Inspire courage interacting with spells


Rules Discussion


Okay so 1e had a ruling where inspire courage wouldn't work with auto hit spells (IE magic missile) since it specifically called out weapon rolls. In 2e, inspire courage says it still adds +1 to damage rolls.
My local GM views this as meaning autohit spells still do not get +1 damage, since it would cause inspire courage to become op (fireball +1 damaging 30 enemies would create +30 damage). My viewing is it's a status bonus, which still gets added to autohit damage spells.

Has there been an official ruling on how spells that don't require an attack roll interact with inspire courage?


Well its a status +1. I see no reason it wouldn't apply to anything and everything. Doesn't specify a method of attack or attack type.

SO it should be all I guess.
no clue if intended.


Interesting. I never even considered that it would apply to spells at all (played PF1 for too long, I guess).

But you are right, by RAW it does apply to all damage rolls. It's a flat +1 damage with no mention of it working only on things that have an attack roll.

Tell your GM that a fireball hitting 30 enemies deals 180d6 (630 average) damage and is completely OP anyway. That +1 damage per enemy really won't matter like 99% of the time. It's less than 5% damage increase. At level 5 that's about as much as a melee character swinging a striking d12 weapon gets out of Inspire Courage per Strike, so it's perfectly fine.


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The hell kind of games is that GM running where he packs 30 enemies into fireball formation?!?


That was more of an exaggeration to prove his point. This is all being done in Pathfinder Society, where GM makes final decision.

Sczarni

Arachnofiend wrote:
The hell kind of games is that GM running where he packs 30 enemies into fireball formation?!?

The craziest kind.

I believe the question mostly applies to spells other then the fireball example.

Does Magic Missile do an additional +1 damage per missile or just on one missile?

On Acid Arrow Spell you deal 3d8 acid damage plus 1d6 Persistent acid damage, does the Persistent acid damage also benefit from the inspire? If it does:
What if the person does not make the flat DC15 check(to end persistent condition) before the inspire runs out(through Lingering Performance focus power), does the damage go down or does it continue at the elevated rate?

It is not particularly clear as to how it applies to situations like those. I was at the table and the GMs position has merit.


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Coraith wrote:
Does Magic Missile do an additional +1 damage per missile or just on one missile?

Magic missile says "If you shoot more than one missile at the same target, combine the damage before applying bonuses or penalties to damage, resistances, weaknesses, and so forth.". So to get +1 damage per missile, you'd need to shoot each one at a different enemy, which will do hardly more than tickle anyone, even with the +1.

Quote:
On Acid Arrow Spell you deal 3d8 acid damage plus 1d6 Persistent acid damage, does the Persistent acid damage also benefit from the inspire?

But the same question would apply to all persistent damage rolls caused by the party, not only that of spells. The way I see it, you get the +1 damage to the initial 3d8. The persistent damage isn't directly caused by you, but by the condition "persistent damage". So the damage bonus doesn't apply to it. And the initial question was about spells that hit automatically, which Acid Arrow doesn't.

Also, if +1 damage (which still costs you an action) imbalances spells, I guess Dangerous Sorcery must be the best feat in the game by a mile. That one adds up to +10 damage.

I'm honestly not sure if the damage bonus Inspire Courage is intended to apply to spells at all (with out without spell attack roll) but I'm 100% sure it won't break anything.

Sczarni

Blave wrote:
And the initial question was about spells that hit automatically, which Acid Arrow doesn't.

The OP is a player at my FLGS. I don't believe he intended to specifically ask about spells that don't require an attack rolls, but rather "Is Inspire Courage intended to work with all spell damage rolls?"

As the book says its just a flat +1 damage to damage rolls. The GM's position was if it did, does magic missile then do 1d4+2 damage per missile when shot against different targets? What about fireball? so on and so forth.

These are the questions we had, hence our lovely trip to the forum.


Jaytuple wrote:
Has there been an official ruling on how spells that don't require an attack roll interact with inspire courage?

Well, intended or not, he pretty specifically asked that. :)

And again, I don't claim to know that Inspire Courage's damage bonus is MEANT to apply spells. I'm just saying it does by RAW since it doesn't mention anything about being exclusive to weapon damage, physical damage or the like.

And I stand by my assessment that it really won't matter 99% of the time. The damage bonus is much more noticeable on martial characters who on average deal less damage per hit, but hit more often.

It could totally need some clarification in that regard, though.


Given spells in a lot of ways work more like normal attacks this go round I honestly don't see much reason why it would not affect them.

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I'm the GM in question. And my take at the time was "I don't think it works the way you believe it does, so for now it'll just be +1 to damage on spells with attack rolls, etc." My ruling didn't cause the OP to be ineffective during the game (far from it, he was one of the MVPs of the slot), nor did it cause any enemies to survive with 1 HP left. It was just a ruling I made because it made sense to me and to keep the game moving so we could finish our slot on time.

The system is about two weeks old, it's our second time ever playing it, and it's ultimately 1 point of damage. We're all just trying to understand how the game works and have a good time.

In fact, after the game I then encouraged him to post here to hopefully attract an answer from a larger audience. The real questions I have are:

Does it work with persistent damage?
Does it work with AOE spells?
Does it work with splash damage on a bomb?
What does it not work, if anything? EX: Fall damage from a Bull Rush.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion thus far. I don't think it breaks the game one way or the other, but I'm fairly sure it was designed to either not allow these things or to allow them -- and that's the answer I seek. At the end of the day, I told the OP to expect table variation and that ultimately, it is just one point of damage. Maybe we won't have a designer chime in here, but it would be nice for the OP and others seeking to understand the landscape of PFv2.


Perseonally I think it works w ith AOE, and direct damage spells.

With the exception of the "main target splash damage"--persistent damage and splash damage are not directly caused by the player so they aren't boosted. Both PD and SD are more or less explicitly effects of attacks not the attacks.

So, I would say directly caused yes, effects from player actions no. Becausue the book makes some distinction about rider effects. Both the persistent damage and splash damage occur outside of player control.

I'll have to look it up later but I remember when making my DOT bomber that I saw a line in the persistent damage about it being caused by things but it wasnt the t hing. Which was suported because you have to get specific items or magic or feats to apply bonuses to those effects.


Generally splash damage is a set number so bonuses to a "roll" wouldn't apply no matter what. Feats like barbarian's thrash also wouldn't benefit.


There seems to be a 2e dev stream tonight, so hopefully the question will finally be answered for sure!


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WalterGM wrote:

I'm the GM in question. And my take at the time was "I don't think it works the way you believe it does, so for now it'll just be +1 to damage on spells with attack rolls, etc." My ruling didn't cause the OP to be ineffective during the game (far from it, he was one of the MVPs of the slot), nor did it cause any enemies to survive with 1 HP left. It was just a ruling I made because it made sense to me and to keep the game moving so we could finish our slot on time.

The system is about two weeks old, it's our second time ever playing it, and it's ultimately 1 point of damage. We're all just trying to understand how the game works and have a good time.

In fact, after the game I then encouraged him to post here to hopefully attract an answer from a larger audience. The real questions I have are:

Does it work with persistent damage?
Does it work with AOE spells?
Does it work with splash damage on a bomb?
What does it not work, if anything? EX: Fall damage from a Bull Rush.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion thus far. I don't think it breaks the game one way or the other, but I'm fairly sure it was designed to either not allow these things or to allow them -- and that's the answer I seek. At the end of the day, I told the OP to expect table variation and that ultimately, it is just one point of damage. Maybe we won't have a designer chime in here, but it would be nice for the OP and others seeking to understand the landscape of PFv2.

The way written until there is a errata, any damage directly caused by the player. A player bull rushing does not cause fall damage, they cause a move. AOE gets any other bonus damage like from the goblin ancestry feat so yes, it would still apply to the damage. Splash damage is part of the damage of a bomb caused by and required by the bomb thrown by the player. And, sadly no to persistent damage. It is not a action caused by the player that round. If it was some sort of sustained spell then yes, but otherwise no. Sadly, all of this needs a errata for clarification, but, as written it effects any specific damage they do with a action.

And as already stated, it would only give a +1 to each enemy hit from magic missile.

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