MaxAstro wrote: Corvo, I think you have good points but that comment about "progressive twitter" is frankly a bit insulting to the people who are honestly participating in this discussion and I don't think it's helpful. Maybe a bit snide, but it wasn't meant to be insulting. Just an observation that it's the public forum where you're most likely to be called something as serious as racist over fictional characters. I could be wrong and there's a public space online that's more likely, but ever since tumblr died down and many people moved over to twitter as an alternative, I feel situations like these are happening more frequently. Where pointing out that orcs are stronger than haflings and dwarves tend to be tougher than the faster elves ends with the ones agreeing that is infact the nature of rule based systems with highly diverse ancestries.
The people who were honestly partaking in discussion, have been answered with "I'm out, this place is too racist." for pointing out things like, even if you give everyone same boosts, the ancestry feats still make elves smarter and faster, humans more adaptable and goblins more sneaky and mischevious.
Granted, snide comments might have no place here, but this is less disturbing than being called a racist for calling out physical differences in fictional character's anatomy where they obey different rules of both reality and culture.
Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
I have to agree, the calls of racism before were a bit hyperbolic.
Personally, I prefer when fantasy race differences are heightened as it lets you explore blue orange morality and other vastly different points of view.
this is probably veering highly off-topic at this point, but in the Sci-fi novel Uplift, humans have uplifted various animals on earth to sentience and sapience. Chief and trope setting among them, Dolphins. Dolphins are the best space and aircraft pilots on earth, why? they're naturally adapted to 3 dimensional maneuvers. I don't really feel like exploring that idea is racist.
I also don't think your races need to be as different from humans AS dolphins are either, sometimes being a race of hats but that ultimately lets you explore the hat being used.
Bandw2 wrote: I also don't think your races need to be as different from humans AS dolphins are either, sometimes being a race of hats but that ultimately lets you explore the hat being used. My preference, though it's often hard to pull off, is for such races to be as diverse as humans, but with the center of the curve shifted. Both when it comes to personality types and abilities (at least statwise - things like darkvision are essentially binary). Dwarves tend towards law compared to humans, but there's a lot of overlap. You can still have chaotic dwarves, but there will be less of them and the most extreme will be less so than the most extremely chaotic humans. Likewise the most lawful dwarves will be more so than human examples. The vast majority though fall within the broad range of human behavior.
Bandw2 wrote: I have to agree, the calls of racism before were a bit hyperbolic.
Personally, I prefer when fantasy race differences are heightened as it lets you explore blue orange morality and other vastly different points of view.
this is probably veering highly off-topic at this point, but in the Sci-fi novel Uplift, humans have uplifted various animals on earth to sentience and sapience. Chief and trope setting among them, Dolphins. Dolphins are the best space and aircraft pilots on earth, why? they're naturally adapted to 3 dimensional maneuvers. I don't really feel like exploring that idea is racist.
I also don't think your races need to be as different from humans AS dolphins are either, sometimes being a race of hats but that ultimately lets you explore the hat being used.
Eclipse Phase?
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Corvo Spiritwind wrote: Bandw2 wrote: I have to agree, the calls of racism before were a bit hyperbolic.
Personally, I prefer when fantasy race differences are heightened as it lets you explore blue orange morality and other vastly different points of view.
this is probably veering highly off-topic at this point, but in the Sci-fi novel Uplift, humans have uplifted various animals on earth to sentience and sapience. Chief and trope setting among them, Dolphins. Dolphins are the best space and aircraft pilots on earth, why? they're naturally adapted to 3 dimensional maneuvers. I don't really feel like exploring that idea is racist.
I also don't think your races need to be as different from humans AS dolphins are either, sometimes being a race of hats but that ultimately lets you explore the hat being used.
Eclipse Phase? My favourite character was Doc Oc but actually an octopus.
Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The simplest way I can think of for eliminating ancestry based racial flaws would be to make ancestry boosts for non-human ancestries work like the background boosts -- so, for example, the boosts for the Elf ancestry might be "one ability boost to either dexterity or intelligence, and one freely chosen ability boost". The ability boosts for humans could then either be left as they are or restricted to one physical ability and one mental ability of choice.
Malk_Content wrote: Corvo Spiritwind wrote: Bandw2 wrote: I have to agree, the calls of racism before were a bit hyperbolic.
Personally, I prefer when fantasy race differences are heightened as it lets you explore blue orange morality and other vastly different points of view.
this is probably veering highly off-topic at this point, but in the Sci-fi novel Uplift, humans have uplifted various animals on earth to sentience and sapience. Chief and trope setting among them, Dolphins. Dolphins are the best space and aircraft pilots on earth, why? they're naturally adapted to 3 dimensional maneuvers. I don't really feel like exploring that idea is racist.
I also don't think your races need to be as different from humans AS dolphins are either, sometimes being a race of hats but that ultimately lets you explore the hat being used.
Eclipse Phase? My favourite character was Doc Oc but actually an octopus. Our octopus was a mechanic and if he was angry at you he'd detach his mating tentacle and throw it at you. No one won those days.
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Race and Ancestry threads can get problematic very quickly and it would appear this thread is not an exception.
As a form of entertainment, media (including ttRPGs), influences and shapes how we collectively perceive the world around us. If you are not interested in discussing a topic, such as addressing racism in RPGs, you do not need to come into the thread and debate the necessity of the topic. Treating the topic of racism in RPGs as a joke, being dismissive of concerns, or stating that something is not racist because you do not see it, are all types of responses that continue a cycle of systemic racism and are not the types of comments that we are interested in hosting on our forums.
Everyone is raised with and steeped in a wide variety of assumptions about the world around them. Sometimes these assumptions can be racist without the people who hold the assumptions aware that they are based in racist tropes or stereotypes, and when someone says that something is or seems racist, they are not necessarily making a value judgment on the person who said it, or saying that the person is a racist. When someone says "that's racist," or "I feel like that might be racist," we are not interested in responses that are argumentative, dismissive, self-centric, mocking, or derisive. Those types of responses do not make our community feel safe and welcoming.
Racism is a societal problem that individuals can actively work to fight against.
If someone says "that's racist," or "I feel like that might be racist," and you do not understand how or why, here are some things to consider before you post a response:
Do you understand why someone might consider it racist?
If yes, just go ahead and stop typing, we don't want racist arguments on our forums, and we don't need devil's advocates to give us hypothetical racism either.
If no, did they already explain why its racist in a prior or follow up post?
If no, can you do a quick internet search to see if you can find some context as to why something might be racist? (Some subjects are easier that others to find explanations for).
If you do not understand, you are not able to find an explanation, and getting into a discussion about something is not derailing the entire discussion, try phrases like, "I'm not sure why this might be racist. Can you help me understand or point me in the direction of a resource?"
Keep in mind that someone explaining why something is racist, has probably had to do so multiple times, and likely has experienced the exhaustion of explaining racism to people who don't believe it's problematic. Take the burden off of them as much as you are able and do your best to self reflect and educate.
If someone makes a comment that is racist or contains racism, here are some things to consider before you post:
Did you misread part or all of the text? Did they mistype something? Sometimes missing a word (while reading or writing) can dramatically change the meaning of text. Obviously you can't tell what other people meant to type, but sometimes you can tell when this happens if they post something totally incongruous with what they usually write.
Has their comment/post already been addressed by other posters?
Have you flagged the post? Do not assume other people have flagged a post and therefore your flag probably won't matter, if everyone thought that, nothing would get flagged.
Do you have the emotional reservoirs to address the issue? If you do, consider the type of response best suited to the situation. Particularly when it comes to phrases or terms, it may be the easiest response to simply quote & link to resources that have already written out an explanation.
Remember to take care of yourself.
I'm going to leave this thread closed.
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