Outflank Hunter VS Pack master Hunter Seeking Advice


Advice


I Have come to the conclusion that at some point I want to play A hunter

So I'D like to have an example build to base off of.

I am unsure if pack master or a AoO Outflank melee Hunter (No Archetype)
Would be a stronger option

I could use Advice on my Feats Planning on being a human


AoO Outflank melee. I played that from level 3 to 17 and she was a killing machine. I was playing a halfling though so I had a bigger selection on using my companion as a mount.

Even without using a mount, you can still get a lot out of a similar build.

Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Outflank, Pack Flanking, Paired Opportunists, Broken Wing Gambit, and Precise Strike. Since you'd probably be going dex based to get the most out of Combat Reflexes, you'll want Weapon Finesse and dex to damage. I took 4 levels of Unchained Rogue to get it myself. I used the talent Combat Trick one of the feats quicker and Weapon Training to get Weapon Focus. The trait Dirty Fighter gives an extra +1 damage when flanking that multiplies on a crit.


If your level 10 character had to fight to the death, and had the choice between two encounters, would you choose a CR 10 Xenarth Demon or ten lv 1 halflings?

If you want to win, you'll fight the ten halflings because they simply pose no threat to you. Their HP will be laughable, and their attacks won't hit or deal damage. That's the problem with the Packmaster archetype. It's simply not worth it to split your Animal Companion's effective level over several creatures.

So the Outflank melee Hunter is the stronger option.


Could I get some Advice then

On the outflank melee hunter

We usually start between 3 & 5 and stop between 9 and 10

I'D like to have a build planned out


This is the sheet I made for my hunter. Link I actually took the Unchained Rogue levels starting at level 9 so I took Dervish Dance for dex to damage at level 3. I retrained it when I got dex to damage from Rogue and the GM let me just take a different feat instead of retraining a second Weapon Finesse. To be honest, I never really used Butterfly's Sting all that much, I just rolled for the AoO chain.

If you want a decent amount of AoOs, you will want a nice amount of dex so going that way for attacks would save you in the point buy. And if you don't want to take any levels of Unchained Rogue, a quick dip of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler is great for quick dex to damage.


Speak to the rest of your party and suggest that the other melee characters might like to take outflank as well, particularly anyone with sneak attack. Then precise strike. Then win.


The biggest thing you can do for your group is tell them you'll be teamwork feat focused.

Because your pet will be teamwork feat focused too, this means 2 allies on the field. If the group looks into it, that's a lot of people that can share bonuses and enjoy feats full benefits.

Feats like boosting saves for adjacent allies are huge at any level. Therea dozens of feats to peek into and all of them are great if the group plans ahead and together to make a cohesive unit.


From what I can see, pack master is best to use if you want a tactical character that can give various team mates flank buddies and teamwork feat partners (assuming the party takes the same teamwork feats). However, you will always divide your attention and power between them, so your main role is making a teammate stronger.

note- I wouldn't go between two companions though, and I would seriously look into various feats to recover effective druid level.

The classic outflank hunter....is a blender. You get a ton of AoOs by abusing teamwork feats. Grab a nice meaty falchion, or a pointy rapier- depends on what you prefer (but high crit is the go to for more AoOs). This hunter is worthy as a main damage dealer.

I guess it depends on what your party brings- if you have teammates high high DPS melee builds and willing to go with teamwork feats, then pack master might be nice. If you face casters, archers, and people that just don't want to take the feats... outflank hunter is good at working on its own.


Packmaster is most effective when you have multiple animal companion progressions to work with. I started to create a guide for this type of build but gave up on it once I realized that it only really works when combined with certain classes and/or feats. Making the effective version of it pretty niche. Also, apparently some players feel that you're trying to "break the game" as soon as you have more then 1 effective minion. A large part of my intro became a defense against that sort of attitude.

But anyway, the point is its entirely possible its just a question of how much of your resources you want to invest into the concept. On the low end you can have 2 full level animal companions. On the high end you can have 5.

There's little reason you can't do packmaster and do an AoO Outflank melee hunter.


I mean....you can do both. With boon companion you can set aside 4 levels for just "scout or utility" companions with packmaster and still have a full power combat companion.

So you could like...have a wolf or t-rex or whatever at full combat, and then have a 4th level raven or other flying scout creature. You just basically only use your scout creature when you're going to be using improved empathic link, packmaster lets you move your abilities around to whichever companion is primary pretty easily.

edit: If you take it twice you can have a max level companion and an 8th level companion.

editedit: I guess the point being that nothing in the pack hunter archetype actually hinders the outflank hunter in any way. You just have one weaker animal companion that you can exploit for improved senses and scouting via whatever the name of that power that lets you see through their eyes.

Other than the abilities that give you options for allowing more than one companion at a time to benefit from your class abilites, they don't actually take away ANY of the class abilities. You could build just about any hunter build with packmaster tacked on. Its kind of like qigong monk except you dont double up on archetypes.


Ryan Freire wrote:

So you could like...have a wolf or t-rex or whatever at full combat, and then have a 4th level raven or other flying scout creature. You just basically only use your scout creature when you're going to be using improved empathic link, packmaster lets you move your abilities around to whichever companion is primary pretty easily.

edit: If you take it twice you can have a max level companion and an 8th level companion.

If you're going in that direction, boon companion x2 and the feat beast rider would let both of them get up to level 12 before it would start to lag.

Of course to be fair, if you're willing to invest that much into your animal companions it's possible to have two at full combat strength instead.

So how many feats, levels, etc. do you need for an "AoO outflank" hunter?


LordKailas wrote:


So how many feats, levels, etc. do you need for an "AoO outflank" hunter?

A minimum of 3 levels and 3 feats. Combat Reflexes, Outflank, and Paired Opportunists.


Heather 540 wrote:
LordKailas wrote:


So how many feats, levels, etc. do you need for an "AoO outflank" hunter?
A minimum of 3 levels and 3 feats. Combat Reflexes, Outflank, and Paired Opportunists.

I would add combat expertise and pack flanking as need.

Gravy feats

Improved critical

The feint chain


And don't forget Broken Wing Gambit for more AoOs.


You could probably do a variation of my mythic Pack Lord build then. Something like the following

Pack Lord Hunter (Cavalier/Hunter)

Spoiler:

Key concepts: A Hunter with two powerful beasts
Deity: Erastil
Race: Human
Racial Traits: Eye for Quality, Fey Magic, Fey Thoughts
Traits: Adopted->Tusked, Threatening Defender
Class: Cavalier (1), Hunter (3), Cavalier (3), Hunter(X)
Archetypes: Packmaster (Hunter), Mother’s Fang (Cavalier)
Key Feats: Auspicious Birth[Conjunction](1st), Combat Reflexes(3rd), Paired Opportunists(5th), Horse Master(7th), Snapping Flank(9th)
Bonus Feats: EWP Butchering Axe [Cavalier](1st), EWP Orc Hornbow [Cavalier](1st), Combat Expertise [Cavalier](1st), Pack Flanking[Cavalier](5th)
Bonus Team Work Feats: Precise Strike[Cavalier](1st), Outflank[Hunter](3rd), +1 # of Companions[Hunter](4th)
Suggested Teamwork Feat: Escape Route, Broken Wing Gambit, Blood for the Empire, Passing Grace, Bonded Mind, Duck and Cover, pack attack, Seize the Moment, Tribe Mentality
Suggested Feats: Deific Obedience, Diversified Obedience, Saoc Brethren Initiate, Favored Animal Focus, Totem Beast, Power Attack, Horn of the Criosphinx, Coordinated Charge, Battle Cry, Masked Renown, Planar Focus, Shield Focus, Unhindering Shield
Suggested Gear: General Gear: Mnemonic Vestment, Page of Spell Knowledge, Whet Bones, Equestrian Belt, Corset of Delicate Moves, Juggernaut’s Pauldrons, healer’s satchel, Cracked Magenta Prism (Ioun Stone), Ring of Tactical Precision, Vambraces of the Tactician, Commander's Helm, [Amulet of Menacing, Fortuitous Mighty Fists], Resplendent Uniform, Champion’s Banner, Ring of Sacred Mistletoe, Woodsman’s Clasp, Runestone of Power
Specialty Weapons: [+5 Shrinking, Impact, Growing Butchering Axe], War Lance, [+5 Resizing, Adaptive Orc hornbow]
Specialty Armor: Hosteling Rhino Hide/Mammoth Hide of Jousting

This build gives you two animal companions (one at your character level and the other one at your character level-4) that will benefit from all of your teamwork feats and the deviation into cavalier lets you pick up feats you want for free, specifically combat expertise, pack flanking and any one teamwork feat you want (in this case I chose precise strike).


Ryan Freire wrote:
Heather 540 wrote:
LordKailas wrote:


So how many feats, levels, etc. do you need for an "AoO outflank" hunter?
A minimum of 3 levels and 3 feats. Combat Reflexes, Outflank, and Paired Opportunists.

I would add combat expertise and pack flanking as need.

Gravy feats

Improved critical

The feint chain

I'd add in precise strike gor gravy too. 3.5 damage over 6+ attacks a round adds up.

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