Does MAP apply to combat maneuver checks?


Rules Discussion


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My group and I can't work out if you apply the multiple attack penalty (MAP) to Athletics checks for maneuvers like shove and trip.

On page 446, it says "The second time you use an attack action during your turn, you take a -5 penalty on your attack roll." However, while the Shove and Trip actions have the attack trait, you're making an Athletics check, not an attack roll.

Also on page 446, it says there are "three main types" of attack roll: melee attack rolls, ranged attack rolls and spell attack rolls, but it does not mention any of the Athletics actions.

It's completely clear that making one of these skill checks contributes to MAP, so a Shove then a Strike would incur a -5 penalty on the Strike, but if you Strike and then Shove, do you get -5 on the Athletics check?

I'm sorry if there's a thread on this already - I looked through the first few pages and didn't see anything obvious on it.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The maneuvers all have the Attack trait, and thus suffer and generate all the usual MAP.


I think "attack roll" term is now more as a "roll against AC".
While "attack actions" are any that have the "Attack" trait.

Bit different, but also kind of easier to differentiate now.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's worth pointing out that the phrase "combat maneuver" doesn't appear in the CRB, that's a PF1 concept. But as mentioned above, anything with the attack trait uses MAP unless explicitly called out not to do so (like for attacks or opportunity).

CRB page 446 wrote:
Every check that has the attack trait counts toward your multiple attack penalty, including Strikes, spell attack rolls, certain skill actions like Shove, and many others.

Exo-Guardians

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Fumarole wrote:

It's worth pointing out that the phrase "combat maneuver" doesn't appear in the CRB, that's a PF1 concept. But as mentioned above, anything with the attack trait uses MAP unless explicitly called out not to do so (like for attacks or opportunity).

CRB page 446 wrote:
Every check that has the attack trait counts toward your multiple attack penalty, including Strikes, spell attack rolls, certain skill actions like Shove, and many others.

Yep, this is where the Traits system comes in handy. No need to try and parse out what "counts as" what based on the wording-- if it has the Attack trait it's an attack and counts toward MAP. Simple as that!


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Saros Palanthios wrote:
Fumarole wrote:

It's worth pointing out that the phrase "combat maneuver" doesn't appear in the CRB, that's a PF1 concept. But as mentioned above, anything with the attack trait uses MAP unless explicitly called out not to do so (like for attacks or opportunity).

CRB page 446 wrote:
Every check that has the attack trait counts toward your multiple attack penalty, including Strikes, spell attack rolls, certain skill actions like Shove, and many others.
Yep, this is where the Traits system comes in handy. No need to try and parse out what "counts as" what based on the wording-- if it has the Attack trait it's an attack and counts toward MAP. Simple as that!

I'd say the trait system is one of the best improvements from first edition. It should really cut down on the number of rules question threads.


As the OP says, as written, trip is counted for the MAP, but the MAP is specifically described as a penality to attack rolls.

Trip is an athletics check vs fortitude. Nothing close to an attack roll. If you read this text like a logical machine, Trip counts towards MAP but is not affected by it.

BUt I'm pretty sure it,s meant to affect it. The correct way to write it would've been a penality to attack actions. Or actions with the Attack trait.


Fireflash51 wrote:

As the OP says, as written, trip is counted for the MAP, but the MAP is specifically described as a penality to attack rolls.

Trip is an athletics check vs fortitude. Nothing close to an attack roll. If you read this text like a logical machine, Trip counts towards MAP but is not affected by it.

BUt I'm pretty sure it,s meant to affect it. The correct way to write it would've been a penality to attack actions. Or actions with the Attack trait.

I think the attack trait makes it pretty clear what's intended.

We are not computers, if we don't try to analyze the text is an overly legalistic manner it's pretty easy to see the intention.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm very much a "rules as intended" GM, rather than "rules as written", but in this case, I'm really not sure what was intended, which is why I started the thread.

As previously stated, I'm completely clear on Trip, Shove, etc. contributing to the MAP. But the text saying that MAP applies to "attack rolls", and the description of attack rolls being against AC is what has me confused.

As written, I'd have to rule that MAP does not apply to these Athletics actions, but as intended, I'm really not sure.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Oh wait, one of my players just found text in the appendix (pg 629) that says

"Attack (trait): An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty."

I think that clears it up - the intention is that you do take the penalty on all actions with that trait. If they'd used that text in the main chapter, it would have been a lot clearer.

Thanks for your help, everyone!

Exo-Guardians

Fireflash51 wrote:

As the OP says, as written, trip is counted for the MAP, but the MAP is specifically described as a penality to attack rolls.

Trip is an athletics check vs fortitude. Nothing close to an attack roll. If you read this text like a logical machine, Trip counts towards MAP but is not affected by it.

BUt I'm pretty sure it,s meant to affect it. The correct way to write it would've been a penality to attack actions. Or actions with the Attack trait.

If you're rolling for an action that has the Attack trait, it's an Attack roll...

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