No class feats at 1st level for casters other than wizard?


Rules Discussion

Grand Lodge

Looking over the classes, am I reading it correctly that none of the full casters except the Wizard get class feats at level 1?


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Bards get a feat from their muse.

Clerics get a feat from their doctrine.

Druids get a feat from their order.

Sorcerers get screwed.


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Level 1 Hooman Wizard does that on steroids:
Hooman can get a class feat 1
Wizard gains a class feat 1
Universalist gains a class feat 1
Metamagic thesis grants a class feat 1(metamagic) and a scaling class feat (metamagic) that scales with level and can be changed daily.

1st level net gain: 4 class feats 1's and 1 scaling metamagic feat at 4th.


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Blave wrote:

Bards get a feat from their muse.

Clerics get a feat from their doctrine.

Druids get a feat from their order.

Sorcerers get screwed.

Sorcerers get the equivalent of Eschew Materials (wizard class feat) for free.


Blave wrote:

Bards get a feat from their muse.

Clerics get a feat from their doctrine.

Druids get a feat from their order.

Sorcerers get screwed.

I think that their bloodline is meant to be the "feat" they get. You pick it much like you choose your order or your doctrine/domain.

Still seems a bit odd that the wizard gets an extra 1st-level feat now that they have arcane thesis, though.


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David knott 242 wrote:
Sorcerers get the equivalent of Eschew Materials (wizard class feat) for free.

Yeah, I know. That's why I said they get screwed. That feat is worth 5 sp. 1 sp if you're a divine sorc. 0 if you're primal.

I know there are some situation where somatic is better than material, but those are quite specific. And there aren't even that many spells with material components anymore.

Not to mention that even if you count this as Eschew Materials and ignore how extremely limited/situational and weak it is as a feat, a sorcerer would still be the only caster class who doesn't ge to chose their feat in any way. Feats you don't get to chose in any way are usually class features.

EDIT: Just to be clear: I'm perfectly fine with the sorcerer not having a 1st level feat. Still doesn't change the fact that it's hard to find any reason for it. Their bloodline doesn't really give them anything above what the other classes get.


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There's nothing stopping you, in your home games, from awarding some or all players with an additional 1st-level class feat. I'm seriously considering it.


Wheldrake wrote:
There's nothing stopping you, in your home games, from awarding some or all players with an additional 1st-level class feat. I'm seriously considering it.

I had an idea for a "gestalt" vibe, giving players a few free feats that can only be used on multiclass archetypes. Now that's everything pretty modular and such, it's easier to tweak one part without wrecking another. Mostly.

Grand Lodge

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I mean, Sorcerers do receive their 1st level focus spells for their bloodline, which feels comparable to, say, a bard getting one feat from their muse.


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The Drunken Dragon wrote:
I mean, Sorcerers do receive their 1st level focus spells for their bloodline, which feels comparable to, say, a bard getting one feat from their muse.

I would be perfectly fine exchanging the 1st level focus spell for a feat. With several bloodlines, I would prefer it.


Bluescale wrote:
The Drunken Dragon wrote:
I mean, Sorcerers do receive their 1st level focus spells for their bloodline, which feels comparable to, say, a bard getting one feat from their muse.
I would be perfectly fine exchanging the 1st level focus spell for a feat. With several bloodlines, I would prefer it.

Not to mention that all bards gain a focus power even before they choose a muse.

Grand Lodge

I am in the process of building a divine sorcerer for PFS2, and feel rather cheated...and I am now completely re-thinking my character choices.


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Slyme wrote:
I am in the process of building a divine sorcerer for PFS2, and feel rather cheated...and I am now completely re-thinking my character choices.

Don't. Unless you're casting Arcane spells, the sorcerer is still the one with the most spells per day (ok, at the vey early level a cleric with decent charisma have a few more).

I personally also find the sorcerer to have the best casting focsed feat selection of all classes. Especially all the evolution feats.


The Drunken Dragon wrote:
I mean, Sorcerers do receive their 1st level focus spells for their bloodline, which feels comparable to, say, a bard getting one feat from their muse.

Wizard gets a focus spell and a feat and a thesis.

To be honest it seems like Paizo is just valuing spontaneous casting especially highly as a class feature.


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Squiggit wrote:
The Drunken Dragon wrote:
I mean, Sorcerers do receive their 1st level focus spells for their bloodline, which feels comparable to, say, a bard getting one feat from their muse.

Wizard gets a focus spell and a feat and a thesis.

To be honest it seems like Paizo is just valuing spontaneous casting especially highly as a class feature.

This has always been the case and was true in 3rd as well

I am not certain I understand it but at least they don’t get delayed spell progression anymore ...


I think Paizo is appropriately valuing spontaneous casting with heightened spells vs. prepared. A 5th level sorcerer has 6 spells he can cast in any combination from his third level spell slots vs. three spells prepared for a specialist wizard or two for a universality. That's a lot of flexibility to go along with generally better focus spells that are easier to refresh.

Grand Lodge

Unless I am mistaken, you have to use up one of your spell repertoire slots for every level you want a heightened spell to be castable at, other than your signature spells. That is pretty limiting, you may get more shots per day, but you get a small fraction of the potential versatility.


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Slyme wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, you have to use up one of your spell repertoire slots for every level you want a heightened spell to be castable at, other than your signature spells. That is pretty limiting, you may get more shots per day, but you get a small fraction of the potential versatility.

Yes, your actual versatility is only ten times as much as the wizard instead of 50 times as much if you received your full potential. I’m so sorry this is happening to you.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Slyme wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, you have to use up one of your spell repertoire slots for every level you want a heightened spell to be castable at, other than your signature spells. That is pretty limiting, you may get more shots per day, but you get a small fraction of the potential versatility.
Yes, your actual versatility is only ten times as much as the wizard instead of 50 times as much if you received your full potential. I’m so sorry this is happening to you.

That's a opinion, and a bit aggressive for no real reason. Unless you have a reason that they are more versatile?


Xenocrat wrote:
I think Paizo is appropriately valuing spontaneous casting with heightened spells vs. prepared. A 5th level sorcerer has 6 spells he can cast in any combination from his third level spell slots vs. three spells prepared for a specialist wizard or two for a universality. That's a lot of flexibility to go along with generally better focus spells that are easier to refresh.

Small point of order, it's actually five spells at 5th level, not six. Our sorc doesn't get their next spell slot to round out to six until 6th level.

Edited because I goofered on my math.

Grand Lodge

Blave wrote:
Slyme wrote:
I am in the process of building a divine sorcerer for PFS2, and feel rather cheated...and I am now completely re-thinking my character choices.

Don't. Unless you're casting Arcane spells, the sorcerer is still the one with the most spells per day (ok, at the vey early level a cleric with decent charisma have a few more).

Huh? What do you mean? I think Wizards get the same or more with Arcane Bond?


Varun Creed wrote:
Blave wrote:
Slyme wrote:
I am in the process of building a divine sorcerer for PFS2, and feel rather cheated...and I am now completely re-thinking my character choices.

Don't. Unless you're casting Arcane spells, the sorcerer is still the one with the most spells per day (ok, at the vey early level a cleric with decent charisma have a few more).

Huh? What do you mean? I think Wizards get the same or more with Arcane Bond?

They do, they're just fixed rather than being which ever of the three or four options the sorcerer wants at the time.


Varun Creed wrote:
Blave wrote:

Unless you're casting Arcane spells, the sorcerer is still the one with the most spells per day (ok, at the vey early level a cleric with decent charisma have a few more).

Huh? What do you mean? I think Wizards get the same or more with Arcane Bond?

That's why I wrote "Unless you're casting Arcane spells" ;)

Sorcerers have more spells then bards, clerics and druids, giving them the highest number of occult/divine/primal spells each day.


And arcane sorcs have the easiest way of getting new spells known of all the different flavors to compensate. Arcane Evolution lets you swap stuff out in your spell repertoire pretty easily.


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Per Pathfinder Fridays today, the Wizard getting a first level feat on the class chart was an error which will be corrected in the first update.

So no casters will get first level feats, save for what is granted by their order, school specialization, muse, etc.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Per Pathfinder Fridays today, the Wizard getting a first level feat on the class chart was an error which will be corrected in the first update.

So no casters will get first level feats, save for what is granted by their order, school specialization, muse, etc.

That stinks. I've got to redo my Wizard builds now. :(

What are Pathfinder Fridays?

Grand Lodge

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Why do they even bother writing 1st level feats for them then? Why not have all the 1st level feats just be 2nd level feats, since you can't take a feat til then anyways? Seems like terrible writing.


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Slyme wrote:
Why do they even bother writing 1st level feats for them then? Why not have all the 1st level feats just be 2nd level feats, since you can't take a feat til then anyways? Seems like terrible writing.

Because things other than your class chart can give you a first level feat. Humans have an ancestry feat that gives you one, Universalist Wizards get to pick one in lieu of a focus spell, Druids and Bards get a first level feat from their Order/Muse and other things in the future might grant one.

Plus, your GM might just want to give people extra feats because that's a variant they like.

So all classes get first level feats printed, you might just not get one depending on how you construct your character.


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Slyme wrote:
Why do they even bother writing 1st level feats for them then? Why not have all the 1st level feats just be 2nd level feats, since you can't take a feat til then anyways? Seems like terrible writing.

Two words. Natural. Ambition.

(Human feat to get level 1 class feat)

Also Multiclassing will have a feat that gets you a level 1 feat from your class IIRC.

Also Universalist Wizards get a class feat at 1st since they don't get a school power.

I think there are some other feats that give you a level 1 feat under some guidelines, like Order Explorer and Multifarious Muse.

All of these give cause for casters to have both level 1 feats and level 2 feats like every other class.

EDIT: Curse you, ninja cabbage!


Two of the theses also give a first level feat. A wizard can start with 0-3 1st level feats now instead of 1-4.


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So only a half/human Universalist with Natural Ambition and Improved Familiar Attunement or Metamagical Experimentation or a gnome Universalist with Animal Elocutionist and Improved Familiar Attunement can get 3 feats at first level? Okay. That's good to know, and explains why Ezren had 3 feats when he should have had 4 according to the rules as written.


I’ll repeat Gisher’s question. What/when/where are Pathfinder Fridays?


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4pm Pacific on Fridays on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/officialpaizo


Reading blogs, listening to podcasts, watching twitch. How many different places do we have to keep up with to get errata? LOL


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And then posted to the Paizo YouTube channel

Pathfinder Friday


CrystalSeas wrote:

And then posted to the Paizo YouTube channel

Pathfinder Friday

Good to know. I like to notate my pdf with where they clarified a rule, and Twitch uses fuzzy dates e.g. “2 weeks ago.”


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I do hope they can come out soon and announce how they're going to issue updates. Since trickling in from streams people watch isn't great.

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