| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
May this can answer:
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a bit of a strange one. I've recently been in a bit of an argument where the other person is claiming that the shuriken's reload time of 0 is a typo and it should have a reload of "-" like all other thrown weapons.
Making shuriken have 'reload -' would cause Shooting Stars Stance to be nearly unusable.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's been no discussion about it that I'm aware of, no developer comment to suggest there's anything wrong with the Shuriken, nor has it been touched upon in the three errata passes the CRB has received so far.
There's nothing really to suggest that it's a typo.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've recently been in a bit of an argument where the other person is claiming that the shuriken's reload time of 0 is a typo and it should have a reload of "-" like all other thrown weapons.
I think that the Reload Trait itself is the problematic element here, not Shuriken.
People are constantly arguing whether you still Interact with a Reload 0 weapon, which can matter for some reactions, as well as ignoring the Flat Check from being Grabbed.
I would work with your group to reword how Reload works, and while you're at it, you can add Shuriken in addition to "ammunition".
Interesting that the information on "reload" at Nefreet's link says nothing about "reload -". So where is that defined?
Seems to me "reload 0" basically says that "reloading" takes no actions. Why is that a problem?
Reload
Source Core Rulebook pg. 279
While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn.
An item with an entry of “—” must be drawn to be thrown, which usually takes an Interact action just like drawing any other weapon. Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand. Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
EDIT: As to why some see reload 0 as an issue as that some claim because it's not it's own action but part of a the attack it no longer has the normal traits of a reload action, meaning it wouldn't have the Manipulate trait and just somehow gets from stored to your hand without you touching it. Others see it as becoming a subordinate action within the attack and as such it keeps it's traits.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't see anything in the rules that suggests that something loses its traits just because it's part of another action.
If you search this Forum you'll find plenty of discussions on the topic. It's fine to pick a side, so long as you understand what the other side is.
And I'll add it's important to consider Mobile Shot Stance re: Reactions, which IMO decides the core question.
Or not. If you decide that the stance is badly designed and should have included removing reactions to reloading reload 0 weapons too.If you search this Forum you'll find plenty of discussions on the topic. It's fine to pick a side, so long as you understand what the other side is.And I'll add it's important to consider Mobile Shot Stance re: Reactions, which IMO decides the core question.
Or you just realize that the stance does NOTHNG for any reloads so there is no reason reload 0 weapons to be special: mobile shot doesn't help a crossbow or pistol avoid reactions vs their reloads so why would it do so for bows?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would say something about keeping the conversation to the threads that already exist on this topic, but this thread needs to die anyway.
Or you just realize that the stance does NOTHNG for any reloads so there is no reason reload 0 weapons to be special: mobile shot doesn't help a crossbow or pistol avoid reactions vs their reloads so why would it do so for bows?
Ruling it that way makes Mobile Shot Stance distinctly worse for bows than for crossbows/firearms. Because crossbows/firearms can be reloaded while not in reaction range. Then if you need to fire it while in melee reach of an enemy with AoO, it won't provoke the reaction. With a reload 0 weapon the only way to fire it at all is to reload it at that exact same action time and therefore in that exact same location.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ruling it that way makes Mobile Shot Stance distinctly worse for bows than for crossbows/firearms.
*shrug* So? Not every feat is going to be equally good for all options. I'm 100% fine with bow NOT being the best weapon for every feat/option.
Secondly, I don't see why you couldn't take an Interact action to reload your bow: nothing says you can't take longer to reload than the minimum action cost [it just doesn't benefit you do do so 99% of the time]. For instance, I doubt many DM are going to tell you that you can't load your bow before the party opens a door just because you aren't immediately attacking someone.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The entire Gunslinger class is built with the idea that using a bow isn't always the best option.
But if Mobile Shot Stance was supposed to not work with bows at all then it should actually list that it doesn't work with bows. Otherwise it is just a confusing and trappish option that requires a very thorough reading of the rules to realize that it doesn't actually work the way it is presented.
The appeal to balance/fairness seems misplaced. Bows are already so many miles ahead of reload weapons that any time an ambiguous ruling might work against the former or in favor of the latter, it seems like a no brainer to go that way.
But if Mobile Shot Stance was supposed to not work with bows at all
It does exactly what it says regardless of which way you land on this ruling.
It does exactly what it says regardless of which way you land on this ruling.
But if Mobile Shot Stance was supposed to not work with bows at all
LOL. Technically, yes it does.
While you’re in this stance, your ranged Strikes don’t trigger Attacks of Opportunity or other reactions that are triggered by a ranged attack.
But if you read that from a perspective of someone who isn't a rules expert, it certainly sounds like it is saying that you can make attacks with a bow without provoking reactions.
But HAH GOTCHA - you forgot about reload.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But if Mobile Shot Stance was supposed to not work with bows at all then it should actually list that it doesn't work with bows.
This is just false: it does EXACTLY what it says for bows AND other weapons. For instance, Sepid has a reaction that triggers off of "A creature hits the sepid with a ranged Strike or a ranged spell attack roll." A Etioling Blightmage has a reaction with Trigger: "The etioling is the target of a physical ranged attack". Sylph Sneak has Deflecting Gale: "Trigger The sylph sneak is the target of a physical ranged attack". Japalisura has Return Arrow: Trigger "The japalisura is targeted by a ranged attack from a bow". Cloud Dragons have Deflecting Cloud: "Trigger The dragon is the target of a ranged attack". Castoroides has a Slap: "Trigger The castoroides is targeted by a physical ranged Strike from an attacker it can see". Kirin has a Deflecting Gale : "Trigger The kirin is targeted with a ranged Strike". Doprillu has Deflect Arrow: Trigger "The doprillu is the target of a physical ranged attack". Giant Fly has Avoid the Swat: Trigger "The giant fly is targeted with a melee or ranged attack by an attacker it can see". Ice Yai has Icy Deflection: Trigger "The ice yai is targeted by a ranged Strike or spell attack roll that doesn't have the fire trait". Reborn Sun Hunter has Nimble Dodge: Trigger "The sun hunter is targeted with a melee or ranged attack by an attacker they can see". Somnalu has Baleful Gaze: Trigger "A creature within 100 feet makes a ranged attack or uses an action that has the concentrate trait". Temteki has Interposing Earth: Trigger "Temteki is targeted with a melee or ranged attack from an attacker it can see".
For NPC's Abbot Tsujon has Negate Projectiles: Trigger "Abbot Tsujon is the target of a ranged attack". Spinel Leviathan Syndara and Syndara The Sculptor have Portal Redirection: Trigger "Syndara is targeted by a ranged Strike or spell attack roll". Syu Tak-Nwa (Level 20) has Spiraling Web: Trigger "Syu Tak-nwa is the target of a ranged Strike or ranged spell attack roll". Mialari Docur has Nimble Dodge" "Trigger Mialari is targeted with a melee or ranged attack by an attacker she can see". Scarlet Triad Sniper has Backshot: Trigger "A creature the sniper can see misses it with a ranged weapon Strike." Acrobat, Agile Warrior, Ajbal Kimon, Assassin, Burglar, Muruwa, Shino Hakusa and Yana No-Trail have Nimble Dodge Trigger: "The acrobat is targeted with a melee or ranged attack by an attacker they can see". Glaz “Brick Blaster” Nixbrix has Leap Away: Trigger "Nixbrix is targeted with a ranged attack". Scarlet Triad Boss has Return Fire: Trigger "The Scarlet Triad boss is the target of a physical ranged attack".
People always hyper-focus on Attack of Opportunity and seem to ignore that there are a LOT of other reactions out there and lots of them trigger of a ranged attack but not a Reload...
EDIT: saw your comment "If we continue this for much longer, I recommend we all flag our own posts as baiting" after my post went through. We can stop here if you wish as I don't know what the exact rule/etiquette is for a thread that can't fulfill it's intended purpose anymore.
EDIT: saw your comment "If we continue this for much longer, I recommend we all flag our own posts as baiting" after my post went through. We can stop here if you wish as I don't know what the exact rule/etiquette is for a thread that can't fulfill it's intended purpose anymore.
Heh. That's why I suggest flagging our own posts. If it was an etiquette problem, I would just flag the other posts and not continue the conversation. But flagging my own posts is just trolling the moderators into maybe doing something about this thread.
You are all [insert personal attack here].
|
Magic Aura contains this text "A caster using detect magic or read aura of an equal or higher spell level can attempt to disbelieve the illusion from magic aura." whereas both of those spells contain this text "You detect illusion magic only if that magic’s effect has a lower level than the level of your detect magic/read aura spell." Which is correct?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They could both be correct, with Magic Aura's text acting as a specific exception to how detect magic works by being easier to detect.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, thank goodness it finally got locked!
...
...Now hold on a second...
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just flagged the Paizo moderators comment as Baiting ....
Sorry but couldn't resist.