Digriz wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Atalius wrote:


Does Studious Capacity mean you can cast one spell per level if your out of spells for that level? 9r just one extra spell total for the day?

I'm 95% sure it's one per day, in line with the extra arcane bond use the wizard can get around the same level, but you can go higher level with your bonus spell.

I don't think it's a great feat, but there aren't a lot of good concentration spells on the occult list, either.

I interpreted it as being 1 spell per day per spell level (except for your highest level). It basically gives you an extra slot for each of your spell levels, except for your highest level.

Note that greater vital evolution, the 16th level sorcerer feat, *does* let you get an extra casting of your highest level slot. So, it works for 10th level spells. Which is very good, and in all ways equal to having extra lower level slots.

It's definitely poorly written (all references to "appropriate" should be purged from the CRB), but I can't imagine they intended it to give you that many spells and set you even with the Wizard/Sorcerer.

It's weaker than Greater Primal Evolution (two spells, including your top level) but stronger than the wizard's Superior Bond (one spell, two levels below max). Eight spells (soon to be nine) is way out of line with that.

Note that the Enigma can get the sorcerer's Greater Mental Evolution feat effect at 18, so I can't see them intending to give a second tier casting class better spell access than the sorcerer to extra slots as well as equal expansion of repertoire when the sorcerer can only have one or the other.


S. J. Digriz wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Atalius wrote:
S. J. Digriz wrote:

Enigma muse seems to get really good at high levels, because of the studious capacity and deep lore traits. You will want to familiarize yourself with the lore skill, and the recall knowledge task.

A fun character would be a enigma muse bard detective.

I might also take the multifarious muse feat and get access the polymath must. Then you would be a true jack of all trades.

Does Studious Capacity mean you can cast one spell per level if your out of spells for that level? 9r just one extra spell total for the day?

I'm 95% sure it's one per day, in line with the extra arcane bond use the wizard can get around the same level, but you can go higher level with your bonus spell.

I don't think it's a great feat, but there aren't a lot of good concentration spells on the occult list, either.

I interpreted it as being 1 spell per day per spell level (except for your highest level). It basically gives you an extra slot for each of your spell levels, except for your highest level.

Note that greater vital evolution, the 16th level sorcerer feat, *does* let you get an extra casting of your highest level slot. So, it works for 10th level spells. Which is very good, and in all ways equal to having extra lower level slots.

I interpreted it the same way.


Xenocrat wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

Anyway, I think it's the best muse with all that random knowledge popping up and what not. I'd even consider having Cha on a Wizard or Alchemist just to get that Int on top of those rolls.

Cheers
Another way for wizards (and everyone else) is to get Unified Theory (level 15, legendary arcana), which will be a long wait but better once you get there. Maybe retrain out of bard once that gets on the table.

Bardic Knowledge still has a place for things that aren't covered by the magical knowledge skills, like profession lores (engineering, legal, etc.) or society.

S. J. Digriz wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Atalius wrote:


Does Studious Capacity mean you can cast one spell per level if your out of spells for that level? 9r just one extra spell total for the day?

I'm 95% sure it's one per day, in line with the extra arcane bond use the wizard can get around the same level, but you can go higher level with your bonus spell.

I don't think it's a great feat, but there aren't a lot of good concentration spells on the occult list, either.

I interpreted it as being 1 spell per day per spell level (except for your highest level). It basically gives you an extra slot for each of your spell levels, except for your highest level.

Note that greater vital evolution, the 16th level sorcerer feat, *does* let you get an extra casting of your highest level slot. So, it works for 10th level spells. Which is very good, and in all ways equal to having extra lower level slots.

It's definitely poorly written (all references to "appropriate" should be purged from the CRB), but I can't imagine they intended it to give you that many spells and set you even with the Wizard/Sorcerer.

It's weaker than Greater Primal Evolution (two spells, including your top level) but stronger than the wizard's Superior Bond (one spell, two levels below max). Eight spells (soon to be nine) is way out of line with that.

Note that the Enigma can...

It is stronger than Superior Bond because its a 16th level feat, and Superior Bond is 14th level.


I think you fundamentally misunderstand Paizo's design philosophy if you think they gave you a feat that gives you seven extra spells when you choose it.


Xenocrat wrote:
I think you fundamentally misunderstand Paizo's design philosophy if you think they gave you a feat that gives you seven extra spells when you choose it.

This is true, Paizo beat everything down with a nerf bat, and for that very reason your mostly likely right Xenocrat.


Xenocrat wrote:
I think you fundamentally misunderstand Paizo's design philosophy if you think they gave you a feat that gives you seven extra spells when you choose it.

It would give you six extra spells at 16th. But those spells are not incredibly valuable. By 16th level, you have a number of magic items that give you 'extra castings' of lower level spells.

If you have played in and/or DMed a lot of high level games, you will understand. An extra casting of fireball, even at 5th level, is not so awesome. At 16th level, you may well have a wand that does that. In fact, the action economy gained by the class feat Effortless Concentration may well be the better feat, because your magic items can't readily duplicate it, and that extra action is precious.


LOL


Castilliano wrote:


Not worth it. So much else you could do with those feats.
You'll already be able to get off your good first shots w/ an occasional second shot or Shield (where the other version would have to take his Hunt Prey action again). If you really need to drop a boss, 3-action Magic Missile.

It's probably easier to pull off on a ranger base with multiclass bard since a human can get monster hunter and hunted shot at level 1, plus will have easier access to other boosts.

I disagree that it's a waste of feats for a bard though, if you're trying to use a bow or crossbow anyway. If you're a bard, you are probably going to be spending an action on inspire courage. This combo lets you recall knowledge while hunting prey, which is also an action you'll want to do if you are the party know it all. If you get lucky and crit success you don't need to inspire that round and could then cast a two action spell or do something like true strike and crossbow mastery.

If you're a caster bard, then by all means do something else. I was just pointing out the synergy if that is what you wanted to do.


cavernshark wrote:
Castilliano wrote:


Not worth it. So much else you could do with those feats.
You'll already be able to get off your good first shots w/ an occasional second shot or Shield (where the other version would have to take his Hunt Prey action again). If you really need to drop a boss, 3-action Magic Missile.

It's probably easier to pull off on a ranger base with multiclass bard since a human can get monster hunter and hunted shot at level 1, plus will have easier access to other boosts.

I disagree that it's a waste of feats for a bard though, if you're trying to use a bow or crossbow anyway. If you're a bard, you are probably going to be spending an action on inspire courage. This combo lets you recall knowledge while hunting prey, which is also an action you'll want to do if you are the party know it all. If you get lucky and crit success you don't need to inspire that round and could then cast a two action spell or do something like true strike and crossbow mastery.

If you're a caster bard, then by all means do something else. I was just pointing out the synergy if that is what you wanted to do.

I still disagree, and feel I've pointed out the flaws of the actions you're suggesting. Not that I wouldn't take those actions, it's that I wouldn't take multiple feats to take those actions.

If I were to do a Bard-archer, I'd take a different route.
Though for Ranger/MC Bard, yes, that's all good stuff.


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Played my enigma bard last night. Was fun but the GM started getting frustrated with my lore (everything and anything).

I am a Golarion and Pathfinder Society veteran in a group with a lot of players new to both so I'll be continuing to invest in the lores and other knowledge type feats to reflect me player knowledge of the world.


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More evidence that Studious Capacity only grants you one spell, period, per day rather than one spell per spell level is the new Divine Effusion feat in the Oracle playtest.

Divine Effusion feat wrote:
The power of your mystery surges through you like a font of energy, even when your magic dwindles. Twice per day, you can cast a spell after you’ve run out of spell slots of the appropriate spell level; the two spells you cast with this feat must be of different spell levels.

Same core language as Studious Capacity, but twice as strong, and it makes it clear that it means two individual spells, not two per spell level.


Xenocrat wrote:

More evidence that Studious Capacity only grants you one spell, period, per day rather than one spell per spell level is the new Divine Effusion feat in the Oracle playtest.

Divine Effusion feat wrote:
The power of your mystery surges through you like a font of energy, even when your magic dwindles. Twice per day, you can cast a spell after you’ve run out of spell slots of the appropriate spell level; the two spells you cast with this feat must be of different spell levels.
Same core language as Studious Capacity, but twice as strong, and it makes it clear that it means two individual spells, not two per spell level.

Good find!


Paradozen wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

Anyway, I think it's the best muse with all that random knowledge popping up and what not. I'd even consider having Cha on a Wizard or Alchemist just to get that Int on top of those rolls.

Cheers
Another way for wizards (and everyone else) is to get Unified Theory (level 15, legendary arcana), which will be a long wait but better once you get there. Maybe retrain out of bard once that gets on the table.

Unified Theory only works for spells, magic effects and items. Bardic lore works on anything. So Bardic Lore kicks in earlier and is far better.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Paradozen wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

Anyway, I think it's the best muse with all that random knowledge popping up and what not. I'd even consider having Cha on a Wizard or Alchemist just to get that Int on top of those rolls.

Cheers
Another way for wizards (and everyone else) is to get Unified Theory (level 15, legendary arcana), which will be a long wait but better once you get there. Maybe retrain out of bard once that gets on the table.
Unified Theory only works for spells, magic effects and items. Bardic lore works on anything. So Bardic Lore kicks in earlier and is far better.

There are a couple limitations on Bardic Lore:

1) "can be used only to Recall Knowledge"
2) "If you have legendary proficiency in Occultism, you gain expert proficiency in Bardic Lore, but you can’t increase your proficiency rank in Bardic Lore by any other means." (emphasis mine)

Of course, there's nothing preventing you from having both...

Especially with Arcane Sense, Multifarious Muse (Polymath), Esoteric Polymath, Magical Shorthand, Wizard Dedication, Basic Wizard Spellcasting, Arcane Breadth, Expert Wizard Spellcasting, and Master Wizard Spellcasting. A human (any heritage) can also take Adapted Cantrip (Divine or Primal) and Adaptive Adept; possibly also Multitalented (Cleric or Druid Dedication, choosing the opposite tradition from the one chosen with Adapted Cantrip) and the appropriate archetype spellcasting feats.


Dragonchess Player wrote:


Of course, there's nothing preventing you from having both...

Clearly, but as they are mutually exclusive, it's better not to be trained in Arcana, Society, Nature and Religion if you want to get the most out of Bardic Lore.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:


Of course, there's nothing preventing you from having both...
Clearly, but as they are mutually exclusive, it's better not to be trained in Arcana, Society, Nature and Religion if you want to get the most out of Bardic Lore.

Sorry, how is Legendary in Occultism checks and Expert in Bardic Lore "better" than Legendary in Arcana and Occultism checks, Legendary in Divine and Primal checks for items, magic effects, and spells, and Expert in Bardic Lore?

If this is a "you can't have both at 15th level and have to wait until 17th (or 18th if the character doesn't have access to the human General Training ancestry feat)" objection, that's a completely different argument. Which one to take first is a legitimate discussion point. If it's "getting Legendary in Arcana is not something I want to invest the skill increases in," that's a play-style/preference thing and not an objective "better/worse" argument.


Bardic Lore replaces the main use of Arcana, Religion, Society and Nature. If you get to Legendary in Arcana, you lose 25% of Bardic Lore uses. If you get Unified Theory, you remove another batch of uses. At some point, the question of getting rid of Bardic Lore and just get Trained in the remaining skills rises. That's what I meant.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Bardic Lore replaces the main use of Arcana, Religion, Society and Nature. If you get to Legendary in Arcana, you lose 25% of Bardic Lore uses. If you get Unified Theory, you remove another batch of uses. At some point, the question of getting rid of Bardic Lore and just get Trained in the remaining skills rises. That's what I meant.

Are you just talking about Monster Knowledge? If so, you left out Occultism. Also, there exist plenty of Recall Knowledge checks that don’t fall under those skills, or that a specific Lore would have a lower DC than the umbrella Skill; I would give Bardic Lore the loser DC in those situations. Finally, Religion and Nature are Wisdom based. Now, Wisdom is a very good ability score and tanking it is not advised, but if you want everything INT based, Bardic Lore does that.

Also, while it’s up for debate, I believe that Unified Theory only helps with Religion/Divine/Occultism on matters relating to the magical traditions, and not every Recall Knowledge tied to those skills.


How about a Cleric with Knowledge domain; then VM Bard for Enigma Muse for Bardic Lore at 4th; then Loremaster's Etude at 6th.

Seems likely to have enough staying power; even if, only 50/50 each roll?

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