Yes, but how is it a catch-22?
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Grapple doesn't provoke the Reaction, and from my reading of Tumble it doesn't provoke AoO from movement if you're successful, though that very well could be an error.
The failure does specifically call out triggering movement-based reactions however, so seems to bee an error from my estimate. Still doesn't change the point that the goalposts for this neat trick are shifting farther and farther with every post.
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Perhaps the biggest issue with the champion class is that it is made to fight in tight, cramped, indoor spaces (e.g. a typical Paizo premade adventure dungeon). Champion's Reaction really, really does not work too well in set piece battles with larger maps, and it is unreasonable for a champion to ask their allies to constantly stay within 15 feet.
Is it a catch-22? Absolutely. Can the catch-22 be circumvented? Yes, much like many catch-22s.
You keep saying things like "the biggest issue", when really it should be "my biggest issue" since your opinion is not fact.
...so attacking PCs that have reactions is a catch-22? Look, this is your out. You can call it like, "a hard choice" for a creature.
"Oh gee gosh, if I attack, that guy is gonna hit me," is not a catch-22, it's disincentivizing attacking. If you're the type of GM that wants to outwit their players and not make their powers feel special, it's very easy to avoid and counter. We've made NUMEROUS examples throughout the thread.
You just don't want to admit that it's not a catch-22 and that is sort of telling.
It is a catch-22 because it places enemies in a "damned if you do, damned if you do not" situation. The playstyle of the champion class itself revolves around catch-22s: "I am in heavy armor, and I have my shield raised. You can attack my allies and take a Champion's Reaction, or you can attack durable me and go through my Shield Block."
If the champion class had no catch-22s to it, then it would not be a decent class.
Tumble's failure mentions reactions because you never move out of your space to begin with, yet provoke reactions anyway.
Or the enemy moves past the Champion and attacks an ally 30 ft. away from said Champion. Or backs up out of your reach and shoots the ally. Or does... a whole lot of other things that aren't going to get Retributive Strike, or attacking the Champion.
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It's not a catch-22, though. Like, at all.
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It's not a catch-22.
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It is a catch-22 because it places enemies in a "damned if you do, damned if you do not" situation. The playstyle of the champion class itself revolves around catch-22s: "I am in heavy armor, and I have my shield raised. You can attack my allies and take a Champion's Reaction, or you can attack durable me and go through my Shield Block."
If the champion class had no catch-22s to it, then it would not be a decent class.
Tumble's failure mentions reactions because you never move out of your space to begin with, yet provoke reactions anyway.
It's less "Damned if I do, Damned if I don't" and more "melee with 4 heavily armored holy warriors with glaives is a bad idea." Which is pretty appropriate IMO.
for those wondering about the origins of catch 22 and what it actually means, it's from a vietnam book.
i forget that exact narrative but a character is remarking over a strange phenomenon.
Those who are clinically insane are discharged back to america and since only the insane would want to stay in vietnam anyone who wants to stay is sent home and anyone who wants to go home is forced to stay.
it's a system which specifically finds a way to make all involved forced out of what they'd like to do or find preferable.
Grapple doesn't provoke the Reaction, and from my reading of Tumble it doesn't provoke AoO from movement if you're successful, though that very well could be an error.
Can we grapple two enemies since it only requires one hand?
I'll add some echo.
It's not a catch-22 situation.
It's not even remotely close, the amount of reaching is actually kind of amazing.
A true Catch-22 is an inescapable loop.
And language evolves and the definition and colloquial usage no longer conforms to the exact form as presented in the novel 60 years ago.
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I came here to discuss what I thought would be a good mechanical strategy and party optimization routine. I never said it was perfect or 100% without holes; any form of optimization has its weak points, but that does not mean it is not optimized.
Apparently, people are more interested in bringing up semantics and syntax errors (in a forum with a highly limited ability to edit posts) instead. This does not exactly seem like the best venue to discuss mechanics and optimization in an in-depth manner.
A catch-22 has no holes, so it was everything but perfect. It was in fact the very opposite. The funny thing is if you posted this as a "silly team setup" sort of post, it'd probably be a decent laugh.
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I came here to discuss what I thought would be a good mechanical strategy and party optimization routine. I never said it was perfect or 100% without holes; any form of optimization has its weak points, but that does not mean it is not optimized.
Apparently, people are more interested in bringing up semantics and syntax errors (in a forum with a highly limited ability to edit posts) instead. This does not exactly seem like the best venue to discuss mechanics and optimization in an in-depth manner.
Put simply, if you're the type of person who won't admit to being wrong even when faced with an overwhelming amount of evidence that you are, you aren't here to discuss anything. You're here to make baseless claims.
If you won't engage with the people having the discussion, it isn't a discussion is it?
And language evolves and the definition and colloquial usage no longer conforms to the exact form as presented in the novel 60 years ago.A true Catch-22 is an inescapable loop.
It's evolved in such a way that everyone here is going to point out it's... wrong? Boy, that's a real Sophie's Choice.