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How is this party going to take down a storm lord? Or a level 5 wizard with fly? Or even a level 1 lantern archon in a friendly contest?
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they can really entrap enemies in nasty catch-22s.
HIT ME
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they can really entrap enemies in nasty catch-22s.HIT ME
I love it.
When everyone on the opposing party starts flashing obscene gestures religious items and shouting, 'come at me bro'. Maybe you should re-think things a bit.
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"So that's why we've decided to make an all champion team!'
GM nods, confused, and just notes down "Use spells, I guess?" in his notebook.
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It's a catch-22 only if you have a group that does does roleplay equilevant of memes.
Which is luckily a minority and not /really/ an issue.
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I mean, it makes sense that they made the bodyguard class good in a military formation with other bodyguards. Something feels right about that.
It for sure is a nasty combination, even with just two champion frontliners, but it does have enough weaknesses that it's not a no-brainer.
Interestingly, for those like me who have always enjoyed the offensive focused paladin image, two PF2 paladins diving into enemy lines now makes a WHOLE LOT more sense.
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And is anyone terrified?
I kinda want to run a PbP arena game vs Colette's Avengers :)
It is situationally strong I'll grant that much; but doesn't look unbeatable by a standard AP encounter spread.
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Just have at least 1 person multiclass into Barb and take the Come At me Bro feat to bait them in.
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I ran an all paladin campaign in PF1, and they likewise were daunting in a different way. By about 8th level, thanks to Selective Channeling and one PC with Channel Ray, plus everyone having the ability to lay hands on themselves as a swift action, trying to deal damage was a Sisyphean task.
I got used to it. But when the group capped out at 18th level, I recall an encounter where the aasimar paladin with angel wings got caught by surprise by a pit fiend who full attacked him. Before said PC got to his turn, he was healed back to full by the rest of the party, and then the PC activated his boots of haste, smote, and made I think 7 attacks. It died that turn.
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Haha, champion battle-buddies. Nice. Now I want to see how viable I can make a party of six champions, two of each alignment, each multiclassed differently... XD
Not to be a pedant, but what are the conflicting or dependent conditions here? If I hit the enemy, I get hit; but I need to hit the enemy to win?
You want to hit someone and be as effective as possible. If you hit Paladin A he will take reduced damage and Paladin B will hit you. Therefore it makes more sense to hit Paladin B, but in that case he will take reduced damage and Paladin A will hit you. That the downsides in each case in your decision making scenario are identical doesn't make it not a catch 22.
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Not to be a pedant, but what are the conflicting or dependent conditions here? If I hit the enemy, I get hit; but I need to hit the enemy to win?You want to hit someone and be as effective as possible. If you hit Paladin A he will take reduced damage and Paladin B will hit you. Therefore it makes more sense to hit Paladin B, but in that case he will take reduced damage and Paladin A will hit you. That the downsides in each case in your decision making scenario are identical doesn't make it not a catch 22.
It does when you’re assuming only melee attacks exists.
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It does when you’re assuming only melee attacks exists.Not to be a pedant, but what are the conflicting or dependent conditions here? If I hit the enemy, I get hit; but I need to hit the enemy to win?You want to hit someone and be as effective as possible. If you hit Paladin A he will take reduced damage and Paladin B will hit you. Therefore it makes more sense to hit Paladin B, but in that case he will take reduced damage and Paladin A will hit you. That the downsides in each case in your decision making scenario are identical doesn't make it not a catch 22.
Vacuum white room combined with the worst case scenarios that never happen is the name of the game.
It does when you’re assuming only melee attacks exists.
I was responding to the claim that it was a total misuse of the term catch-22, which it clearly isn't. If you want to insist it be phrased as "it's a catch-22 for monsters that have nothing but melee attacks" that's not a conversation I'm interested in participating in.
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Just throwing this out there, but a catch-22 is being trapped or forced into a situation by contradictory rules.
You're proposing that "Creature A can't attack anything because doing so would mean he gets attacked all the same," implies that those are his only actions. He's not trapped, there's an escape, he's not forced into attacking.
In a world where creatures are video game monsters programmed to only follow the coding, opening them up to exploits, I could maybe see the argument. This is just, "One neat trick!" as I mentioned before.
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Perhaps the biggest issue with the champion class is that it is made to fight in tight, cramped, indoor spaces (e.g. a typical Paizo premade adventure dungeon). Champion's Reaction really, really does not work too well in set piece battles with larger maps, and it is unreasonable for a champion to ask their allies to constantly stay within 15 feet.
Is it a catch-22? Absolutely. Can the catch-22 be circumvented? Yes, much like many catch-22s.
A circumvented catch-22 is as much of a catch-22 as a safe with it's door missing a closed container.
A catch-22 is a paradoxical situation from which an individual cannot escape because of contradictory rules or limitations.
I think the biggest issue is making up scenarios where a silly thing might make sense. Like if two trolls punch each other each round, none will die, ergo trolls are immortal.
The champion ability can be dealt with at range, and if a few of them stack, it's just makes everything easier because aoe is a thing.
Just throwing this out there, but a catch-22 is being trapped or forced into a situation by contradictory rules.
By this logic the catch-22 in the novel catch-22 isn't a catch-22, you can always just commit suicide or go to military prison rather than fly the missions.
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The champion ability can be dealt with at range, and if a few of them stack, it's just makes everything easier because aoe is a thing.
The lich looks down at the champion formation, their gnomish flickmaces dangling from their hands, each spaced perfectly to protect each other.
"Wow, guys," he says. "Really impressive." Casts Cloudkill into a quickened Chain Lightning. "I mean, just... wow."
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Just throwing this out there, but a catch-22 is being trapped or forced into a situation by contradictory rules.By this logic the catch-22 in the novel catch-22 isn't a catch-22, you can always just commit suicide or go to military prison rather than fly the missions.
I think those definitely count as "not options." I mean, for instance, a goblin could grapple one of the champions. A bugbear might trip them. A lizardman might disarm them.
I'm not saying, "Haha, you dummies, you could just commit suicide. Then you're escaping the riddle!" I'm saying, it's not a catch-22 when you have numerous ways out of the "trap."
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A 6th-level champion and a 6th-level fighter multiclassing into champion flank an enemy. Both of these characters have Ranged Retribution and Attack of Opportunity. The enemy's choices have been severely constricted here, due to the various reactions that both characters can throw up. That sounds like a catch-22 to me.
"The goblin grapples the champion. His goblin allies hit the other one with sticks." Look, you can say it's an interesting or neat trick, but it isn't a catch-22.
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It is a good and synergistic combat strategy against SOME enemies in SOME places but far from all of them and I doubt it's even majority. Calling it a "terrifying catch-22" implies that it somehow trivializes every difficult encounter which it doesn't quite pull off.
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It does when you’re assuming only melee attacks exists.I was responding to the claim that it was a total misuse of the term catch-22, which it clearly isn't. If you want to insist it be phrased as "it's a catch-22 for monsters that have nothing but melee attacks" that's not a conversation I'm interested in participating in.
I'm not.
A situation that you have less, but still plenty of options is not Catch-22.
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The champion ability can be dealt with at range, and if a few of them stack, it's just makes everything easier because aoe is a thing.The lich looks down at the champion formation, their gnomish flickmaces dangling from their hands, each spaced perfectly to protect each other.
"Wow, guys," he says. "Really impressive." Casts Cloudkill into a quickened Chain Lightning. "I mean, just... wow."
The brave 300...no wait, they got gassed and electrocuted. The 300 dumbasses.
The champion phalanx moves through the dungeon corridors, sure that the tactic sent from their god Katch Tenty-To was perfect. Aals they were gassed, electroctured and then skewered by a few penetrating shots. The last to die raises his fist towards the sky and sputters a bloody curse. "Pox upon you Katch Tenty-to!"
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"The goblin grapples the champion. His goblin allies hit the other one with sticks." Look, you can say it's an interesting or neat trick, but it isn't a catch-22.Is this situation actually that practical for the enemies? The only goblin with decent Athletics in the bestiary is the goblin commando, who has to drop their horsechopper to attempt this. Even then, being grappled does not actually stop Champion's Reaction.
Yes that would be practical in that situation.
And it does stop it, unless they're a CG Champion.